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Offline Pfalzbahn  
#1 Posted : 08 October 2019 01:56:53(UTC)
Pfalzbahn

United States   
Joined: 05/10/2019(UTC)
Posts: 42
Location: Pennsylvania,
Recently my DKW lost power on the 2 points indicated with the red line.
Since the DKW is installed I would like to restore power to the 2 points by using a suitable electric conductive paint to connect them to the points indicated by the blue lines. I feel this should work since there is no possible contact to train wheels or ground.

I would appreciate your thoughts on this and possibly a suggestion which conduct paint to get.

Thanks,

Pfalzbahn

IMG_3131.jpg

Offline river6109  
#2 Posted : 08 October 2019 04:28:50(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,613
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
You always could try using a pair of pliers and raise the middle stud and are you sure its the middle stud and not the track itself
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline JohnjeanB  
#3 Posted : 08 October 2019 10:32:31(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 574
Location: Paris, France
Hi Pfalzbahn

Not willing to be too pessimistic but you have to remove the double slip switch and open it.
Conductive paint will not do: not enough conductivity and here this is the right spot to obtain short-circuits.
It is likely a short that caused the initial issue (the Puko is very close to the wheels)
Cheers
Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
Offline hxmiesa  
#4 Posted : 08 October 2019 13:32:50(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,740
Location: Spain
How do you know that the pukos doenst have power? -Did you use a multi-meter, or maybe a lamp with two wires? (Because if you say it just because the trains stalls in the middle of the track, then I wouldnt be so sure, and it is probably a short, as johnjeanb mentions ;-)
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline JohnjeanB  
#5 Posted : 08 October 2019 15:12:40(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 574
Location: Paris, France
Hi again Pfalzbahn

Looking more closely at your picture (making it much bigger) it seems very much that this is a dummy pucko aimed at raising the slider so that it does not touch the rails in the middle (look at the fixed frog pucko that seems to be made of insulating material) So you may have a slider issue and not a Double slip issue. Of course I may be wrong.
Cheers
Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
Offline river6109  
#6 Posted : 08 October 2019 19:01:09(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,613
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
All pukos have power or should have power, there are no dummies. I still think its the track and not the pukos
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline applor  
#7 Posted : 10 October 2019 00:36:17(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,400
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I also find it unlikely that those middle pukos are no longer electrically conductive.

It may seem they are not conductive when trains stop in the middle due to no power but it can be the slider/pickup - those sliders with the centre hole lose power when it reaches the puko and it drops into the hole LOL

Are all of your locomotives affected by loss of power? Do they have centre hole sliders?

No power on the wide DKW is also caused by loss of earth on small locos, often dependant on the direction.


Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
All pukos have power or should have power, there are no dummies. I still think its the track and not the pukos


Actually on the K track switches there is a couple of dummy pukos where the rails are connected by earth.
The sleeper with the dummy puko has metal in it to join the two rails electrically, so you cannot have an (active) puko in the middle of the sleeper.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
Offline JohnjeanB  
#8 Posted : 10 October 2019 23:28:00(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 574
Location: Paris, France
Hi Pfaltzbahn



I found this thread on Stummi Forum about the 2275 DKW (double slip point) -->https://www.stummiforum.de/viewtopic.php?t=105938 Look at it slightly past half way. It dates back 2014.
At the time it was found to cause almost always shorts. The solution was to increase the Wheel spacing to 14.1 mm and to add some paint on the side of the pucko to avoid shorts with passing wheels.

I know it is not exactly your problem BUT
- Either Märklin has changed their 2275 to have a dummy pucko there (I don"t know, would they continue to deliver non operative units?)
- Or the Pucko is left unchanged and in this case it is made of thick stamped and bent metal (surface treated iron) on which there is almost no chance that anything can stop the pucko to bring power.
So please check again your unit. Thanks
Cheers

Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
Offline Minok  
#9 Posted : 10 October 2019 23:52:27(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,075
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
I would warn against using conductive paint. Assuming the issue is indeed that something under the track has broken connectivity to there (which I see is still a discussion point and I'm not addressing)....

You would be pushing some current through there, and getting the paint on thick enough that you don't have substantial resistance which could heat up the painted area. Conductive paint for higher current loads, if the paint is normal paint thickness, is a fire hazard risk source.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
Offline Pfalzbahn  
#10 Posted : 11 October 2019 02:16:07(UTC)
Pfalzbahn

United States   
Joined: 05/10/2019(UTC)
Posts: 42
Location: Pennsylvania,
Thanks everybody for your thoughts.

The 2 pukos in question are powered at all my other DKW's! I experience the loss of power with all my engines.
Probably I have to take the DKW out and open it up to see what's wrong.

Pfalzbahn
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Pfalzbahn
Offline river6109  
#11 Posted : 11 October 2019 08:41:11(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,613
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Pfalzbahn Go to Quoted Post
Thanks everybody for your thoughts.

The 2 pukos in question are powered at all my other DKW's! I experience the loss of power with all my engines.
Probably I have to take the DKW out and open it up to see what's wrong.

Pfalzbahn


I've had similar problems with these turnouts until I've used a screwdriver and found out where the dead spot was, its been a long time since than but I remember it was the track and not the puko unless as I've mentioned before the puko is no longer high enough to have any contact with the slider.
to get shorts it was most the time the 2 pukos in the middle of the turnout have to be snug against the plastic part otherwise a wheel could have contact with it and shortens the loco.
you will find there is nothing visible you can put finger on it so a thorough manual investigation has to be undertaken.,

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Pfalzbahn  
#12 Posted : 16 October 2019 00:26:30(UTC)
Pfalzbahn

United States   
Joined: 05/10/2019(UTC)
Posts: 42
Location: Pennsylvania,
John,

the 2 pukos in question are dead, they have no current contrary to those pukos in my other DKW!

Pfalzbahn
Offline river6109  
#13 Posted : 21 October 2019 07:25:30(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,613
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Pfalzbahn Go to Quoted Post
John,

the 2 pukos in question are dead, they have no current contrary to those pukos in my other DKW!

Pfalzbahn


Well I've got some news for you, if they are dead which is impossible you've got a dead double switch.

at some time a loco will have contact with these pukos which causes a short and the best thing to do is bent it towards the plastic insert. so the wheel can't touch it.
it still doesn't solve the issue with no contact and if the owner of this topic has got some time he may follow up my suggestions.
We are here to help but some times help doesn't seem to be the major issue rather divert an issue to something else.
all you need a multimeter and find out what actually happens.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline hxmiesa  
#14 Posted : 21 October 2019 13:24:12(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,740
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Pfalzbahn Go to Quoted Post

the 2 pukos in question are dead, they have no current contrary to those pukos in my other DKW!

...and if the owner of this topic has got some time he may follow up my suggestions.

Huh¿? Pfalzbahn IS the original poster!
Or did I miss something?
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline river6109  
#15 Posted : 21 October 2019 17:52:57(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,613
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Pfalzbahn Go to Quoted Post

the 2 pukos in question are dead, they have no current contrary to those pukos in my other DKW!

...and if the owner of this topic has got some time he may follow up my suggestions.

Huh¿? Pfalzbahn IS the original poster!
Or did I miss something?


Oh well you can't win them all, I didn't realize Pfalzbahn was the original topic, if they are dead (2 pukos) which I can't see because the whole puko plate is in 1 piece.

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Pfalzbahn  
#16 Posted : 22 October 2019 01:27:44(UTC)
Pfalzbahn

United States   
Joined: 05/10/2019(UTC)
Posts: 42
Location: Pennsylvania,
John,

I don't understand this sentence " if they are dead which is impossible you've got a dead double switch."

The multimeter tells clearly that the 2 pukos in question are dead.

When the shoe of the loco touches those pukos there is no short - the loco just stops. The wheels do not touch the pukos.

Pfalzbahn
Offline river6109  
#17 Posted : 22 October 2019 04:53:30(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,613
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Pfalzbahn Go to Quoted Post
John,

I don't understand this sentence " if they are dead which is impossible you've got a dead double switch."

The multimeter tells clearly that the 2 pukos in question are dead.

When the shoe of the loco touches those pukos there is no short - the loco just stops. The wheels do not touch the pukos.

Pfalzbahn


When you use your multimeter are you touching the 2 Pukos at the same time ? I'll get back to you and will investigate it myself.

My memory is that the 2 Pukos caused a short when the wheel went past it., other problems I had on occasions, there was no electrical contact from the track to the wheels and I added a brown wire.

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Pfalzbahn  
#18 Posted : 22 October 2019 23:44:07(UTC)
Pfalzbahn

United States   
Joined: 05/10/2019(UTC)
Posts: 42
Location: Pennsylvania,
John,

The multimeter touches always one puko and the track (ground) and there is no current. On my other DKW's I always see the current on those pukos in question.

Pfalzbahn
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Pfalzbahn
Offline hxmiesa  
#19 Posted : 23 October 2019 08:55:08(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,740
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: Pfalzbahn Go to Quoted Post
John,
The multimeter touches always one puko and the track (ground) and there is no current. On my other DKW's I always see the current on those pukos in question.

Okay, so we have to look for something more exceptional.
As you state in your first post that it has lost power "recently", I understand that it once worked.
So, what can cut power on an installed turnout after (maybe) years?
RUST! As you say that the track is "installed", does that mean that it has been ballasted? -K-track is notoriously known for rusting the puko strings, once even just slightly in contact with water.
Maybe you can get to look at the underside of some other piece of track (easier accessible), to see if rust has started on your layout.
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline JohnjeanB  
#20 Posted : 23 October 2019 15:01:13(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 574
Location: Paris, France
Hi Pfalzbahn
As said before for obvious cost & reliability reasons all puckos are made of one stamped soft steel .7mm thick . So the chances for one or two puckos not being powered are minuscule (to be respectful and polite) so either there is corrosion on the puckos or insulating residue
With your multimeter set to ohmmeter I suggest you verify the continuity of the pukos after having cleaned and bent the 2 center puckos towards each other (and so away from passing wheels)
Cheers

Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline Pfalzbahn  
#21 Posted : 24 October 2019 18:24:10(UTC)
Pfalzbahn

United States   
Joined: 05/10/2019(UTC)
Posts: 42
Location: Pennsylvania,
Henrik,

I am fairly confident to rule out a rust problem. My layout is never exposed to more than 50% relative humidity.

Jean,

I will verify the continuity.

Thank you both for your thoughts,

Pfalzbahn

Offline hxmiesa  
#22 Posted : 25 October 2019 10:20:03(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,740
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: Pfalzbahn Go to Quoted Post
I am fairly confident to rule out a rust problem. My layout is never exposed to more than 50% relative humidity.

Please dont rule it out just yet, until you have actually looked at the underside!
Just the residue of a single drop of white glue can rust away the pukos in less than a year!
Not the Modge-Podge or Elmers glue, but those new high-tech glues that dries in 10 minuttes and are "stronger than wood". They are so acid that they can eat a hole in the stamped puko-string plate, for example if the track is laid on top of a drop of glue fallen from the bottle.
I know it sounds far-fetched, but at this moment I think we have to look further, to find out what the problem is.

I am of course speaking from experience... Crying
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline river6109  
#23 Posted : 26 October 2019 17:24:12(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,613
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Junior member, the bottom metal plate is in one piece and all the pukos derive from there including the 2 mentioned on your diagram, I'm afraid you have to get back to your drawing board and find out what's what., unless you're willing to do a thorough investigation yourself , I'm afraid we are going to go in circles without getting nearer to the problem.
So far you have not included my theory there may be no contact from the track and unless you're willing to go through all possibilities your chance of finding the problem is very slim.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Pfalzbahn  
#24 Posted : 28 October 2019 23:28:01(UTC)
Pfalzbahn

United States   
Joined: 05/10/2019(UTC)
Posts: 42
Location: Pennsylvania,
Jean,

there is no continuity between the problem pukos and the other pukos.

Pfalzbahn
Offline river6109  
#25 Posted : 30 October 2019 10:36:24(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,613
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Pfalzbahn Go to Quoted Post
Jean,

there is no continuity between the problem pukos and the other pukos.

Pfalzbahn


There is your problem, I'm a bit perplexed with your findings, if you turn the double switch upside down you will find the bottom plate is in one piece and I'm very surprised you haven't found this out your self and yet you're continuing to persist there is no contact between the problem pukos and the rest of them.
How can you explain that ? can you got a photo from the underside of the double switch and the 4 ends of the connecting centre and rail lclips

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Pfalzbahn  
#26 Posted : 31 October 2019 02:00:08(UTC)
Pfalzbahn

United States   
Joined: 05/10/2019(UTC)
Posts: 42
Location: Pennsylvania,
John,

thanks for your comment. Here is the 'whole' picture of the double switch:

IMG_4818.jpg

The switch is not glued to the cork bed. I cannot explain why there is no contact of the problem pukos with the other pukos. All my other 9 double switches are installed the same way and they are working fine.

I've submitted the problem to a Maerklin "specialist" in Germany and I am awaiting for his response. If the response doesn't lead anywhere I will - hate doing it - open the track connectors and remove the double switch in order to see the bottom.

Besides the electrical conducting paint I would also consider to solder a tiny insulated copper wire from the problem puko to the adjacent puko. As long as the copper wire is below the height of the pukos there should be no interference with the pick-up shoes. And the wheels don't pass through that area.

Pfalzbahn
Offline river6109  
#27 Posted : 31 October 2019 07:18:16(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,613
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
It wouldn't take much effort to undo the screws from your k-tracks, lift the double switch up (there should be enough slack to remove the double switch) and find out why. I can't see Märklin is going to find why there is no contact, there are 4 pukos which are plastic on one side its the forth sleeper and the other side its the third sleeper, also there is no contact from the outside track to the adjacent inside track but there is contact from the outside track to the other side inside track, these turnouts seem to be in an excellent condition and I can't see there is anything wrong with them, I think you may have to start thinking outside the box and get your fixed idea in your head overturned before making drastic decisions which in my opinion aren't necessary.
One option I've mentioned about 3 times but you haven't answered me: is there contact from the track itself when a loco goes past ?
I've had similar problems in the past and one concentrates on a theory which I found out later wasn't the problem at all.

Good Luck

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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