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Offline steventrain  
#1 Posted : 13 July 2019 21:20:55(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,601
Location: United Kingdom
I across look at stummi forum as BR218 from 2019 new item and Tourism Train found poor quality painting livery.

Make sure you check before buying.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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Offline MaerklinLife  
#2 Posted : 13 July 2019 21:45:57(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
My guess is that this is a limitation with the printing technology. Roco has the same problems with their silberlinge.

Meaning: All locos will look that way. Whether it looks bad is up to the buyer. It is the way it looks.

I am not sure if I will go for the locos and coaches. I will need to see them in hand.
Offline steventrain  
#3 Posted : 14 July 2019 10:30:34(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,601
Location: United Kingdom
Member of Stummiforum post some images - >LINK TO STUMMIFORUM<
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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xxupONR
Offline kiwiAlan  
#4 Posted : 14 July 2019 17:56:31(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: steventrain Go to Quoted Post
Member of Stummiforum post some images - >LINK TO STUMMIFORUM<


Ouch, how did THAT get out of the factory Confused Confused Confused Confused Confused Confused Confused Confused

Offline Jimmy Thompson  
#5 Posted : 14 July 2019 18:24:50(UTC)
Jimmy Thompson

United States   
Joined: 26/03/2019(UTC)
Posts: 587
Location: Florida Classic but Successful Swampland City
Granting my "senior citizen" eyes, it almost looks like someone used the 33rd forward/download of the original digital photo of the prototype, which is a rather fuzzy 'impressionistic" application anyway (except for the DB-keks) Confused

The Eye of the Beholder

Jimmy
Jimmy T
Analogue; M-track; BR 111; KLVM; Primex; Sarrasani Zirkuswelt
There is a Prototype For Everything
Offline MaerklinLife  
#6 Posted : 15 July 2019 11:33:46(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Ouch, how did THAT get out of the factory Confused Confused Confused Confused Confused Confused Confused Confused

That is the result of the laser printing technology. It is just the way it is. It is not an error, although it looks horrible on a model. There is no need to take the model back, every model will look like that.

Roco has the same results with their printing. They also prints the numbering on the model which looks even worse. I have only seen some freight cars and the silberlinge, but they look horrible as well.

It may be that laser printing is cheaper (or whatever), but it does not help the overall feel of quality.

The only way to stop this is voting with our money! I will in the case of the Touristik train. Not going to pay for that.
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#7 Posted : 15 July 2019 14:52:09(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Ouch, how did THAT get out of the factory Confused Confused Confused Confused Confused Confused Confused Confused

That is the result of the laser printing technology. It is just the way it is. It is not an error, although it looks horrible on a model. There is no need to take the model back, every model will look like that.

Roco has the same results with their printing. They also prints the numbering on the model which looks even worse. I have only seen some freight cars and the silberlinge, but they look horrible as well.

It may be that laser printing is cheaper (or whatever), but it does not help the overall feel of quality.

The only way to stop this is voting with our money! I will in the case of the Touristik train. Not going to pay for that.


Well, it is ink jet printing that Marklin is using, and they use it on a model like this because of the colour graduations that you cannot get with tampon printing. But that is NOT an excuse for allowing the corners to be printed like that. Sure every model looks like this but that is because someone has taken a short cut with the printing process. It needs an extra stage with each corner printed seperate from the side to get it right.

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Offline MaerklinLife  
#8 Posted : 16 July 2019 09:10:12(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Well, it is ink jet printing that Marklin is using, and they use it on a model like this because of the colour graduations that you cannot get with tampon printing.

They may use ink jet, or both. I believe I have seen laser in one of their videos. And yes it allows for details not previously easily done with tampon printing. Anyway: My point was: it is the result of the printing technology, being either type.

And you're right, they need to get it right. I don't think it is ready for mass use on models. You mentioned the corners, but I also look at the blurry DB logo and the thousands of clearly visible small dots. I think we are far from "there" with regards to this technology.

It also looks like the DB logo sitting to far up on one side of the model. This is also annoying and looks weird because it sits in the bend between the lower and upper part of the front.
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Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 16 July 2019 12:15:09(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
I believe I have seen laser in one of their videos.
Would you share a link?

Using laser-cut for wood and cardboard makes sense. I cannot yet see how laser-printing could work for model locomotives - unless you print stickers and attach them to locos.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline kiwiAlan  
#10 Posted : 16 July 2019 16:34:02(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Well, it is ink jet printing that Marklin is using, and they use it on a model like this because of the colour graduations that you cannot get with tampon printing.

They may use ink jet, or both.


They definitely use ink jet printing, and the ink used is then UV Light cured to dry and harden it.

Any form of laser printing requires a rotating drum that contacts the printed medium, and that is impossible with a loco or wagon body.

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Offline 60904  
#11 Posted : 16 July 2019 18:23:06(UTC)
60904

Germany   
Joined: 27/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 312
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: steventrain Go to Quoted Post
Member of Stummiforum post some images - >LINK TO STUMMIFORUM<


Ouch, how did THAT get out of the factory Confused Confused Confused Confused Confused Confused Confused Confused



In big parcels through the factory doors (exit).
Greetings
Martin
Offline MaerklinLife  
#12 Posted : 16 July 2019 20:31:46(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Would you share a link?

Using laser-cut for wood and cardboard makes sense. I cannot yet see how laser-printing could work for model locomotives - unless you print stickers and attach them to locos.

I believe it was the video where they show how they printed the commercial over the windows of the Augsburger Puppenkiste LINT. I can't remember which episode. It looked like some sort of laser to me. I am no expert, so I might have been wrong.

Anyway, doesn't really matter as my point is still valid regardless of the tech in use: The printing doesn't look good.
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Offline Minok  
#13 Posted : 16 July 2019 20:56:42(UTC)
Minok

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Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Well that look is exactly on the catalog photo also, so its just like the catalog and thus, not unexpected.

If you want it to be super clean you need to hand-paint them (so you don't know what pattern variations you get and the cost goes way up), OR you need to bring in a special super high res printing technology and production machine that also increases the cost substantially.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
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My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline MaerklinLife  
#14 Posted : 17 July 2019 06:58:45(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Well that look is exactly on the catalog photo also, so its just like the catalog and thus, not unexpected.

A blurry DB logo, visible dotted printing and a DB logo that sits too high is not what the catalogue photo looks like. Also, take a look at the photo in the online database. It looks much better.

Each to his own, but I was not expecting what we got from what the pictures in the catalogue showed.

Yeees, you cannot always rely on the pictures in the catalogue, but I usually don't have to worry about blurry printing. So I was surprised by looking at the model. Not what I expected.

Unfortunately, I think we can expect to see more of this in the future. The trend seems to be that the manufacturers are replacing tampon printing with other tech.
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#15 Posted : 17 July 2019 14:56:42(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post

Unfortunately, I think we can expect to see more of this in the future. The trend seems to be that the manufacturers are replacing tampon printing with other tech.


I don't think that is the case. Tampon printing will still be used where there are sharp clean delimination between colours as it is faster and more automated than the ink jet printing.

The ink jet printer really only scores where there are no sharp edges between colours, or where colours fade in tint or between colours (as in the loco we are discussing).

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Offline MaerklinLife  
#16 Posted : 17 July 2019 17:04:38(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
I don't think that is the case. Tampon printing will still be used where there are sharp clean delimination between colours as it is faster and more automated than the ink jet printing.

It is more than just that. According to the German forum, and the pictures shows this as well, they also used it to print the loco numbers and the DB logo. Which is part of my critique. It is blurry and does not look sharp at all. Take a look at the photos and you will see what I mean.
Offline Minok  
#17 Posted : 17 July 2019 21:00:58(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Well that look is exactly on the catalog photo also, so its just like the catalog and thus, not unexpected.

A blurry DB logo, visible dotted printing and a DB logo that sits too high is not what the catalogue photo looks like. Also, take a look at the photo in the online database. It looks much better.


One issue is that smaller photos always look better as they hide the fine detail issues.
But the issue here does appear that the high volume production run quality is somewhat worse than the speckled pre-production model.

The window trim around the glass on the BR 103 from a few years ago were a good example of similar : the catalog showed the tightly sealed silver trim around the windows, and on the production models (that are not hand built) there are gaps here and there that let light leak out and look ill fitting, not so tightly fitted.

Hand built pre-production models always look better than the mast produced versions.

The DB logo does seem a mm or 2 higher up, so that it is on/over the crease.

Comparing the Märklin Catalog:
CaptureMarklinWebsite.PNG

With the Stummi Photo:
CaptureStumiFoto.PNG

Vs the original loco:
CaptureOriginal.PNG


Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline Minok  
#18 Posted : 17 July 2019 22:42:05(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Märklin have apparently issued a production stop to investigate and if warranted, address the digital printing.

From the MOBA Kramm FB group:
Quote:
"Märklin Informationen zur Touristiklokomotive 39218

Für den Bereich der Modelleisenbahn gilt dieser Satz wohl eher nicht. Im Gegenteil – der Farbgebung von Modellen, insbesondere wenn es sich um höchst farbenfreudige Modelle handelt, muss seitens der Hersteller ein besonderes Augenmerk gelten. Daher trifft es uns umso mehr, dass bezüglich der Farbgebung des Artikels 39218 (Diesellok BR 218 in Touristik-Lackierung) die eine oder andere Kritik an der digitalen Farbgebung geäußert wurde.

Wir haben daher mit sofortiger Wirkung die weitere Auslieferung der Modelle gestoppt, um zu prüfen, inwieweit die Kritik berechtigt ist und ggf. durch entsprechende Maßnahmen das Druckergebnis verbessert werden kann.

Hierbei ist zu berücksichtigen, dass auch im Original die Lokomotiven nicht mit Folien beklebt, sondern im Air-Brush-Verfahren direkt lackiert wurden.

Nachricht aus Göppingen vom 17.07.2019"



Quote:
Märklin Information about the tourist locomotive 39218

For the range of the model railway this sentence probably does not apply. On the contrary - the coloring of models, especially if they are highly colorful models, must be given special attention by the manufacturer. Therefore, it is also true that with regard to the coloring of article 39218 (diesel locomotive BR 218 in tourist paint), one or the other criticism of the digital color was expressed.

Therefore, we stopped the further delivery of the models with immediate effect in order to check to what extent the criticism is justified and, if necessary, the print result can be improved by appropriate measures.

This also takes into account that even in the original, the locomotives were not covered with foils, but directly in the air brush process were painted.

Message from Göppingen from 17.07.2019
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
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My YouTube Channel:
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#19 Posted : 17 July 2019 23:05:46(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
I don't think that is the case. Tampon printing will still be used where there are sharp clean delimination between colours as it is faster and more automated than the ink jet printing.

It is more than just that. According to the German forum, and the pictures shows this as well, they also used it to print the loco numbers and the DB logo. Which is part of my critique. It is blurry and does not look sharp at all. Take a look at the photos and you will see what I mean.


And those are items they should have used tampon printing for instead of including it in the ink jet print. But the beauty of ink jet printing is it can do all colours in one pass instead of requiring multiple prints a colour at a time.

But the blurry keks is another reason this item should never have left the factory.



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Offline mike c  
#20 Posted : 18 July 2019 00:37:18(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Roco had an issue with their production of the Bourret design Re 4/4II of the SBB. Deliveries were halted while Roco provided new shells with an improved paint job.
I do not know if models were sent back to Austria for the swap or whether it was done directly by the dealers.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline Nigel Packer  
#21 Posted : 20 July 2019 09:30:55(UTC)
Nigel Packer

United Kingdom   
Joined: 11/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 682
Location: Cheshire, UK
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post


And those are items they should have used tampon printing for instead of including it in the ink jet print. But the beauty of ink jet printing is it can do all colours in one pass instead of requiring multiple prints a colour at a time.

But the blurry keks is another reason this item should never have left the factory.




I understand that Märklin has promised to replace any non-perfect BR218 Touristik bodies. Since these are mhi models, I presume that any requests for replacements will need to be made via an mhi dealer.

Nigel
Märklin collector since age 5.
H0 Collection from 1935 to today.
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Offline steventrain  
#22 Posted : 22 July 2019 11:17:44(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,601
Location: United Kingdom
Email from Marklin.


The complaints about the locomotive 39218 are known and we are working on a solution.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline steventrain  
#23 Posted : 25 July 2019 20:34:16(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,601
Location: United Kingdom
Marklin 43878 coaches pack delivery date back to Q4 for checking painting.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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