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Offline husafreak  
#1 Posted : 18 May 2019 08:19:39(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 64
Location: California, Bay Area
My new 81451 set has a BR233 Tiger engine, from 2017. The manual says it has a 5 pole motor but it doesn't run anything like my older Marklin steam engines with 5 pole motors. In fact it is the most efficient engine in my collection requiring very little power, less than my Rokuhan DB loco or my AZL GP7 with the Faulhaber motor. The part number given is E211903. Why would my older 5 pole motors require turning my Rokuhan controller past half to get them going when this engine moves out at the crack of the throttle? And when did this new generation of 5 pole motors take over? How do they differ from the newest motors with bell shaped armatures?
Offline Poor Skeleton  
#2 Posted : 18 May 2019 13:46:35(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 107
Location: England, Cambridge
I think you must consider yourself very lucky! I have the 81451 set and the running of my locomotive is typical for 5-pole diesels. I think the gearing ratio is a little different than other diesels, so the maximum speed is not as high, but this doesn't seem to translate to better slow speed performance or more sensitivity to the track voltage. The motor in my tiger is the same type as in my other diesels.

The behaviour you describe does sound very much like the new coreless motors, which get going at lower track voltages and generally seem to run more smoothly. I'm not aware of the coreless motor superseding the 5-pole in this locomotive, but as the tooling becomes available for other new releases and, perhaps, supplies of the older motor running out, Marklin may quietly have made the switch. In which case, as I said, you should consider yourself very lucky!

All the best!


Chris
Offline husafreak  
#3 Posted : 18 May 2019 18:36:21(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 64
Location: California, Bay Area
Interesting. I just played with it a bit more to refresh my memory and my BR233 is quite a character! As stated it requires very little power to run, it is moving by the first mark on my Rokuhan controller and moving full speed by the second mark, that's the 9 o'clock position! It makes a rather loud whirring noise and can't run super slowly (it starts with a little jump) but it does run very well. One of its most unusual traits is when it gets around to the power pickup track on my test layout it surges ahead on its own! My test track has a 195R inner and 220R outer loop (Rokuhan Plan L) and it is great sport to match the throttles so that the BR233 slowly falls behind until reaching the power track, and then the Tiger comes alive and races back to the front! lap after lap it will do this. None of my other locos do this in a perceptible way. So anyway, I am realizing that the little Z loco BR233 I have is a bit "unusual" :)
I need to see if it behaves the same when driven with my Snail Speed Controller, that is a PWM output.
I'll try to post a video sometime of this engine in action. And I should have a look at its motor. And maybe see why all the noise. But you know I hate to pry open a really good runner...
I wish I could read or understand German as eXact Modelbau has hours of study of this loco and of course modifications to it that I cannot, or would not, do.
Offline Poor Skeleton  
#4 Posted : 19 May 2019 17:06:22(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 107
Location: England, Cambridge
That is really intriguing, and I don't have much of substance to contribute, I'm afraid.

I can confirm that the BR233 does make quite a whine whilst it's running, so I don't think the noise is unusual and does seem to imply it does have the 5-pole rather than coreless motor.

The surge in speed at the power feed implies to me that you have a bad connection one side of the feed track. If I'm right, I'd expect the loco suddenly to drop in speed after the feed track if you run it in the opposite direction.

One of my Ludmillas (at the risk of patronising you, this generic class of locomotive are known as Ludmillas) suffers poor pickup, which I've never been able fully to resolve and that is more pronounced on curves, so I have noticed its speed (and tolerance of dirty track) varies with straight or curved track (and depending on the direction of the curve).

I'm at a loss to explain the control characteristics of the loco, though. I suspect this is a quirk of the Rokuhan controller as much as it is with the locomotive itself.

Have fun!


Chris
Offline husafreak  
#5 Posted : 21 May 2019 07:24:36(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 64
Location: California, Bay Area
Well, my Ludmilla is named “Tiger” it says so on the loco! I know little about trains and see the generic name Ludmilla often so It’s a Ludmilla, but with a name.
I checked inside and it certainly looks like a standard 5 pole motor so here is my attempt at posting a picture and a video on the forum. Not really looking for an explanation anymore I just think it is a very interesting loco.
I don’t think its behavior is due to track or controller as none of my other locos exhibit funny behavior.

Edited by user 23 June 2019 18:16:51(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline husafreak  
#6 Posted : 21 May 2019 07:33:33(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 64
Location: California, Bay Area
Well, my video is on its side and not properly linked but if you highlight the link and select the "go to" function it works. Please bear with me while I try to figure out how to load and post videos correctly...
Offline husafreak  
#7 Posted : 21 May 2019 07:35:56(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 64
Location: California, Bay Area
removed
Offline husafreak  
#8 Posted : 21 May 2019 07:38:57(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 64
Location: California, Bay Area
..

Edited by user 23 June 2019 18:15:46(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline husafreak  
#9 Posted : 21 May 2019 07:49:35(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 64
Location: California, Bay Area
IMG_6281.JPG

Hopefully this is a picture of the motor... Which is obviously a 5 pole motor.
I realized I do have a loco which requires less power than this BR233, my Rokuhan Shorty which I use a a test vehicle. It needs a little less power.
Offline zoooctan  
#10 Posted : 07 September 2019 18:23:06(UTC)
zoooctan

Singapore   
Joined: 07/09/2019(UTC)
Posts: 1
Location: Singapore, Singapore
Originally Posted by: Poor Skeleton Go to Quoted Post
That is really intriguing, and I don't have much of substance to contribute, I'm afraid.

I can confirm that the BR233 does make quite a whine whilst it's running, so I don't think the noise is unusual and does seem to imply it does have the 5-pole rather than coreless motor.

The surge in speed at the power feed implies to me that you have a bad connection one side of the feed track. If I'm right, I'd expect the loco suddenly to drop in speed after the feed track if you run it in the opposite direction.

One of my Ludmillas (at the risk of patronising you, this generic class of locomotive are known as Ludmillas) suffers poor pickup, which I've never been able fully to resolve and that is more pronounced on curves, so I have noticed its speed (and tolerance of dirty track) varies with straight or curved track (and depending on the direction of the curve).

I'm at a loss to explain the control characteristics of the loco, though. I suspect this is a quirk of the Rokuhan controller as much as it is with the locomotive itself.

Have fun!


Chris


Hi there Chris, greetings from Singapore. I would really be interested to find out if you have ever discovered and solved the issue of the poor pickup on your Ludmilla. I'm experiencing the exact same thing on my Tiger Locomotive. I experience this both in analog and DCC. I'm convinced that it's due to the poor electrical pickup and agree that it is more pronounced though not limited to curves. Every other loco I have runs well on the same layout, so I'm positive it's the loco and not track or power related.

Thanks
Gavin
Offline Poor Skeleton  
#11 Posted : 07 September 2019 23:53:03(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 107
Location: England, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: zoooctan Go to Quoted Post

I would really be interested to find out if you have ever discovered and solved the issue of the poor pickup on your Ludmilla. I'm experiencing the exact same thing on my Tiger Locomotive.


I did quite a bit of diagnostic work and do now have this loco running much better. The maim problem was poor contact between some of the wheels and their pick-ups. I fixed this by gently polishing the pick-up contacts with a small piece of 2000 grit emery and then repeating the exercise on the backs of the wheels. I followed this up by cleaning the backs of the wheels with a micro-brush soaked with IPA. I have a power connection track from a starter set and I use this to apply power to one bogie (with the loco on its back) whilst I work on the other bogie with my abrasive and brush. Whilst you're at it, it's a good idea to make sure the treads of the wheels are clean as well.

With the loco on its back like this you can apply power to each pair of wheels in turn and identify any that aren't making contact and give them extra attention.

I've also found that the pickup between the bogies and chassis can be poor and cleaning the contacts here can be beneficial, as can checking things are making contact correctly. Sometimes a bit of adjustment on the contact wiper can be helpful. All of this said, I think there is a design flaw in the pickup arrangement where contact is lost at the extremes of bogie rotation.

So, careful and targeted cleaning has got this loco performing much better. It does seem quite prone to picking up muck on its wheels and electrical contacts, but that might just be because it is usually the first loco I run to pull the track cleaning wagon around.

Hope that helps, all the best


Chris
Offline husafreak  
#12 Posted : 08 September 2019 03:58:39(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 64
Location: California, Bay Area
Lots of good info there, haven’t had to do what you described yet but I’ll add it to my bag of tricks
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