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Offline rhfil  
#1 Posted : 04 April 2019 15:57:51(UTC)
rhfil

United States   
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 39
Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
In playing around with my CS3+ and m84 while trying to optimize using an uncoupler track I found this screen and changed "Output 1" as shown as compared to what is shown in the other outputs which resulted in the relay to the uncoupler track pulsing for approximately one second. But I am not sure what each of the changes I made actually accomplished. Does anyone know what each of the column headers means and does or where I can find that out?
IMG_0013.JPEG
Offline rhfil  
#2 Posted : 04 April 2019 21:32:55(UTC)
rhfil

United States   
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 39
Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
I had some free time to do a little experimenting and found that the "Output 1,3,5, and 7" control the red or left hand terminals of the m84. The Dr. check does not seem to do anything and the same seems to be true for the "Dimmer" box. So by changing the odd Outputs to the "Switching" and "Period" of "1" I get a short pulse for my four uncoupler tracks. Next I will see if I can move the connections to "Output 1,2,3, and 4".
Offline TEEWolf  
#3 Posted : 04 April 2019 23:08:32(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,010
Originally Posted by: rhfil Go to Quoted Post
I had some free time to do a little experimenting and found that the "Output 1,3,5, and 7" control the red or left hand terminals of the m84. The Dr. check does not seem to do anything and the same seems to be true for the "Dimmer" box. So by changing the odd Outputs to the "Switching" and "Period" of "1" I get a short pulse for my four uncoupler tracks. Next I will see if I can move the connections to "Output 1,2,3, and 4".


I do not understand, why you want to use a m84 for an uncoupler? For an uncoupler you just need an short pulsed current.

A m84 is for a permanent current, either ot switch a lamp on/of or to toggel between 2 permanent currents, like using the m84 as a signal on hidden places.

See the pictures here on page 23 following

https://www.maerklin.de/...5_Digital_MM_2014_04.pdf

A m83 is for a pulsed current, like to switch a turnout or use an uncoupler.
CS 3 is a controlling station from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline rhfil  
#4 Posted : 05 April 2019 02:43:23(UTC)
rhfil

United States   
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 39
Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
I find it more convenient to use the m84 that I do have than the m83 that I do not have. I should be able to operate 8 uncoupler tracks with it and also automate a two train shuttle using sensor tracks. Not sure if the m83 would give me that much capability. I take it you do not know the answer to my questions.
Offline clapcott  
#5 Posted : 05 April 2019 04:08:24(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,251
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: rhfil Go to Quoted Post
Does anyone know what each of the column headers means and does or where I can find that out?


The screen is a generic one for any Marklin accessory device with configurable outputs.

Most topically both the m83 AND m84. As such, not all options apply to every device.

The "Dimmer" is the amount of power the output provides , with values from 0 to 255(max = 100%)
For the m83 and something like LEDs attached, this equates to brightness
For the m84 where a relay is either on or off this value is ignored.

The "Mode" is actually semi-descriptive, however as with relays and the dimmer setting The m84 relay cannot MARS or perform the florescent light function. It can blink however.

The "Period"
This relates to modes that need a period or timmer value, e.g. a blinking function and is a value that is multiplied by
- 0.05 seconds for a m83 (a value of 20 , with a blinking mode means a blinking period of 1 second)
- 0.5 seconds for a m84

The "Switching Group" is
- not used for a m83
- for a m84 , a "binary mask" that identifies which OTHER outputs of the m84 to turn OFF when that output is turned on
This is how the "pairs" work out of the box, When the #1R relay is turned on the #1G realy (binary 2) is turned off.

if you wished you could use a m84 accross 8 fiddle yards (dead sections) so that when you activated a single port ALL other ports would turn off
e.g. changing the 2 against the #1Red to 254 would do this (254 being 2(1G)+4(2R)+8(2G)+16(3R)+32(3G)+64(4R)+128(4G))

The DR is for a german word that means Switch/Eneregise.
- checked=out stays on,
- unchecked means touch or output pulses.
In the case of pulsing, the on and off of the pules is dictated by you holding down the button on the controller AND whether the controller has a delay before it lets the m84 know you have lifted your finger.



Peter
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Offline clapcott  
#6 Posted : 05 April 2019 04:10:01(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,251
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
I do not understand, why you want to use a m84 for an uncoupler? For an uncoupler you just need an short pulsed current.

And I cannot understand why you would NOT use a m84 or similar relay control

You might wish to read up of Relex operation
Peter
Offline MaerklinLife  
#7 Posted : 05 April 2019 05:47:01(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
I don't understand it either. The m83 is cheaper and it is the recommended way.

But I am interested in knowing how it could work with the m84. Can it automatically turn the uncoupler off again so you don't burn the coil?
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Offline TEEWolf  
#8 Posted : 05 April 2019 13:57:18(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,010
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
I do not understand, why you want to use a m84 for an uncoupler? For an uncoupler you just need an short pulsed current.

And I cannot understand why you would NOT use a m84 or similar relay control

You might wish to read up of Relex operation


Please help me, I do not understand what you mean "... read up of Relex operation."

But as @MärklinLife wrote too,
Quote:
don't understand it either. The m83 is cheaper and it is the recommended way.

But I am interested in knowing how it could work with the m84. Can it automatically turn the uncoupler off again so you don't burn the coil?


As I mentioned in my post #3, a m83 is built for a short current pulse, a m84 is made to handle permanent current, like to switch on/off a lamp or to toggle between two conditions, like a signal either green or red, but both are permanent lightning.

Quote:
@rhfil

I should be able to operate 8 uncoupler tracks with


How do you want to do it with a m84? I am really curious. At a m83 it is no problem, because you only need one contact for one uncoupler and you have 8 contacts at the decoder.
CS 3 is a controlling station from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline rhfil  
#9 Posted : 05 April 2019 16:35:41(UTC)
rhfil

United States   
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 39
Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
I discovered from my experimenting that changing Outputs 1.3.5. &7 to "Switching", Period to 1 and leaving the rest at factory settings produces a short pulse at the four red terminals. Now if it also returned the track board knife switch representation back to closed instead of open it would be ideal but I can live with having to close it manually instead of having to hurry and turn it off to stop the irritating noise. Works great.
Supposedly there is a way to make both the red and green terminals independently operable by changing CV 79 but that is the next project. That would give me the ability to operate my four uncoupler tracks from two sets of connections freeing up the rest to play around with automatic train operation using sensor tracks.
Offline clapcott  
#10 Posted : 06 April 2019 22:30:48(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,251
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
I don't understand it either. The m83 is cheaper and it is the recommended way.

When did the price come into the equation?
I, personally , would recommend a m84 (or relay with separate AC power) over a m83 as the means to operate an uncoupler.
Quote:

But I am interested in knowing how it could work with the m84. Can it automatically turn the uncoupler off again so you don't burn the coil?


I am not sure what it would take to burn out a coil - I have not experienced that.
However there are many ways to set up automation to turn off a m84 relay port whether it has an un-coupler attached or not.


Peter
Offline rhfil  
#11 Posted : 10 April 2019 19:45:55(UTC)
rhfil

United States   
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 39
Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
Finally managed to make the m84 do pretty much what I wanted. I can operate the uncoupler track by clicking on the uncoupler track symbol in the track layout and it sends a short pulse so that I do not have to turn it off to keep from burning out the solenoid with no other action required before doing it a second time. Also I will be using the red and green connections to each operate an uncoupler thus freeing up most of the m84 for other uses.
Offline Crazy Harry  
#12 Posted : 11 April 2019 03:37:42(UTC)
Crazy Harry

Canada   
Joined: 18/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 327
Location: Oakville, Ontario
Originally Posted by: rhfil Go to Quoted Post
Finally managed to make the m84 do pretty much what I wanted. I can operate the uncoupler track by clicking on the uncoupler track symbol in the track layout and it sends a short pulse so that I do not have to turn it off to keep from burning out the solenoid with no other action required before doing it a second time. Also I will be using the red and green connections to each operate an uncoupler thus freeing up most of the m84 for other uses.


Can you post the parameters you used for all the headings. I'm using a m84 to control an old turntable (7186) and would like the short pulse option to operate the solenoid that pulls the pin to release the turntable. I need a short pulse and like the idea of not having to turn it off before energizing it again.

Thanks,

Harold.

Offline rhfil  
#13 Posted : 11 April 2019 15:41:03(UTC)
rhfil

United States   
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 39
Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
I have a CS3+ and believe that unless you also have one what my screens show will do you no good. Also, what I discovered was that the options accessible on the m84 are dependent on what you are trying to operate. Once you select turntable you limit your choices. But first of all do you have a CS3+?
Offline Crazy Harry  
#14 Posted : 12 April 2019 03:58:25(UTC)
Crazy Harry

Canada   
Joined: 18/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 327
Location: Oakville, Ontario
Originally Posted by: rhfil Go to Quoted Post
I have a CS3+ and believe that unless you also have one what my screens show will do you no good. Also, what I discovered was that the options accessible on the m84 are dependent on what you are trying to operate. Once you select turntable you limit your choices. But first of all do you have a CS3+?


I have a CS3 and selected turntable operated by k84. The m84 outputs screen I see is the same as your first post.

Harold.
Offline rhfil  
#15 Posted : 12 April 2019 15:36:51(UTC)
rhfil

United States   
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 39
Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
Output 1 appears to control the first red terminal. By changing the "Mode" to "Switching" and the "Period" to "1" should result in an approximately one second burst at position 1. Or you can do the same thing with the Outputs 2,3,4 and get the same effect at any of the four red terminals. There should be a way to do that for all eight outputs (4 reds and 4 greens) but that would mean playing around a bit, possibly changing the switching group numbers. For your information I solved my problem by ending up with a completely different screen when I did not select "multidecoder" on the earlier screen. Not sure right now which I did select but try different options. Right now I am reluctant to go back and play around with the screen as it does exactly what I want the way it is.
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Offline clapcott  
#16 Posted : 13 April 2019 02:55:51(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,251
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
ONE possible concept has already been covered in the post ...
https://www.marklin-user...22-M84-wiring#post586822

The reference there to setting CV136/137 to "0" equate the screens "Switching Group" values for Output 1(1 Red) and Output 2(1 Green) respectively.
- This prevents the action of pressing one button (e.g 1R) causing the other (1G) automatically turning off.
Thus giving you separate control over two devices
(Provided the power supplies have a common reference)

The reference to setting CV112 = 1 means two things to the m84
- a) Dimmer (which for the m84 equates to ON)
- b) "touch" (to use the original m84 manual term - the newer secret squirrel doco has "button" ).

In this context the port will energize as long as you hold your finger on the button.

my setup is as follows
UserPostedImage
Peter
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Offline clapcott  
#17 Posted : 13 April 2019 03:01:37(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,251
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
This brings us to the Controllers.
- for a 6021/6040 , with its green and red buttons, this is back to the future stuff and how the system worked with k83s for 20+ years
- for the CS3 the default for an item is a single icon that toggles ON or OFF. For use with the likes of uncouplers, this configuration needs to be changed.

When editing the m84 you can select either "Red Standard" or Uncoupler. to cause the "pair" to split.
This addresses the xRed aspect and you may then set the xGreen aspect to either "Green Standard" or Uncopler

UserPostedImage

At this point you may test to observe the the port will energize as long as you are holding down the button
This is because the CS3 send separate "energize" (button touched) and "de-energize" (button released) commands to the m84 BUT it is the m84 as configured above that is now listening for the two separate commands, rather than just being kicked of by the first command and doing its own thing to turn off.

So what you are actually observing for the "de-energise" after lifting your finger, is the CS3s default (almost un-noticable) delay of 200mS (0.2 Seconds)

By accessing the second tab of the CS3 configuration screen for the m84 port you may set the "Switching Time" value up to 5 seconds (5000mS)
(If you need longer than that and I suggest you traditional On/Off switching with a Route/Memory/Event)
UserPostedImage
Peter
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