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Offline Cheshy  
#1 Posted : 02 June 2019 17:45:57(UTC)
Cheshy

Belgium   
Joined: 12/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Oost-vlaanderen,hansbeke
hello everyone

i'm trying to think of a way to use the turnout solonoid thingy's ( 74492 ) and my arduino to manage turnout's. i would make a pannel with button and leds indicating every turnout and were it points to. now the arduino runs on 5V and the 74492 runs on 18V if i remember wel. so i prob will need to have an extra feed of electricity running for the turnouts and such. i looked up solid state relays and normal relays ( i found the latter in like giant blocks ) but can't seem to realy figure out how to connect it all, writting the code prob will not be a problem as soon as i have an idea how to wire it all.

thx in advance
Offline DaleSchultz  
#2 Posted : 02 June 2019 18:33:41(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,993
I would buy the rack of 8 relays - they also work on 5V and can switch the 16V AC or DC required to move the solenoids. That would allow you to switch 4 turnouts.

I used such a rack of 8 for my Signal project, so see that for the type and wiring details:
https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com/2019/03/Outdoor-signal-with-wi-fi-control.html

To do the switching you will need two relays for each turnout, one to switch it one way and the other to switch it back again.
To switch it you have to switch the relay on for a short period (100ms?) and then off again. (Very important to switch it off again.)
To set the turnout in the opposite direction, you do the same on the other relay. (On - off.)
You would feed the switching current (16 VAC) to the common connectors of all the relays and then the switched outputs to the turnout motors (blue wires) and the yellow wire to ground as usual.





Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline Cheshy  
#3 Posted : 02 June 2019 18:55:52(UTC)
Cheshy

Belgium   
Joined: 12/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Oost-vlaanderen,hansbeke
so i would like to try and make this layout:
layout.jpg

so the stuff i need then would be

( more tracks hehe )
2 times the amount of turnouts of relays
an arduino mega ( or several arduino's )
an extra power suply for the turnouts
quite a lot of cabels
leds to indicate the direction the turnout is in
buttons
an overvieuw to put all the buttons and leds ( i can prob get my hands on a laser cutter / engraver from school )

would this be enough then?
Offline DaleSchultz  
#4 Posted : 02 June 2019 19:07:57(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,993
sounds about right, but I suggest you make up one module first, and test it with a turnout on the workbench.

One Arduino of your choice, one rack of relays (or see if you can get just a pair so that each thing you make drives one turnout), some LEDs and buttons, etc.

When you know how well that all works, then buy the rest and produce them all.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline clapcott  
#5 Posted : 04 June 2019 00:12:30(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,214
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Cheshy Go to Quoted Post
i'm trying to think of a way to use the turnout solonoid thingy's ( 74492 ) and my arduino to manage turnout's.

i would make a panel with button and leds indicating every turnout and were it points to.

now the arduino runs on 5V and the 74492 runs on 18V if i remember wel. so i prob will need to have an extra feed of electricity running for the turnouts and such. i looked up solid state relays and normal relays ( i found the latter in like giant blocks ) but can't seem to realy figure out how to connect it all, writting the code prob will not be a problem as soon as i have an idea how to wire it all.


I have absolutely no issue with exploring arduino options within the hobby, in fact I would be the first to explore the option in order to find the practicalities.

However I am also one to evaluate an option as being "realistic" and fit for purpose (which may or may not also consider time and cost)

By itself, what you describe ..
- switching turnouts
- buttons to cause the switching
- indicating the state of the turnout position on a mimic panel
.. does not need an arduino.

Far from it in fact. this concept has been around in various forms well before the Arduino or any PIC/computer solution

Is there some other/unmentioned aspect to your project that is pointing you towards an Arduino solution?

And I will add - Neither is it an all or nothing scenario.
If you did have to use an Arduino for the buttons and indicators, I would still suggest evaluating the m83(60832) or m84(60842) as the electronic part to drive the turnouts rather than reinventing the wheel by designing/engineering your own driver electronics and power suppliers.
Peter
Offline Cheshy  
#6 Posted : 04 June 2019 01:16:28(UTC)
Cheshy

Belgium   
Joined: 12/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Oost-vlaanderen,hansbeke
Thx for the repley,

I would use the arduino because i like what it is. I have explored the options for the 83 and 84 but it would be easier for me to use arduino and write the code myself. If you could explain to me how i could use the modules you said i could use i would realy like to know how because i looked at this many nights but just couldn’t figure it out.

Thx
Offline tiono  
#7 Posted : 04 June 2019 03:05:17(UTC)
tiono

United States   
Joined: 09/02/2010(UTC)
Posts: 208
I use arduino to control the turnouts.
The purpose of using arduino are:
- simplifying the wiring. From control panel, I just pull 3 wires; Vcc, RX, TX, to control a cluster of turnouts which usually require much more wires.
- programming set of turnouts into single function for more user-friendly control panel.

Below is the block diagram of my system;
Switches are connected to Arduino #1, which communicate to other Arduinos (#2, #3, #4) thru serial. Arduino #2, #3, #4, controlling the solenoid and getting the feedback.



Below is my control panel. I use lighted switch which will lit when activated and get positive feedback from the solenoid, to ensure that it indeed switched correctly.



thanks 1 user liked this useful post by tiono
Offline clapcott  
#8 Posted : 04 June 2019 07:02:44(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,214
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: tiono Go to Quoted Post
I use arduino to control the turnouts.

This doesn't pass the sniff test.

Maybe you should expand precisely what you call arduino in this case..
- what board
- what shield
- what added electronics
- what power

Quote:
The purpose of using arduino are:
- simplifying the wiring. From control panel, I just pull 3 wires; Vcc, RX, TX, to control a cluster of turnouts which usually require much more wires.

Re: I just pull 3 wires; Vcc, RX, TX
I consider this unlikely. where is the power return (and what Vcc? where is the power for the turnout switching coming from)

Re: control a cluster of turnouts which usually require much more wires
standard (manufacturer) implementations exist with 2 wires that include power. Although 3 or 4 wires does offer better power discrimination if needed.

The schematic also indicates a cable per slave decoder. Daisy chain options exist - in the arduino environment as well as from manufacturers.

Quote:

- programming set of turnouts into single function for more user-friendly control panel.

OK - another type of route management.


As I mentioned in an earlier post.
In no way do I discount what an arduino, or any other modeler initiate, may bring to the hobby, however comparisons need to be done with full perspective and without glib comments that distort the business case.



Peter
Offline Cheshy  
#9 Posted : 04 June 2019 07:07:26(UTC)
Cheshy

Belgium   
Joined: 12/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Oost-vlaanderen,hansbeke
The reason i also wanted to use arduino is because i might want to use it in the classroom. It is very cheap, easy to learn and if it works i can use it to teach my students electronics, programming...
There is a lot of stuff in model railways i can use in class.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Cheshy
Offline tiono  
#10 Posted : 04 June 2019 07:21:41(UTC)
tiono

United States   
Joined: 09/02/2010(UTC)
Posts: 208
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post

Maybe you should expand precisely what you call arduino in this case..
- what board
- what shield
- what added electronics
- what power



Arduino Nano (Atmega 328, 16MHz) which is easily available on eBay for $2
No shield.
Transistor was added to switch the turnout, using 18V DC instead of 16V as recommended by Marklin. The arduino itself is using 5V from a switched regulator soldered to its board. (the same type of cheap switch regulator which I use for coach lighting)

Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post


I consider this unlikely. where is the power return (and what Vcc? where is the power for the turnout switching coming from)


The return line is the rail. I use it as common. Vcc is 18V DC (from separate power supply)
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by tiono
Offline DaleSchultz  
#11 Posted : 04 June 2019 16:46:42(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,993
Tiono, that control panel looks exquisite! Well done.

I think If I had to start all over again I would use ESP8266 modules for turnouts and sensors. Simply much cheaper.

(ESP8266s connect to the wifi so no communication wires needed!)
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline Cheshy  
#12 Posted : 04 June 2019 20:31:08(UTC)
Cheshy

Belgium   
Joined: 12/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Oost-vlaanderen,hansbeke
so i was reading another forum post about those solonoid motors. are these good if i only aply pulses? i read something about those being faulty?
Offline DaleSchultz  
#13 Posted : 04 June 2019 21:30:03(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,993
the solenoids need a short pulse to switch them. If you don't pulse them you are running power through their coils all the time and they will burn out.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline clapcott  
#14 Posted : 07 June 2019 23:36:31(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,214
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
I think If I had to start all over again I would use ESP8266 modules for turnouts and sensors. Simply much cheaper.

(ESP8266s connect to the wifi so no communication wires needed!)


I remain wary of the "noise" around and under a layout so have not ventured into the turnout aspect (which are mostly tortoise and need constant power anyway)

I am therefore restricting myself to the remote indicators when it comes to the ESP8266 modules.
If things appear stable (wont know until the next show) then sensors might be considered, however the loconet solution has that pretty much covered.

Peter
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by clapcott
Offline DaleSchultz  
#15 Posted : 08 June 2019 19:31:50(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,993
So far, I have 5 Esp8266 devices under my layout, I have not had any interference issues.

One controls room lights, one handles my mobile cab control and the other three drive RemoteSigns.

The room lighting had a lot of electromagnetic noise nearby (12V 30 A) and the can controller need not be at the layout, but it's there simply to get power when I power up the layout.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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