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Offline Thewolf  
#1 Posted : 01 January 2020 11:53:19(UTC)
Thewolf

Canada   
Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 2,035
Location: Saint Mathias dur Richelieu-Canada
Hi guys Cool

A question came to mind:
A layout and the rights of its designer.

I wonder if every designer of a route has property rights on his layout?

If while surfing on the forum or anywhere else on the net, I spot a layout that is exactly the one I want to make.

Can I reproduce it without asking for anything or do I have to do something?

Personally, my conscience of respect for the laws pushes me to ask the designer for permission.

But in reality, what is it like?

Thewolf
Project The Richelieu Valley Railway-CS2-Track C- Itrain-Digital
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 01 January 2020 13:22:03(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Hi Thewolf

IMO, if you spot something (a layout) on the public domain (TV show, exhibition, book,..) you are perfectly entitled to reproduce / replicate / take inspiration it for your own usage (i.e.: do not try to sell it as a business).
If on the other hand you want to distribute , sell, even without profit, then you must check if there are restrictions, deposed model, copyright before starting your business activity.
PS! it is common practice to take inspiration from other layouts, real landscape for your own creation.
Cheers

Jean
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Offline Thewolf  
#3 Posted : 01 January 2020 13:31:39(UTC)
Thewolf

Canada   
Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 2,035
Location: Saint Mathias dur Richelieu-Canada
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Thewolf

IMO, if you spot something (a layout) on the public domain (TV show, exhibition, book,..) you are perfectly entitled to reproduce / replicate / take inspiration it for your own usage (i.e.: do not try to sell it as a business).
If on the other hand you want to distribute , sell, even without profit, then you must check if there are restrictions, deposed model, copyright before starting your business activity.
PS! it is common practice to take inspiration from other layouts, real landscape for your own creation.
Cheers

Jean


Thank you JeanCool

That's what I thought.

I found the layout I needed here on this forum. In all conscience, I sent an MP and an e-mail to the member to let him know that I was going to strongly inspire myself from his layout.

I feel calmer.

Thewolf
Project The Richelieu Valley Railway-CS2-Track C- Itrain-Digital
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Offline SteamNut  
#4 Posted : 01 January 2020 13:32:37(UTC)
SteamNut

United States   
Joined: 11/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 488
Unless you try to sell the design you should not run into any troubles. You can contact the designer and say you are you using their design, most likely they will consider it a form of flattery.
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Offline Martti Mäntylä  
#5 Posted : 01 January 2020 14:59:24(UTC)
Martti Mäntylä

Finland   
Joined: 15/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 397
Location: Uusimaa, Helsinki
Does the creator claim copyright for his work? If not, you can safely assume that he/she has placed it in public domain. Then you can use the layout in any way you wish, including republishing it. Of course, good manners suggest that even then credit is given to the original creator. And asking for permission as suggested by SteamNut is a nice gesture that will be appreciated.

If the creator claims a copyright for the layout, then it should be honoured. As Wikipedia states, "Copyright is the exclusive right given to the creator of a creative work to reproduce the work". To be on the safe side, one should not republish such a layout in this forum, for instance, unless the creator has explicitly given a permission to it through a public license such as Creative Commons licenses.

For instance, the Märklin Magazin Gleispläne are explicitly copyrighted by Märklin, and should not be reproduced, say, in this forum. (Embedding a link to them, as I just did, is in my understanding OK.) You can still build one of these layouts and publish pictures and videos of it as much as you like - the whole point of publishing them was to encourage such behaviour.
- Martti M.
Era III analog & digital (Rocrail, CAN Digital Bahn, Gleisbox/MS2, K83/K84), C & M tracks, some Spur 1
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Offline Thewolf  
#6 Posted : 01 January 2020 15:23:50(UTC)
Thewolf

Canada   
Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 2,035
Location: Saint Mathias dur Richelieu-Canada
Originally Posted by: Martti Mäntylä Go to Quoted Post
Does the creator claim copyright for his work? If not, you can safely assume that he/she has placed it in public domain. Then you can use the layout in any way you wish, including republishing it. Of course, good manners suggest that even then credit is given to the original creator. And asking for permission as suggested by SteamNut is a nice gesture that will be appreciated.

If the creator claims a copyright for the layout, then it should be honoured. As Wikipedia states, "Copyright is the exclusive right given to the creator of a creative work to reproduce the work". To be on the safe side, one should not republish such a layout in this forum, for instance, unless the creator has explicitly given a permission to it through a public license such as Creative Commons licenses.

For instance, the Märklin Magazin Gleispläne are explicitly copyrighted by Märklin, and should not be reproduced, say, in this forum. (Embedding a link to them, as I just did, is in my understanding OK.) You can still build one of these layouts and publish pictures and videos of it as much as you like - the whole point of publishing them was to encourage such behaviour.


Thank you Cool

I bring friendly to your attention that I have already sent a PM to the designer who is a member of this forum, long before the comments here.Cool

Thewolf
Project The Richelieu Valley Railway-CS2-Track C- Itrain-Digital
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#7 Posted : 01 January 2020 19:15:04(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Martti Mäntylä Go to Quoted Post
Does the creator claim copyright for his work? If not, you can safely assume that he/she has placed it in public domain. Then you can use the layout in any way you wish, including republishing it. Of course, good manners suggest that even then credit is given to the original creator. And asking for permission as suggested by SteamNut is a nice gesture that will be appreciated.

If the creator claims a copyright for the layout, then it should be honoured. As Wikipedia states, "Copyright is the exclusive right given to the creator of a creative work to reproduce the work". To be on the safe side, one should not republish such a layout in this forum, for instance, unless the creator has explicitly given a permission to it through a public license such as Creative Commons licenses.

For instance, the Märklin Magazin Gleispläne are explicitly copyrighted by Märklin, and should not be reproduced, say, in this forum. (Embedding a link to them, as I just did, is in my understanding OK.) You can still build one of these layouts and publish pictures and videos of it as much as you like - the whole point of publishing them was to encourage such behaviour.


Any item you publish has automatic copyright, even it not explicitly claimed. Explicitly putting an item into the public domain is the only way to remove copyright. Lack of a copyright annotation does NOT mean you can safely assume it is in the public domain.

If using an item like the wolf wants to then I believe that he can do so under 'creative commons' usage - but IANAL (I am Not A Lawyer). If referencing where the inspiration came from then by all means provide a link to the original material. In any 'blurb' about the layout it is only good manners to list where the inspiration comes from.

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Offline Thewolf  
#8 Posted : 01 January 2020 20:05:14(UTC)
Thewolf

Canada   
Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 2,035
Location: Saint Mathias dur Richelieu-Canada
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Martti Mäntylä Go to Quoted Post
Does the creator claim copyright for his work? If not, you can safely assume that he/she has placed it in public domain. Then you can use the layout in any way you wish, including republishing it. Of course, good manners suggest that even then credit is given to the original creator. And asking for permission as suggested by SteamNut is a nice gesture that will be appreciated.

If the creator claims a copyright for the layout, then it should be honoured. As Wikipedia states, "Copyright is the exclusive right given to the creator of a creative work to reproduce the work". To be on the safe side, one should not republish such a layout in this forum, for instance, unless the creator has explicitly given a permission to it through a public license such as Creative Commons licenses.

For instance, the Märklin Magazin Gleispläne are explicitly copyrighted by Märklin, and should not be reproduced, say, in this forum. (Embedding a link to them, as I just did, is in my understanding OK.) You can still build one of these layouts and publish pictures and videos of it as much as you like - the whole point of publishing them was to encourage such behaviour.


Any item you publish has automatic copyright, even it not explicitly claimed. Explicitly putting an item into the public domain is the only way to remove copyright. Lack of a copyright annotation does NOT mean you can safely assume it is in the public domain.

If using an item like the wolf wants to then I believe that he can do so under 'creative commons' usage - but IANAL (I am Not A Lawyer). If referencing where the inspiration came from then by all means provide a link to the original material. In any 'blurb' about the layout it is only good manners to list where the inspiration comes from.



I agree Cool
Project The Richelieu Valley Railway-CS2-Track C- Itrain-Digital
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#9 Posted : 01 January 2020 21:25:43(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
This question came up a few years ago where some members were posting photos with 'Copyright' watermarks embedded in the photos. Juhan's position at that time was that he considered anything posted on the forum, including photos to be in the public domain and therefore able to be copied. If members wanted to assert copyright on something or the original poster did not have the rights to post an item then the advice was not to post it in the forum. I notice that some involved are now posting to Facebook which is more public domain than what the forum is!

Of course, it doesn't hurt to be courteous and advise the original poster that you want to copy/replicate/use their layout design, which Serge has already done.
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Offline David Dewar  
#10 Posted : 01 January 2020 21:44:19(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,333
Location: Scotland
The first person who put a circle round the Christmas tree must have a lot of folk wanting to copy his layout lol.

I like to design and make my own layout which then is my idea and work. Good fun making the design as well.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline Martti Mäntylä  
#11 Posted : 01 January 2020 21:53:25(UTC)
Martti Mäntylä

Finland   
Joined: 15/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 397
Location: Uusimaa, Helsinki
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post

Any item you publish has automatic copyright, even it not explicitly claimed. Explicitly putting an item into the public domain is the only way to remove copyright. Lack of a copyright annotation does NOT mean you can safely assume it is in the public domain.

Yes, this is correct - copyright is automatic. Nevertheless, I expect that creators who publish their works without claiming copyright probably do not plan to enforce their exclusive rights.
- Martti M.
Era III analog & digital (Rocrail, CAN Digital Bahn, Gleisbox/MS2, K83/K84), C & M tracks, some Spur 1
Offline Thewolf  
#12 Posted : 01 January 2020 22:31:55(UTC)
Thewolf

Canada   
Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 2,035
Location: Saint Mathias dur Richelieu-Canada
I have received the response from the member in question.Cool

He has no objection to my drawing on the work he did or using it. Cool

He wishes me well.Cool

I am able to work

I'll introduce you to my source when I publish my layout.Cool

Thewolf
Project The Richelieu Valley Railway-CS2-Track C- Itrain-Digital
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Offline rugauger  
#13 Posted : 02 January 2020 12:58:15(UTC)
rugauger

United Kingdom   
Joined: 19/12/2003(UTC)
Posts: 1,205
Location: Swindon, Wiltshire
Originally Posted by: SteamNut Go to Quoted Post
Unless you try to sell the design you should not run into any troubles. You can contact the designer and say you are you using their design, most likely they will consider it a form of flattery.


Indeed.
Richard
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Offline midwestbls  
#14 Posted : 02 January 2020 15:15:47(UTC)
midwestbls

United States   
Joined: 04/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 76
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
This question came up a few years ago where some members were posting photos with 'Copyright' watermarks embedded in the photos. Juhan's position at that time was that he considered anything posted on the forum, including photos to be in the public domain and therefore able to be copied. If members wanted to assert copyright on something or the original poster did not have the rights to post an item then the advice was not to post it in the forum. I notice that some involved are now posting to Facebook which is more public domain than what the forum is!

Of course, it doesn't hurt to be courteous and advise the original poster that you want to copy/replicate/use their layout design, which Serge has already done.


As already stated by another, a copyright - which exists with or without the (c) type or icon or in writing - exists for any original material published anywhere. Simply publishing your own unique work on a public forum does not waive an individual's legal copyright claim. A forum - such as this - may well have in its terms of use a statement that by posting to the site users give others a non-commercial license to copy or use the material privately (or for posting/re-posting in the forum), but this again doesn't waive a broader legal copyright.

Copyright generally protects commercial use - profiting from your own work, or the work of another. Here is a summary of the LEGAL fair use exceptions:

https://www.copyright.gov/fair-use/more-info.html

And as also mentioned many publishers, like Marklin magazine, even provide a special exception to allow for explicit copying if used for non-commercial, private use.

The personal message and request to copy, use, borrow whatever from another member's post, ideas, layout design, etc. is a great courtesy, and is really at the heart of how copyright was intended to to be used without a clear legal "fair use" exception and without a creator's explicit statement of allowing "non-commercial" use.

The key to copyright is COMMERCIAL use. Private, non-commercial use is broadly allowed.
ETE - Swiss Era III - BLS - Brig Station
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#15 Posted : 02 January 2020 16:34:31(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
I think you are quoting US law which is fine, but as this site is hosted out of Sweden I would think Swedish law would apply (whatever that is).
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Offline David Dewar  
#16 Posted : 02 January 2020 17:22:35(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,333
Location: Scotland
If anybody thinks a toy model layout should be copyright then they are in the wrong hobby. Some might get an idea from a part of anothers layout but why copy the whole layout. Most beginners will start with a circle and a siding etc of which there must be a few million but it can hardly be copyright.
In my view the point of the hobby is making your own layout. You can of course try to copy a real local station but I doubt the railway company will have a copyright. We have an expensive hobby but it supposed to be fun and why should anybody care if two or more layouts happen to be the same or similar.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline 1borna  
#17 Posted : 02 January 2020 20:40:24(UTC)
1borna

Croatia   
Joined: 21/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,340
Location: Hrvatska
I don't think you're going to copy someone's layout or any part of it exactly in every detail?
Even the simplest layout with a single circle can be made in a hundred ways, let alone something more complex.
Everyone can choose other objects, epochs, nature, etc.
         It's another matter when everything is going to be copied faithfully, such as some layout from Marklin's gleisplan, but then that is stated.
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