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Offline mike c  
#1 Posted : 18 July 2019 02:44:10(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
I was looking forward to receiving my 79117 Hupac (SBB) "Nightpiercer" Vectron.
Over the past few days, I have read a few posts in German language forums about issues with the rendering of the Roco model.
Apparently, the "go" in SBB Cargo International is not lined up with the rest of the text.

There have also been reports of issues with the blue paint on the ends of the locomotive. I need to look into this further.

THIS IS A MESSAGE TO ROCO... I WILL NO LONGER ORDER MODELS IF I HAVE NOT SEEN THEM.
IF YOU CANNOT DELIVER THE MODELS AS ADVERTISED, I WILL SIMPLY STOP ADDING NEW MODELS TO MY COLLECTION.
PROPERLY LINING UP TEXT OR OVERLAPPING COLORS SHOULD BE CHILDS' PLAY
AND WHEN YOU ASK 300 EUR FOR A MODEL, I EXPECT THE WORK OF ADULTS.
GET YOUR HOUSE IN ORDER OR I WILL STOP ORDERS FROM YOUR HOUSE.

The same message can pretty much go out to Maerklin as well...

Respectfully yours,

Mike C

Edited by user 26 July 2019 01:56:58(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline DaleSchultz  
#2 Posted : 18 July 2019 02:55:04(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
this is a rather weird place to place an open letter to Roco.. they must be reading this forum all the time. Glad you sorted them out!
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline hxmiesa  
#3 Posted : 18 July 2019 09:09:16(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,519
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
Apparently, the "go" in SBB Cargo International is not lined up with the rest of the text.

The precision alignment comes in the small bag with add-on parts! Blink

Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline mario54i  
#4 Posted : 18 July 2019 09:51:12(UTC)
mario54i

Italy   
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 283
Location: Torino,
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post

Apparently, the "go" in SBB Cargo International is not lined up with the rest of the text.


Do you mean this ? I would say only the g



I don't understand if it's misaligned or bigger.




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Offline RayF  
#5 Posted : 18 July 2019 13:22:50(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I had to stare at it for a few seconds before I even noticed. I think the g is slightly high and the o is slightly low.

I've seen much worse on full size graphics....
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline petestra  
#6 Posted : 18 July 2019 14:27:07(UTC)
petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,824
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
Yes, upon close inspection it does NOT look right. For the good money we pay for these models this should definitely not be an issue. Peter.
Offline David Dewar  
#7 Posted : 18 July 2019 14:56:56(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,332
Location: Scotland
Would never have noticed until pointed out. After taking out the profit on our locos etc the cost to manufacture is fairly low and I am more concerned if there is a running fault in anything I would buy. However I don't buy Roco although I expect they are similar to most others.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline David Dewar  
#8 Posted : 18 July 2019 16:47:46(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,332
Location: Scotland
Having had another look is the writing not on a slope from left to right. Probably my eyesight or perhaps that is the way it should be.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#9 Posted : 18 July 2019 17:09:15(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
I truly think if one want to complain about such a 'defect' one should show the layout on which it is to run.

If there are wires showing, bits of plywood, glue, out of scale cars, cobwebs, all people are on 'skateboards' etc. then you have no case other than to acknowledge that you are a display case rivet counter, and not a model railroader. (Which is fine.)

Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline David Dewar  
#10 Posted : 18 July 2019 17:52:30(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,332
Location: Scotland
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
I truly think if one want to complain about such a 'defect' one should show the layout on which it is to run.

If there are wires showing, bits of plywood, glue, out of scale cars, cobwebs, all people are on 'skateboards' etc. then you have no case other than to acknowledge that you are a display case rivet counter, and not a model railroader. (Which is fine.)



Agree with that. We will never have a layout looking exactly like the original but that does not matter as it is the layout that I have made which is far from perfect. If my locos and coaches run well and look like the real thing without all the finer details being perfect then that is OK. Passengers sit on my coach seats without legs but they don't complain so why should I.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline Henrik Schütz  
#11 Posted : 18 July 2019 18:09:42(UTC)
Henrik Schütz

Sweden   
Joined: 04/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 74
Location: Stockholms Lan, Stockholm
It's Märklin not Maerklin...

LOL

Henrik
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Offline Minok  
#12 Posted : 18 July 2019 19:45:28(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Looking at the image shown, only the "g" sits too high. It sitting high causes the optical illusion of the "o" sitting low but it doesn't. Zoom in on the image, and hold a sheet of paper where the baseline of the various letters are across the words. The "g" is clearly too high - the bottom of the g's oval should sit on the baseline. I'm guessing that is a problem they created when they authored the tampon stamp used to place the words.. .no one double checked it for such a simple error (I'm guessing they placed individual letters or adjusted the inter letter kerning by hand and caused the error. I don't see a 'font' making such a thing happen.

Henrik, "Maerklin" is an acceptable alternative, that is the way you type German words when you don't have the umlaut on your keyboard. So in Germany, the airplane maker might have been called "Böing" BigGrin
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline PMPeter  
#13 Posted : 18 July 2019 20:20:42(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: Henrik Schütz Go to Quoted Post
It's Märklin not Maerklin...

LOL

Henrik


No. If your keyboard does not support the "ä", the proper way of doing it is with "ae", therefore, Maerklin.

PS: Oh, I just noticed that Minok already said the same.
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Offline mike c  
#14 Posted : 18 July 2019 21:13:10(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
I truly think if one want to complain about such a 'defect' one should show the layout on which it is to run.

If there are wires showing, bits of plywood, glue, out of scale cars, cobwebs, all people are on 'skateboards' etc. then you have no case other than to acknowledge that you are a display case rivet counter, and not a model railroader. (Which is fine.)



What does a layout have anything to do with a model? If I have a teppichbahn which I set up a few times a year or whether I have a complete layout, do I not deserve to have my models correctly rendered? Am I not paying the same amount for my models as you are? All I know is that the companies spoke of new technologies, lower costs and yet the prices keep going up and the quality gets worse and worse... At some point, enough is enough.

I might be able to accept on a 50EUR coach that the Swiss crest is not properly positioned between the SBB and CFF. When it comes to a locomotive that costs 7 or 8 times as much, I expect Roco/Maerklin, etc to render the model correctly...

Roco:

Side 1: https://img.ricardostati...x1350/pl/1074697194/0/2/
Side 2: https://img.ricardostati...x1350/pl/1074697194/0/5/

Piko:

https://img.ricardostati...x1350/pl/1072844328/0/2/
https://img.ricardostati...x1350/pl/1072844328/0/5/

The question is... If one company can do it right, why can't the other and why should we have to accept these shoddy renderings?

Roco botched the Re 4/4II Bourret. They recalled the models and reissued it with an improved paintjob.
Maerklin botched the 37360 Ae 610. They delayed the AC model and released it with a repainted shell.

Other times, they have not taken any action. Maerklin's 37446 (289 EUR) had red color visible under the blue side panels, but they did not correct it.
I managed to find two models at a low price (189 EUR) and swapped shells with a pair of Trix 22631 that I located for 99 EUR each, so I found a suitable solution for that model. I liked my solution so much I did the same with a Trix 22636 to end up with a Crossrail 185 with sound for Maerklin.

I cannot swap shells on a Roco model as it is not compatible with any other. I could always pass on the Roco and go for the Piko version, but I wanted the model to match my LokRoll SBB Vectron, which I already have from Roco.

If Maerklin is not an acceptable way to write it, why is the website maerklin.de?Blink

I don't buy my models just because they are Maerklin, Roco, LSM, ACME, Hag, etc. I buy them because I model Swiss trains and I expect them to do as good a job producing the models as possible. I expect that there will be some compromises to make a working model, but I also do expect that if a model does not pass inspection during tampon printing or similar, that the production line will be stopped, the error will be corrected and only a quality product will be released to the public. Hag has long offered B shells at a lower price. They know they cannot pass off errors as top-line and just say "Take it or leave it"

Regards

Mike C
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#15 Posted : 18 July 2019 21:25:15(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
it points out the hypocrisy of demanding that others adhere to a ridiculous standard which you do not even try to attain yourself.

Declaring that manufacturers cant get it right for such an absolutely ridiculous 'defect' is self righteous twaddle.

Since you are the one that plainly does not get it, I'll get blunt, and then ignore this thread: get a life.

Note: the original title of this thread is that "manufactures just cant get it right". The title has now been changed to read "Minor Production Errors cause frustration"

Edited by user 26 July 2019 15:02:09(UTC)  | Reason: added Note.

Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline mvd71  
#16 Posted : 18 July 2019 22:21:28(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,708
Location: Auckland,
Dale,

You are out of line, Mike has raised a valid point about a quality issue and expressed his frustration with that. He has every right to do so, and in raising it he may just save someone else the same disappointment he has had.
if you don't agree and are willing to pay top dollar for locos with obvious defects that shouldn't have passed quality control that is your choice.
But being insulting to another member because their views are not in line with yours is just wrong, and your justification for it pretty weak at best.

Anyway, I think you should back off and respect Mike and the concerns he has raised.

Regards,

Mike (the kiwi version)
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#17 Posted : 18 July 2019 22:23:50(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post

Piko:

https://img.ricardostati...x1350/pl/1072844328/0/2/
https://img.ricardostati...x1350/pl/1072844328/0/5/

The question is... If one company can do it right, why can't the other and why should we have to accept these shoddy renderings?


Are you saying the Piko one is correct? To my eye the bottom of the upper o part of the g does not sit on the same line as the bottom of the other letters in cargo - which leads me to wonder if the original loco is like that with the slightly raised g part of the branding.

Offline Minok  
#18 Posted : 18 July 2019 22:28:29(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post

Piko:

https://img.ricardostati...x1350/pl/1072844328/0/2/
https://img.ricardostati...x1350/pl/1072844328/0/5/

The question is... If one company can do it right, why can't the other and why should we have to accept these shoddy renderings?


Are you saying the Piko one is correct? To my eye the bottom of the upper o part of the g does not sit on the same line as the bottom of the other letters in cargo - which leads me to wonder if the original loco is like that with the slightly raised g part of the branding.



Great minds think alike. I had the same thought initialy and went and researched the original loco photos.
The original has all of the glyphs aligned on the baseline:
Capture.PNG (1,474kb) downloaded 13 time(s).
Capture.PNG
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline kiwiAlan  
#19 Posted : 18 July 2019 22:35:09(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post

Piko:

https://img.ricardostati...x1350/pl/1072844328/0/2/
https://img.ricardostati...x1350/pl/1072844328/0/5/

The question is... If one company can do it right, why can't the other and why should we have to accept these shoddy renderings?


Are you saying the Piko one is correct? To my eye the bottom of the upper o part of the g does not sit on the same line as the bottom of the other letters in cargo - which leads me to wonder if the original loco is like that with the slightly raised g part of the branding.



Great minds think alike. I had the same thought initialy and went and researched the original loco photos.
The original has all of the glyphs aligned on the baseline:
Capture.PNG (1,474kb) downloaded 13 time(s).
Capture.PNG


Well, when i put a straight edge along the bottom of the lettering there the g is still raised a little from where I would expect it to be in normal typesetting, suggesting it is part of the branding.

Offline TEEWolf  
#20 Posted : 19 July 2019 02:05:55(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: Henrik Schütz Go to Quoted Post
It's Märklin not Maerklin...

LOL

Henrik


Hello Henrik,

sorry - it's only half of the story. Maerklin is another possible form to write Märklin, even in the German language. Here the German language follows other languages not knowing "Umlaute" ä - ö - ü, as the German language does.

It's Märklin or Maerklin not Marklin.Laugh

Best Regards

TEEWolf
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Offline David Dewar  
#21 Posted : 19 July 2019 10:53:17(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,332
Location: Scotland
Maybe I will just buy stuff from PIKO as it appears easier to spell. Also do we really think that the locos etc we buy are actually going to replicate the original and be free from minor errors of any type. What we are buying are toys in a declining market and are thus getting more expensive but if I were to start complaining about goods and companies then where is the fun in carrying on with the hobby.

We do want items that work and are reliable but some need to lighten up and accept it does not always happen.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline cookee_nz  
#22 Posted : 19 July 2019 12:25:14(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,948
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: Henrik Schütz Go to Quoted Post
It's Märklin not Maerklin...

LOL

Henrik


Not according to their URL... Scared

https://www.maerklin.de/


maerklinurl.jpg

Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline Henrik Schütz  
#23 Posted : 19 July 2019 12:31:43(UTC)
Henrik Schütz

Sweden   
Joined: 04/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 74
Location: Stockholms Lan, Stockholm
The theme in the thread is that manufacturers mess things up!

Henrik Schütz
Offline cookee_nz  
#24 Posted : 19 July 2019 12:35:46(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,948
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
I was looking forward to receiving my 79117 Hupac (SBB) "Nightpiercer" Vectron.
Over the past few days, I have read a few posts in German language forums about issues with the rendering of the Roco model.
Apparently, the "go" in SBB Cargo International is not lined up with the rest of the text.

There have also been reports of issues with the blue paint on the ends of the locomotive. I need to look into this further.
(snip)
The same message can pretty much go out to Maerklin as well...

Respectfully yours,

Mike C


Out of interest Mike, has anyone (yourself included) actually gone back to Roco and queried this?

I'm wondering if they would accept it was a QA/misprint issue and may be prepared to replace the model with a corrected version even if it means a short delay until they do another run.

If they refuse etc then there's probably something to get concerned about but if they have not yet been asked either directly or via your dealer then that should be the first step I would have thought.

The fact that other manufacturers can reproduce the image correctly certainly adds persuasion to your point.

However, in the case of beloved M., when they admit a printing error ("Fehldruck") and you have one, you might want to hold on to it. They sometimes become more valuable than the corrected version (only for those who are into such esoteric minutiae of course) ThumpUp

Cheers

Cookee
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline mike c  
#25 Posted : 19 July 2019 17:59:54(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Also sprach Dale:

Quote:
I truly think if one want to complain about such a 'defect' one should show the layout on which it is to run.

If there are wires showing, bits of plywood, glue, out of scale cars, cobwebs, all people are on 'skateboards' etc. then you have no case other than to acknowledge that you are a display case rivet counter, and not a model railroader. (Which is fine.)


What exactly are you getting at here? Are you insinuating that anybody who has not had the time to build the perfect layout is not a model railroader?
And if it is fine, why did you bring it up in the first place?

Quote:
it points out the hypocrisy of demanding that others adhere to a ridiculous standard which you do not even try to attain yourself.

Declaring that manufacturers cant get it right for such an absolutely ridiculous 'defect' is self righteous twaddle.

Since you are the one that plainly does not get it, I'll get blunt, and then ignore this thread: get a life.


I have not had the time or the place to build an intricate layout. There is no Maerklin club in my area that I could join. My focus as a model railroader is Swiss trains and my models reproduce trains that I have been on and trains that I have seen on my travels in Switzerland. Each time I run a train, it brings back memories of a day and a place that is special to me.
Personally, I am more happy running a temporary setup that runs all through the basement rather than having a perfect 4' x 8' layout that only goes in ovals.

Over the past 20 years, I have seen a flood of models, ever increasing in price, that have seen minor flaws in increasing numbers. This list includes TEE models where the red/beige transition was flawed, SBB Cargo models with red visible through the blue (37360, 37446), poorly rendered artwork (Bourret) (Roco 78411), not to mention lights shining through the shell (Roco FNM ES 64) and more...

During the same time, the price has gone from 400 DM (200 EUR) to around 300 EUR and then you have to factor in the money it costs to return items for repair/correction.

Maybe if I did not have to pay these additional costs, I could have spent more on trackside detail...

Back to the model... This is the corporate logo of SBB Cargo International: http://seekvectorlogo.co...national-vector-logo.png

Here is the actual model: https://www.flickr.com/photos/128387323@N06/33668633358/sizes/o/

I am happy that I already have most of the models on my Wishlist. I made the silly mistake of going back to Switzerland this summer to take a short break from my role as a caregiver to my mom and now I have a few new trains to add to the list. Fortunately, at the moment, nobody makes the Giruno or the Twindexx in HO yet.

If after 20 years of frequent irritation, the latest case caused my frustration to boil over, I hope that you can keep your personal criticisms to yourself.

Nimm s légère!

Merci Vielmol und ciao!

Mike C
Offline TEEWolf  
#26 Posted : 19 July 2019 18:39:50(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Sorry - just saw that post #26 and #27 are identical.

Edited by user 23 July 2019 14:07:14(UTC)  | Reason: double posting deleted

Offline TEEWolf  
#27 Posted : 19 July 2019 18:41:26(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
Also sprach Dale:

Quote:
I truly think if one want to complain about such a 'defect' one should show the layout on which it is to run.

If there are wires showing, bits of plywood, glue, out of scale cars, cobwebs, all people are on 'skateboards' etc. then you have no case other than to acknowledge that you are a display case rivet counter, and not a model railroader. (Which is fine.)


What exactly are you getting at here? Are you insinuating that anybody who has not had the time to build the perfect layout is not a model railroader?
And if it is fine, why did you bring it up in the first place?

Quote:
it points out the hypocrisy of demanding that others adhere to a ridiculous standard which you do not even try to attain yourself.

Declaring that manufacturers cant get it right for such an absolutely ridiculous 'defect' is self righteous twaddle.

Since you are the one that plainly does not get it, I'll get blunt, and then ignore this thread: get a life.


I have not had the time or the place to build an intricate layout. There is no Maerklin club in my area that I could join. My focus as a model railroader is Swiss trains and my models reproduce trains that I have been on and trains that I have seen on my travels in Switzerland. Each time I run a train, it brings back memories of a day and a place that is special to me.
Personally, I am more happy running a temporary setup that runs all through the basement rather than having a perfect 4' x 8' layout that only goes in ovals.

Over the past 20 years, I have seen a flood of models, ever increasing in price, that have seen minor flaws in increasing numbers. This list includes TEE models where the red/beige transition was flawed, SBB Cargo models with red visible through the blue (37360, 37446), poorly rendered artwork (Bourret) (Roco 78411), not to mention lights shining through the shell (Roco FNM ES 64) and more...

During the same time, the price has gone from 400 DM (200 EUR) to around 300 EUR and then you have to factor in the money it costs to return items for repair/correction.

Maybe if I did not have to pay these additional costs, I could have spent more on trackside detail...

Back to the model... This is the corporate logo of SBB Cargo International: http://seekvectorlogo.co...national-vector-logo.png

Here is the actual model: https://www.flickr.com/photos/128387323@N06/33668633358/sizes/o/

I am happy that I already have most of the models on my Wishlist. I made the silly mistake of going back to Switzerland this summer to take a short break from my role as a caregiver to my mom and now I have a few new trains to add to the list. Fortunately, at the moment, nobody makes the Giruno or the Twindexx in HO yet.

If after 20 years of frequent irritation, the latest case caused my frustration to boil over, I hope that you can keep your personal criticisms to yourself.

Nimm s légère!

Merci Vielmol und ciao!

Mike C



Wow, what a "Retourkutsche" (sorry do not know an English word for that).
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Offline David Dewar  
#28 Posted : 19 July 2019 19:59:40(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,332
Location: Scotland
Mike. I think you might need to lower your expectations for models costing around 300 euros as the manufacturing cost is only a fraction of that.
I only have one Swiss loco … the Marklin 37462 .. which runs very well and looks good but I have no idea if it is a good replica or not and I really don't care as I enjoy it with the suitable Marklin coaches on the layout. For me building a layout along with all the buildings etc is just as much a hobby as running trains and I probably spend more time building than I do with the models.

We all have our own ideas about the hobby but it should be fun and not one of frustration. Years ago I had a HAG Swiss loco but sold it as future purchases were hopeless with no dealers other than in Switzerland and the cost of their models was way to high for what you get which was the same models with different adverts on the side. I now stick mainly with Marklin and to date everything runs well out the box even if I don't know how accurate the model is.

David
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline Minok  
#29 Posted : 19 July 2019 20:46:50(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post


Over the past 20 years, I have seen a flood of models, ever increasing in price, ...

During the same time, the price has gone from 400 DM (200 EUR) to around 300 EUR


One thing to keep in mind is this: in the 20 year timeframe (1999-2019) , a 200 € model in 1999 would cost 307 € in 2019, just from general inflation alone.
So effectively the price has remained relatively stable.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline mike c  
#30 Posted : 20 July 2019 16:51:29(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
In 1998, I bought a 37341 from a Toronto dealer for $400CAD. The model was IMHO a little pricey, but the model was by then a little hard to find.
I was able to buy the 37344 from a US dealer for $200USD, which at that time was about $300CAD. Today, a model of a similar lok is retailing for 300 EUR, which is about $450CAD.
Fortunately, Canadian dealers now get their models at a lower price than what was charged by the former distributor (Gordon Book & Co), so the increase is less than it would otherwise be.
You have to remember that over the period 2008-2016, the CAD surpassed the USD and was worth as much as $1.05USD at it's peak. This was the result of the strength of the CAD at that moment, coupled with a weakness in the USD. The CAD remained relatively unchanged against the EUR, only dropping from 1.50 to 1.34 CAD per EUR. Today, it is back to 1.50, meaning that goods from Europe now cost about 15% more and goods from USA cost 30% more.

Regards

Mike C
Offline mike c  
#31 Posted : 20 July 2019 17:11:25(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
Mike. I think you might need to lower your expectations for models costing around 300 euros as the manufacturing cost is only a fraction of that.
I only have one Swiss loco … the Marklin 37462 .. which runs very well and looks good but I have no idea if it is a good replica or not and I really don't care as I enjoy it with the suitable Marklin coaches on the layout. For me building a layout along with all the buildings etc is just as much a hobby as running trains and I probably spend more time building than I do with the models.

We all have our own ideas about the hobby but it should be fun and not one of frustration. Years ago I had a HAG Swiss loco but sold it as future purchases were hopeless with no dealers other than in Switzerland and the cost of their models was way to high for what you get which was the same models with different adverts on the side. I now stick mainly with Marklin and to date everything runs well out the box even if I don't know how accurate the model is.

David


David,

You describe yourself as somebody who sticks with Maerklin even if you don't know how accurate the model is.
We all have our motivations and inspiration for our hobbies.
In my case, I am collecting Swiss trains, so I can't stick to one manufacturer if the model only exists from another one.
From the IC2000 to the ICN, from the RABe 511 to the ETR 610 and from the Ae 4/7 to the RBe 540, those models all come from other companies than Maerklin.
I don't insist on a model being 100% prototypical. I do prefer that it be as prototypical as possible (in terms of design).
I do expect that aspects like paint/printing will be done without cutting corners. The fact that they flubbed a corporate logo is significant to me. That should be an easy detail to reproduce. It's not as if that was some artistic detail.

I guess that when it comes down to it, I am frustrated that the companies seem to feel that buyers are willing to overlook minor flaws and they don't seem to do quality control. It would not take much to put a couple of models through the paint process, inspect them, correct any flaws and then proceed with the rest of the batch. I was very pleased when Maerklin did just that with the 37360 (compared to the Trix 22755) and rather pissed when a similar flaw occurred with the 37446, especially considering that they had got it right on the almost identical Trix 22631 version.

I am very happy with my Hag models. The motors (dating from the 1980s) run as well as the highest technology Maerklin ever put out (C-Sine).
As far as the Re 460, I like them even more, since they do not have issues with light shining through the spot where the shell and the chassis meet.
Hag was also the only manufacturer to make the Re 450 (S-Bahn) and in the 1980s, the only one making the Re 4/4II and Re 6/6.
Today, I am much less likely to buy a new Hag model.

I got into the 303mm (1/87) models in the 1980s and swapped my floor layout from M Track to K Track and since then to C Track, which allows me to run these longer coaches and consists. When not running the teppichbahn, I have a test track made up from a C Track Startset which uses R1. If I get the urge to run trains and don't have the time to set up in the basement, I can run the trains with the shorter cars (1:93 or 1:100).
I originally had a small collection of the reduced scale length models for my niece and nephew to play with and have added some models over time, but my heart is in the exact scale versions.

Regards

Mike C
Offline David Dewar  
#32 Posted : 20 July 2019 17:55:33(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,332
Location: Scotland
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
Mike. I think you might need to lower your expectations for models costing around 300 euros as the manufacturing cost is only a fraction of that.
I only have one Swiss loco … the Marklin 37462 .. which runs very well and looks good but I have no idea if it is a good replica or not and I really don't care as I enjoy it with the suitable Marklin coaches on the layout. For me building a layout along with all the buildings etc is just as much a hobby as running trains and I probably spend more time building than I do with the models.

We all have our own ideas about the hobby but it should be fun and not one of frustration. Years ago I had a HAG Swiss loco but sold it as future purchases were hopeless with no dealers other than in Switzerland and the cost of their models was way to high for what you get which was the same models with different adverts on the side. I now stick mainly with Marklin and to date everything runs well out the box even if I don't know how accurate the model is.

David


David,

You describe yourself as somebody who sticks with Maerklin even if you don't know how accurate the model is.
We all have our motivations and inspiration for our hobbies.
In my case, I am collecting Swiss trains, so I can't stick to one manufacturer if the model only exists from another one.
From the IC2000 to the ICN, from the RABe 511 to the ETR 610 and from the Ae 4/7 to the RBe 540, those models all come from other companies than Maerklin.
I don't insist on a model being 100% prototypical. I do prefer that it be as prototypical as possible (in terms of design).
I do expect that aspects like paint/printing will be done without cutting corners. The fact that they flubbed a corporate logo is significant to me. That should be an easy detail to reproduce. It's not as if that was some artistic detail.

I guess that when it comes down to it, I am frustrated that the companies seem to feel that buyers are willing to overlook minor flaws and they don't seem to do quality control. It would not take much to put a couple of models through the paint process, inspect them, correct any flaws and then proceed with the rest of the batch. I was very pleased when Maerklin did just that with the 37360 (compared to the Trix 22755) and rather pissed when a similar flaw occurred with the 37446, especially considering that they had got it right on the almost identical Trix 22631 version.

I am very happy with my Hag models. The motors (dating from the 1980s) run as well as the highest technology Maerklin ever put out (C-Sine).
As far as the Re 460, I like them even more, since they do not have issues with light shining through the spot where the shell and the chassis meet.
Hag was also the only manufacturer to make the Re 450 (S-Bahn) and in the 1980s, the only one making the Re 4/4II and Re 6/6.
Today, I am much less likely to buy a new Hag model.

I got into the 303mm (1/87) models in the 1980s and swapped my floor layout from M Track to K Track and since then to C Track, which allows me to run these longer coaches and consists. When not running the teppichbahn, I have a test track made up from a C Track Startset which uses R1. If I get the urge to run trains and don't have the time to set up in the basement, I can run the trains with the shorter cars (1:93 or 1:100).
I originally had a small collection of the reduced scale length models for my niece and nephew to play with and have added some models over time, but my heart is in the exact scale versions.

Regards

Mike C



Hi MIke. I understand your view completly and some of the faults you mention are certainly not good. I have been lucky with Marklin but I tend to buy a loco which has been on sale for a reasonable time and also come on here to see if anybody has made the purchase and if they are happy with what they have.

For health reasons I had to retire early and model rail was a great hobby to keep me busy and active. I do get frustrated at times with my new CS3 but when I eventually get it right it is a feeling of achievement when various events have the layout going well.


I dont know if HAG are still going or where to buy them other than Switzerland and I would not go back to the dealer there.

David
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline dickinsonj  
#33 Posted : 23 July 2019 03:34:06(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Henrik Schütz Go to Quoted Post
It's Märklin not Maerklin...

LOL

Henrik


No. If your keyboard does not support the "ä", the proper way of doing it is with "ae", therefore, Maerklin.

PS: Oh, I just noticed that Minok already said the same.


Märklin agrees with you, as the web address for their online shop is: www.maerklinshop.de
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline mike c  
#34 Posted : 25 July 2019 03:45:49(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
My Roco 79117 Nightpiercer arrived today.

I managed to introduce it to it's consist briefly.
IMG_0737.jpg

The inspiration: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152440859@N03/40601635473/

I will get a chance to test it in the next day or two.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline MaerklinLife  
#35 Posted : 25 July 2019 07:49:22(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
it points out the hypocrisy of demanding that others adhere to a ridiculous standard which you do not even try to attain yourself.

I don't have this on my front door:
"The authentic reproduction of the originals is always in focus. Therefore, Roco is thoroughly committed to the highest quality in design, construction and processing and the use of state-of-the-art technologies and production methods."

Others don't pay me to build their model railway, and building model railways is not how I make my living, and I don't claim to be true to reality, finest details and what not.

Each to his own, but I think that getting the logo and branding right should be basic stuff.

So: No! It is not hypocrisy.
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#36 Posted : 25 July 2019 22:38:40(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Must admit that particular Vectron is a nice looking loco, regardless of the 'g' being slightly higher than the rest of the letters.
Offline mike c  
#37 Posted : 26 July 2019 01:42:56(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
I hope to have a few higher quality photos of the model later today.

It looks very nice. It was interesting to note that the pantographs have a different configuration than the SBBIN/LokRoll model.
I have not compared it to the BLS Re 475.

Regards

Mike C
Offline kimballthurlow  
#38 Posted : 27 July 2019 00:51:23(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,653
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Interesting thread with many different modelling approaches.
Thanks for the opinions.

Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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