Hello,

I've been thinking for some time about how to determine how many wagons a märklin locomotive could haul. There have been comments lately about whether the classic marklin locomotives have more power than the current models, and about the weights of the classic locomotives versus the current ones.

I have been reading about the railway, and it seems that the weight of the locomotive is the main factor apart from the power of the locomotive engine, ie the power of the locomotive engine is transmitted to the track by the weight of the locomotive.

In my locomotive collection this weight fluctuates between 114 gr of the Glaskasten 36861 and 646 gr of the Taurus 39355.



Numero de unidades means number of units or number of locomotives
And the horizontal axis represents the weights in grams.

But the weight of the locomotive is divided between the axles it has giving a value of weight per axle, this is the same in the case of drive axles or guide axles, but for traction only axles with traction are important, so, if we suppose a locomotive 1'C1' (or 1-3-1 , 5 axles) weighing 50 Tm, would have 10 Tm/axle, and 30 Tm of drive weight, but due to the coefficient of friction between the wheel and rail this is reduced to 20%, ie 6 Tm. This quantity is called adherent weight.

In future emails in this same thread I will show the individual data in more detail.

Best regards

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

Hello

I will continue to check the behavior of locomotives according to their weight, from lower to higher, then the next is the BR 89 ex T3, reference märklin 37140, this small locomotive weighs 128 gr, has 3 axles, but really only rests on the two exteriors, the central axle is slightly raised and the wheels do not support the rail, the weight per axle is therefore 64 gr. It only has one traction tyre and I calculate an adherent weight of 56 gr.

The test is performed on a section with a slope between 3 and 5% and curves of R1 and R2, pulling and pushing wagons, the results are:
In R1, pulling: 2 cars, train weight 138 gr
In R1, pushing: 2 cars, Train weight 138 gr
In R2, pulling: 2 cars, Train weight 138 gr
In R2, pushing: same result



Best regards

Hello, good morning,

Today we have on the test track the most famous locomotive märklin, the BR 89, 3000. This locomotive weighs 186 gr, has 3 axles, but only rests on the two outer axles, the central one is slightly elevated, then the weight per axle is 94 gr, the rear axle has traction tyres, then the adherent weight is 94+0,25*94 = 118 gr. The locomotive is digitized with a 6080 decoder.

In section R1, the results are:

Pulling: 11 wagons, with a weight of 864 gr
Pushing: 9 wagons, with a weight of 686 gr



Although the speed with which it climbs could be thought that it can pull more cars, is not so, with just one more car, skates on some tracks

In section R2, the results are:
Pulling: 11 wagons, with a weight of 864 gr
Pushing: 9 wagons, with a weight of 686 gr
In other words, there is no difference with R1

Now a small video of the start of the 3000 pulling 23 wagons, some very heavy, on flat. It seems that this small locomotive has no limits, with this length of trains, in my model due to the curves R1, begin to appear problems of derailments in the wagons due to the tension in the curves.



Best regards

Hi John, your model is impressive, and of course you can do more exact tests than I can do. I agree with you, I think marklin engines in general have more power than necessary, at least for the vast majority of installations. But well, I'm trying to find out if you can relate the number of wagons or the weight of the train that a locomotive can carry to the weight, or the adherent weight, or the axle weight, of that locomotive. And also if the performance of today's locomotives differs from other, let's say, more classic locomotives. Many times I think that during the years 1990-2003 märklin manufactured the best locomotives, with a relation of level of detail and excellent running characteristics.

Best regards

I'm a bit of an old admirer of the classic locos Märklin bought out over the years and especially the BR 44, ok it hasn't got any brake shoe, ok its not as detailed as today's models but the word "BR 44" stood for a heavy freight loco and this what it was and it performed the task as a BR 44 but today its replaced by fancy advertisements, glossy photos and description doesn't always belong to the model itself but rather the prototype.
Today's description includes how many sound functions, how many detailed parts are added and you have a partly detailed cab interior which if the tender is close enough you wouldn't see anyhow and you also can see right through the loco.
When the loco is in motion most of the extras aren't visible and so long the front bogie or axle isn't dragging its feed behind by the new designs it most probably is a nice loco to have but not at any given price tag compared with the good old BR 44 from the 60's.
Lately the BR V 60, BR 260 is being produced by almost every and it would be an interesting comparison which of these shunting locos has the best traction force.
It almost sounds like a scam that someone has written to these manufacturers and asked for a re run of these locos .
ESU bought out 1 before but what I have been gathering, the pulling power wasn't the greatest, so they've bought out a new model and promised that the traction force has been improved and they also added a power supply to the loco so it wont get stuck on a turnout but the smaller wheels on this particular loco still falls into hole of the Märklin turnouts its like having hick-ups.
naturally it would make some difference if the model was all metal or the housing came with a plastic housing.

It is good to hear someone like you has taken the time to explain and also demonstrate the different locos and its capability and with smaller or shunting locos it could make some difference what a loco can actually pull or push.
Lately I have seen car advertisements whereas cars drive in circles, up a steep incline to beat a goat, or driving through deep water and the most important part everybody is laughing in the car, so its all fun, like with model trains we should have all the fun in the world but nobody tells us anything particular about the capability of your model, they suggest which carriages you can use but very little about how many a BR 44 can pull up an incline., the new model in question most probably isn't a very good example regarding performance

I'd like to point out that axles that are connected by connecting rods are driven, and not just when there are gear wheels between them.

I often read comments about how the axles are not really driven because they are only connected by rods. This is actually how a real locomotive works! The rods cause the axles to be driven.

In older models the connecting rods were in many cases fake, or didn't connect to all wheels, so they felt the need to put gears in between to actually have them driven. In more recent models the gears are not necessary and they have been removed.

As to the centre axles having smaller wheels in 6-coupled models, the reason for this is to prevent the model 'see-sawing' when going over the crest of a hill. If the axles are sprung this is not necessary, and this is actually the case in some models.

I feel that there is a tendency to criticise newer models unjustly. I call this the "Rose tinted glasses" phenomenon. We all think that things from our youth were better than anything modern. This is quite understandable as we all feel nostalgia for days gone by, but we shouldn't let it cloud our opinions of what are very beautiful and well made models produced today.

I have also noticed an interesting dimension which is the warmth of the tire. I have some locomotives that struggle on a certain hill on the first two times around the track. They actually slow in the section as a result of the wheels skidding. By about the third time around the layout, they make it up the hill without a problem. I can only assume that by the time it has gone around three times, the tires are warmer giving better traction.

Very true. What you see is not what you get when it comes to driven axles in steamers. I believe that all driven axles in diesels and electrics are in full contact with the track, but I could be wrong about that.

Interestingly Märklin will list all of the powered axles as driven, even though they may not place enough force on the track to do much good. I have never seen any listing of exactly how many axles are in full track contact and hence are making a contribution to driving traction. IMO these floating axles must make some tractive contribution but obviously not as much as one bearing their share of the weight of the loco. I guess the only way to really know how well a loco pulls is to put it on the track and give it a test run.

I do agree with Ray and that is a point of contention for me too. Many people feel that rod driven axles do not contribute much even when they are fully weight bearing and I don't think that is really true.

Relative to powered axles by the use of rods instead of gears, I agree with Ray that the axles are indeed powered. I have some doubts about the wearing of the rods in case they are really under pressure (I mean when the wheels are on the rails tracting the locomotive). This is a different issue than traction. Some todays materials are more durable than the ones used some decades ago, and I hope these materials are being used.

Märklin could bring some light on these subjects explaining their point of view and giving some numbers for their locomotives.
I also think there should be some standards (maybe they already exist and I don't know) and those should appear in the locomotives specifications. Just as an example I am trying to say is for example a norm where it was specified a locomotive can pull a train of 20 cars with a total of x weight, each with 4 axles in a 20 meter ramp with a grade of 3%. Another norm would specify the same for double that number of cars and double the weight.

Regards,
Miguel

Hi Jim, I believe that at least some of the diesels and electrics with three axle bogies (Co-Co) have a smaller wheel in the centre of the bogie. This is no doubt for the same reason they do it in steamers.

Hello, good morning

First of all, thank you very much for your comments and I'm glad that you find this thread interesting, but later I'll comment some things.

Today, we are going to see the revision of the märklin BR 160, #3457, it has taken me quite some time and many attempts to do the tests because the locomotive has had a little erratic behavior.
On the one hand there have been times when I skated and was unable to pull anything and other times has pulled more cars than I could imagine, but if I repeated the test to film it on video, she was not able to walk. Maybe what has been said about tyre warm-up has something to do with it.
On the other hand, there has been a fleischmann wagon that just went off the track, and I had to remove it. I also had to alter the order of the wagons to avoid derailments.

Well, the BR 160 #3457 has 1'C axles disposition, that is to say a free front bezel, and 3 coupled axles, front bezel has a strap in a way that supports part of the locomotive weight, and of the three coupled axles, the locomotive only rests on the 2 exterior axles leaving the central one in the air, so the locomotive rests on 3 axles (the bezel and 2 coupled) but only uses 2 as driving axles. It is equipped with 2 traction tyresThe locomotive weighs 226 grams, the weight/axle is 75 gr, and the adherent weight is 75+0,25*75 = 91 grams.
The locomotive is digitized with a LokPilot v4 decoder and an ESU magnet, but retains the original 3-pole rotor.

The results of the tests are:
R1 Pulling: 20 wagons, weight of the pulled train 1444 grams
R1 Pushing: 12 wagons, weight of the pushed train 1040 grams



R2 Pulling: 21 wagons, weight of the pulled train 1500 gr, train length 303 cm.
R2 pushing: 12 wagons, weight of the pushed train 1040 gr.



Some considerations: In general and at full load the locomotive is able to start and start at very low speed, but, I think that due to imperfections in my layout, sometimes the locomotive stops or skids in some areas of the track, this makes me have to increase the speed by putting the speed control to the maximum, to overcome the entire route, this becomes more evident on the curves R2 and curves in S.

In addition, the maximum speed of the locomotive is set to 80 km/h on a scale, this is done with the help of the Train Controller.

Best regards

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Hello, John

I was also surprised that this locomotive 3457 could pull so many cars, in fact dragged 26, but when I made the video the train was not complete, so I tried again and it was not possible, the locomotive refused to drag so many cars, and in the end what I could prove was what is in the video.

I've been watching the video again and the front axle wheels turn perfectly, but I've seen that at some point there's this optical effect that makes it look like the wheels turn upside down. I also cleaned all the wheels and tracks during the tests.
Ah! yes I have a BR 44, the 3108, it's very, very heavy, we'll see what it can do

Best regards

Hello everyone, good afternoon,

The next will be the BR 74, Märklin 3095
Weight: 250 gr
axle arrangement: 1' C
drive axles: 2
weight-bearing axles: 3
axles with traction tyres: 1
weight/axle: 83 gr
Adhesive weight: 104 gr (83+0.25*83)
Motor type SFCM
digitalized with: 6080

The test results are:
R1 pulling: 17 cars, train weight 1464 gr



R1 pushing: 13 cars, train weight 1006 gr



R2 Pulling: 18 cars, train weight 1542 gr



R2 Pushing: 13 cars, train weight 1006 gr



This locomotive also demonstrates the impressive traction force it has. Being digitized with 6080 decoder the speed regulation is not very accurate, and although I tried to keep the locomotive in average speed values, sometimes when climbing the slopes I had to put the control almost to the maximum, I have to avoid this in the future as it is very easy to derail the wagons. On the other hand, to climb as the train reaches the top the locomotive is accelerated, and making the video and keeping the locomotive under control is complicated, although in some of the shots has helped me Train controller.
Best regards

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

Hello Dale, as you can imagine I'm keeping all this data in an excel sheet, and I hope I can deduce that constant "martinez" that you comment, or at least that there is a certain trend, but I think I need more data, maybe when they start to appear locomotives with motorized bogies can be deduced better.

best regards

Hello

Yes, it's a good idea, I had already thought about that, but I don't have a tension gauge, and also my layout is digital so talking about voltages doesn't make sense, you can talk about speed steps, which I'm already taking into account. I had also thought that the locomotive and through a pulley pull a hanging weight, but this also has several drawbacks for me, despite the size of my model, I do not have more room to do other things, so I decided to do the tests as I'm doing.

Best regards

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

100g Pesola balance perhaps...
https://www.pesola.com/E...%E2%80%A2-d=1g-10100.htm

Interesting results, Antonio!

I have one of these little Br80 and your results do not surprise me. Mine is a great puller for its size!

Most interesting Antonio.
I like your experiments on the pulling power.
Wonder if it makes a difference with pulling the double axle freight cars vs the longer 4 axle passenger cars of the Marklin #4000 series metal ones.
The best locomotive I've had with the highest pulling power was the #3022 BRE194 and #3032 BR81, pulling nearly 20 all metal #4000 series cars.
That was the maximum I could put on the layout, with the end of the last car just in front of the locomotive.
Walter

Hello, good morning

Thank you for reminding me of this fact. Let's say that when you increase your speed you go through steps 1, 3, 5, 7, 9...27.
and when you slow down 26, 24, 22, 20 ....4, 2, 0
But in the IB display you can only see the 14 steps of the MM, and in any case I didn't reach 50% of the power or speed of the locomotive.

cordial greetings

correct, so you have to just remember that if you use a certain speed step for consistency, to always get to that step from the same side. (Probably from below.)

(as an aside... in my software I use the 27 steps and send out two speed commands for each one, but eventually I want to replace my decoders with 126 step decoders such as from ESU, at which point I won't need to mess about with the intermediate steps anymore)

I see in the video you have Swiss Crocodile switch loco.
Did you tested pulling tractive power too?

3096
Hello everyone, good morning,

Today another classic märklin locomotive, the BR 86, with reference 3096. Locomotive equipped with Telex couplings. The engine only drives the rear axle, and through the connecting rods the movement is transmitted to the other 3 axles. The locomotive is digitalized with a LokPilot decoder and the corresponding permanent magnet stator. It retains the original 3-pole rotor.

Its features are:

Weight: 300 gr
axle arrangement: 1’ D 1’
drive axles: 2
weight-bearing axles: 4
axles with traction tyres: 1
weight/axle: 75 gr
Adhesive weight: 94 gr (75+0.25*75)
Motor type: LFCM
Digitalized with: LokPilot decoder


The test results are:

R1 pulling: 13 cars, train weight: 984 gr
[YOUTUBE] [/YOUTUBE]

R1 pushing: 15 cars, train weight: 1152 gr

R2 Pulling: 14 cars, train weight: 1082 gr
[YOUTUBE] [/YOUTUBE]

R2 Pushing: 15 cars, train weight: 1152 gr
[YOUTUBE] [/YOUTUBE]

I believe that the results are within the normality, this locomotive does not have an excess of power, but the results are within what one can expect. On the other hand this locomotive has quite a tendency to stop due to failures in the pick up shoe and the ground, it has to be very clean to work well.

Best regards

Hello everyone, good morning,
Today we are going to see the behavior of the BR 114, Märklin 3033.10, according to märklin documentation this locomotive is made in collaboration with Trix. The frame is made of cast iron and the body is made of plastic. At first it had a tendency to skate, after cleaning the wheels with traction tyres with isopropyl alcohol improved the grip.

Its features are:

Weight: 324 gr
axle arrangement: B’ B’
drive axles: 2
weight-bearing axles: 4
axles with traction tyres: 2
weight/axle: 81 gr
Adhesive weight: 162 gr
Motor type: DCM
Digitalized with: LokPilot decoder v4



The test results are:

R1 pulling: 12 cars, train weight: 954 gr
[YOUTUBE] [/YOUTUBE]

R1 pushing: 12 cars, train weight: 1034 gr. The wagons are different from those used in the previous test.
[YOUTUBE] [/YOUTUBE]

R2 Pulling: 12 cars, train weight: 954 gr
[YOUTUBE] [/YOUTUBE]

R2 Pushing: 15 cars, train weight: 1286 gr
[YOUTUBE] [/YOUTUBE]

I was hoping for more spectacular results, but the locomotive was losing traction right away. On the other hand, when the number of wagons increased, derailment problems began to appear.
Some additional data:
average number of cars : 12,5
average train weight: 1057 gr
train weight / locomotive weight ratio: 3,6
ratio weight train / weight / axle: 14
train weight/adhesive weight ratio: 6,5

In this graph we can see the evolution of the relations between dragged weight and weight of the locomotive or adherent weight, for the locomotives tested until now.
Apparently no relationship or trend is observed.



Best regards

37095
Hello everyone, good morning,

Today, a locomotive that I always liked very much, the BR 85, märklin 37095, is a compact locomotive that communicates the feeling of power. The chassis is made of cast iron and also the boiler and the cabin or part of it. It is equipped with the famous 5-axle articulated chassis that gives it a lot of maneuverability in curves. However I have noticed a problem, in the changes of slope, although in my model they are soft, the central axle that has traction tyres sometimes loses contact with the rail, and with a heavy train that is noticeable. The motor is a DCM with 5 poles and the decoder is a 6090. The tests are done without exceeding 50% of the power.

Its features are:
Weight: 346 gr
axle arrangement: 1’E 1’
drive axles: 3
weight-bearing axles: 5
axles with traction tyres: 2
weight/axle: 69 gr
Adhesive weight: 156 gr (2*81)
Motor type: DCM 5 poles + 6090

The test results are:

R1 pulling: 16 cars, train weight: 1524 gr


R2 Pulling: 14 cars, train weight: 1352 gr
[YOUTUBE] [/YOUTUBE]

R2 Pushing: 21 cars, train weight: 1912 gr
[YOUTUBE] [/YOUTUBE]



And now some graphics, the horizontal axis is the weight of the locomotives tested so far





Best regards