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Offline morsing  
#1 Posted : 03 April 2019 11:45:54(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 376
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Hi,

Reading through the Marklin runnning digital book, it quite clearly suggests you can run M.U.s using different models. How precise is the speed matching?

Two questions:

1) Is it going too far trying to run an M.U. with locos from different brands?

2) Is the speed matching exact enough that you can run a loco at each end of a train? Like the Marklin 39674 & 39677?

Thanks
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 04 April 2019 08:22:14(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,465
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: morsing Go to Quoted Post
How precise is the speed matching?
The CS3 does not do any speed matching.
Speed matching is left as an exercise to the customer.

Pairing a Roco loco with a Piko loco is probably simpler than matching a Märklin loco with soft-drive motor and a Märklin loco with regular motor.

Have fun!
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline morsing  
#3 Posted : 04 April 2019 10:00:00(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 376
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

Speed matching is left as an exercise to the customer.


That sounds like A LOT of work! :-(

Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 04 April 2019 10:56:46(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,465
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: morsing Go to Quoted Post
That sounds like A LOT of work! :-(
It's easier if you have locos with identical motors, gears, and decoders.

There are some tricks, like disabling load regulation in one loco and maybe reducing or disabling load regulation in the other loco.
Or maybe have at least one loco without traction tyres.

It surely ain't fun if the train keeps on derailing or permanently loses traction tyres.


And mixing a sound loco and a non-sound loco can also be a problem. Some non-sound decoders allow setting a startup delay to compensate for the delay of sound decoders, but that is also tricky.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline morsing  
#5 Posted : 04 April 2019 10:59:20(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 376
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire

I can't believe the CS3 book made this all sound so easy!
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Offline amartinezv  
#6 Posted : 04 April 2019 11:18:53(UTC)
amartinezv

Spain   
Joined: 25/08/2004(UTC)
Posts: 229
Location: Madrid,

Hello, good morning

I don't have CS3. My central is an IntelliBox (IB), that said, märklin makes some recommendations to work with MUs (I understand this is Multiple Units).

Setting the maximum speed and inertia to the same value in the decoder helps a lot.
If the locomotives are the same or similar it also helps.
If a locomotive is faster it should go ahead.
With my IB you can do "double or multiple traction" and the IB sends the same commands to all the decoders that make up the MU.
The best solution is to use a software like the train controller, or other similar, in these software is necessary to make a speed profile of each locomotive, so then you can make MU and the software sends each locomotive the specific speed command according to its speed profile, so that the MUs go at exactly the same speed.

Best regards

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
Antonio Martínez
marklin, IB, era 3, Train controller
www.raildigital.es/davidruso
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Offline morsing  
#7 Posted : 04 April 2019 11:49:09(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 376
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Originally Posted by: amartinezv Go to Quoted Post

Hello, good morning

I don't have CS3. My central is an IntelliBox (IB), that said, märklin makes some recommendations to work with MUs (I understand this is Multiple Units).

Setting the maximum speed and inertia to the same value in the decoder helps a lot.
If the locomotives are the same or similar it also helps.
If a locomotive is faster it should go ahead.
With my IB you can do "double or multiple traction" and the IB sends the same commands to all the decoders that make up the MU.
The best solution is to use a software like the train controller, or other similar, in these software is necessary to make a speed profile of each locomotive, so then you can make MU and the software sends each locomotive the specific speed command according to its speed profile, so that the MUs go at exactly the same speed.

Best regards

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator


Thanks, sounds cool, however, if I run it manually, I still need near identical locos it sounds like.

I was hoping I could run a prototypical Herningvaerket with an MY/MX at either end, but sounds like even with PC software that's a bit more than what it can handle.
Offline blid  
#8 Posted : 04 April 2019 12:39:37(UTC)
blid

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 117
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
I'm using Train Controller and have all my engines speed calibrated. TC sends commands for the chosen speed to the engines in a MU. It is not sending a particular speed step to all of them. So running from a PC program might work when manual don't. But as Tom pointed out, the time to reach the speed varies from engine to engine.
My advise is to create the desired MU but place the engines a little bit apart. Then start running back and forth. If the engines move fairly synchronized, go for it.
My MTH engines are calibrated to 1 scale mile per speed step so they are good for MU out of the box and manual running. But that is another story.
CS2, 60215, 4x60174, C-tracks, LDT HSI-88, TC Gold. OneGauge Marklin and MTH, CS1 Reloaded on LGB tracks. MTH 3-rail 0-gauge, DCS on GarGraves tracks.
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Offline blid  
#9 Posted : 04 April 2019 15:30:41(UTC)
blid

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 117
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
I forgot. In your case I think it is safer to use a dummy engine in one end. But this is only feasible if the one engine can pull and push the whole train including the dummy. And the dummy have to be created.
CS2, 60215, 4x60174, C-tracks, LDT HSI-88, TC Gold. OneGauge Marklin and MTH, CS1 Reloaded on LGB tracks. MTH 3-rail 0-gauge, DCS on GarGraves tracks.
Offline morsing  
#10 Posted : 04 April 2019 16:24:30(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 376
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Originally Posted by: blid Go to Quoted Post
I forgot. In your case I think it is safer to use a dummy engine in one end. But this is only feasible if the one engine can pull and push the whole train including the dummy. And the dummy have to be created.


I'd love a dummy, sadly, they don't exist! Paying 250-300 for a loco just to remove the drive mechanism, is a bit excessive...
Offline TEEWolf  
#11 Posted : 04 April 2019 17:59:26(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,704
Location: Bavaria
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!
Originally Posted by: morsing Go to Quoted Post
How precise is the speed matching?
The CS3 does not do any speed matching.
Speed matching is left as an exercise to the customer.

Pairing a Roco loco with a Piko loco is probably simpler than matching a Märklin loco with soft-drive motor and a Märklin loco with regular motor.

Have fun!


Have fun with your ESU etc blabla. But you do not have a CS 3 and you do not know anything about setting up a traction with a CS 3. How can you make such a bad statement?
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline Purellum  
#12 Posted : 04 April 2019 18:34:11(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,068
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Have fun with your ESU etc blabla. But you do not have a CS 3 and you do not know anything about setting up a traction with aCS 3.


You are mixing creating multi-traction with matching speed of the locos.

The first is easy, the second is almost impossible on a Märklin CS.

Have fun trying with your CS3 blablabla LOL

Per.

Cool

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I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

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H0
Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 04 April 2019 18:34:11(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,465
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
How can you make such a bad statement?
I know Märklin SDS and I know Märklin HLA.
Feel free to prove me wrong with a dozen of links to Märklin PDF files.

Trying to match a loco with a linear speed curve (HLA) and one with a non-linear speed curve (SDS) is a challenge. Even if you say it takes only two mouse clicks with a CS3.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline TEEWolf  
#14 Posted : 04 April 2019 18:40:45(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,704
Location: Bavaria
Originally Posted by: morsing Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: blid Go to Quoted Post
I forgot. In your case I think it is safer to use a dummy engine in one end. But this is only feasible if the one engine can pull and push the whole train including the dummy. And the dummy have to be created.


I'd love a dummy, sadly, they don't exist! Paying 250-300 for a loco just to remove the drive mechanism, is a bit excessive...


You must not be a dummy, but I am. What is a MU? You are using very different words and abbreviations as the normal ones.

Have a look into the manual on page 14 above right corner. In short words is written, how to set up a traction of 2 and more locos. Why don't you follow this? Whereas probably more than 3 loco tractions combinations are not possible, because of the missing power. At the Märklin CS 3 book it is page 35 left down corner.

You are trying some sophisticating playing. This requires some trial and error fiddling too. No much people are using this function, also I myself don't do it. Even the big majority here in this forum do not have a CS 3. They still have older digital controllers, where you cannot program such tractions. Also it is obvious that you have to do thorough test and trials first, before you want to combine two different engines. Why do you not do it with 2 equal ones? What do you expect? Here are MRR fans and not electronical system engineers, well perhaps a few, but if they have handled your very specific problem already, I doubt it too.

E.g. if you set up a traction you cannot delete the traction locos from a CS 3.You even cannot delete a traction as well. A traction has always and only be dissolved. Then afterwards you may delete the single locos. All this programming you have to do via your programming track too. Indeed your manual does not tell you all possibilities, But does it the manual for your smartphone, so you got one? I doubt it.

Another problem might be the directions of the locos, which have to be aligned first, before you set them together for a traction. Then you might get error messages while you want to change the driving direction. At the end it may happen, that you have to remove the locos from the layout and rerail them again. There are plenty of possibilities, if you are doing a sophisticated playing. But that is what digital is: more fun, because it is digital and not easy.
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline TEEWolf  
#15 Posted : 04 April 2019 19:04:57(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,704
Location: Bavaria
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
How can you make such a bad statement?
I know Märklin SDS and I know Märklin HLA.
Feel free to prove me wrong with a dozen of links to Märklin PDF files.

Trying to match a loco with a linear speed curve (HLA) and one with a non-linear speed curve (SDS) is a challenge. Even if you say it takes only two mouse clicks with a CS3.


You are writing about a CS 3 in a very negative way, whereas you even do not have one.

I think it is logical that you first combine equal locos with equal motors. It is really nonsens and never seen in real life too, that you combine e.g. a Diesel with a steamer. But by the way, by setting the correct CVs for the loco decoders, it should be possible (I never did it and I do not plan it to do) to combine a HLA with a SDS engine. And you can do this with a CS 3, but you have to know how to do it and to do a lot of work. Read the CS 3 Workbook chapter 1.7.1.6. and the additional part about CVs for traction settings.

Even in the manual (you may downlod form Märklin's website) on page 13 you get some information about configurations. But there is also the sentence: "Please change something only when you know what you are doing". This is the major point.
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline H0  
#16 Posted : 04 April 2019 19:12:08(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,465
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
You are writing about a CS 3 in a very negative way
Do I? In this thread?
ECoS and IB aren't any better when it comes to matching different locos.

I think there are prototype pictures that show diesel and steam locos hauling the same train. And this is not necessarily more difficult than matching a BR 41 and a BR 44.

I think you still didn't get Per's point.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline TEEWolf  
#17 Posted : 04 April 2019 19:34:23(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,704
Location: Bavaria
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
You are writing about a CS 3 in a very negative way
Do I? In this thread?
ECoS and IB aren't any better when it comes to matching different locos.

I think there are prototype pictures that show diesel and steam locos hauling the same train. And this is not necessarily more difficult than matching a BR 41 and a BR 44.

I think you still didn't get Per's point.


Who is Per?
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline Purellum  
#18 Posted : 04 April 2019 19:35:31(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,068
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
You must not be a dummy, but I am. What is a MU? You are using very different words and abbreviations as the normal ones.


According to Wikipedia, "MU" is the normal abbreviation for Multiple-unit train control. BigGrin

https://en.wikipedia.org...tiple-unit_train_control

If you knew what we are talking about, and maybe even know the answer to the questions, your answer is very welcome.

As it is now, you answer almost every question wrongly, quite often with stupid remarks to other manufacturers equipment. Confused

This is plain stupid, and creating extra work for the people who then have to correct your wrong statements.

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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H0
Offline Purellum  
#19 Posted : 04 April 2019 19:38:00(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,068
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Who is Per?


Probably the guy who in ALL of his 2905 posts on this forum have written his name, "Per", as the last of every post. Flapper

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
Offline David Dewar  
#20 Posted : 04 April 2019 21:13:04(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 6,661
Location: Scotland
Gentlemen why is it that we start this carry on when somebody asks a question. Unlikely anybody is going to buy a Piko and a Roco (Nothing against them) when trying to do something with Marklin.


Regarding who is Per. I have probably read all of his 2095 posts so I have a feeling I know who he is … a fine upstanding young man who supplies some excellent uncoupling equipment.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline Rwill  
#21 Posted : 04 April 2019 23:20:59(UTC)
Rwill

United Kingdom   
Joined: 04/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: England, London
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
Gentlemen why is it that we start this carry on when somebody asks a question. Unlikely anybody is going to buy a Piko and a Roco (Nothing against them) when trying to do something with Marklin.


Regarding who is Per. I have probably read all of his 2095 posts so I have a feeling I know who he is … a fine upstanding young man who supplies some excellent uncoupling equipment.



When you get a moment to spare you should perhaps read the 810 posts ( being 2905 less 2095 ) you have not yet read - it would probably be easier,quicker and more useful than clicking on and translating the million links that our learned friend Wolf provides us with.

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Offline rbw993  
#22 Posted : 05 April 2019 01:49:23(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 562
To get back to the topic at hand...

It is not difficult to set up MU's (also known as a consist, generally of 2 loks but could be more) on a CS2. I am currently running at least seven on my layout. Most are SBB style Re 10/10. It is however time consuming.

My method is as follows:

1. Set up a test track loop that is 3.83 meters in length, you can use track planning software to figure this out. This is equal to 1/3 of an HO scale kilometer.
2. Figure out the intervals for the various speeds (60kph, 100kph, etc) to make one circuit of the loop. Hint: 20 seconds= 60kph.
3. Program the top speed of the lok to match the top speed of the prototype (or some standard value for all loks if you prefer). This takes multiple adjustments to fine tune as you must change the max speed parameter until it is close. It doesn't have to be exact in my experience.
4. Set the acceleration curve under the motor CV to be linear. It will then be a straight diagonal line.

I have been able to run any two loks with a matching top speed to run together. You can also do this for fx loks by matching their max speeds by adjusting the potientiometers on the board that set the top speed. This is often a higher value than their scale top speed.

Alternatively the computer software programs wil do it but you have to calibrate each lok with the software. But if using software you have to do this any way so that trains stop in the right places.

Regards
Roger
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#23 Posted : 05 April 2019 14:53:28(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,484
Location: westernmost
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
I think there are prototype pictures that show diesel and steam locos hauling the same train.

Indeed:

https://www.marklin-user...e-Arragements#post590262
Offline morsing  
#24 Posted : 05 April 2019 15:40:24(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 376
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire

Hi,

Thanks for all the replies, more or less meaningful.

I do want to run something similar, I want to run two DSB MY's or a DSB MY + MX as the Herningvaerket train did back in the 1980's.

It would be nice to have two not completely identical locos though, and I already have the 39674 and I like the 39677 MFX+ loco, which I think can be modified to be a 1980's loco by removing the Health & Safety platforms.

I also had a look at the 28524 set as I really want the post car, but I can't find any details of what model the loco actually is.

To have a *really* prototypical setup, I'd have to get a DSB MX from a company like Heljan, but I think that would be too difficult.

So really, I am now just wondering how close the internals of a Marklin 39674 & 39677 are...

P.S. Roger, thanks for a very helpful post

P.P.S. Per, thanks for being you!
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#25 Posted : 05 April 2019 15:52:03(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,484
Location: westernmost
I am lashing up various Maerklin-made EMD F7 A-B-B-A loco consists without much ado. Two units are motorized and two are only dummies, respectively. I only make sure that within each MU consist each loco has the same innings, e.g. either Delta or digital. Besides, I do not "harmonize" decoder settings.This is working flawlessly, even on hilly and curved layouts. So I guess that should apply to your intended NoHab double-header, too.
Offline morsing  
#26 Posted : 05 April 2019 16:18:02(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 376
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
I am lashing up various Maerklin-made EMD F7 A-B-B-A loco consists without much ado. Two units are motorized and two are only dummies, respectively. I only make sure that within each MU consist each loco has the same innings, e.g. either Delta or digital. Besides, I do not "harmonize" decoder settings.This is working flawlessly, even on hilly and curved layouts. So I guess that should apply to your intended NoHab double-header, too.


Thanks, the thing is, it wasn't a double-header, for quick turn-around it had a loco at either end. Can't find any photos atm.
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Offline rbw993  
#27 Posted : 05 April 2019 17:38:07(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 562
I think that to operate them "Topped and Tailed" would require them to have very similar running characteristics. Train slack and run out on curves and switches would be problematic.
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Offline morsing  
#28 Posted : 24 April 2019 18:20:40(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 376
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire

Hi,

Found a video of someone who's done exactly what I want, and yes, near identical locos help.

http://www.jimmyoldtimerstogside.dk/32872635

I tried syncing my Marklin MY and McK MR DMU to make it look like the MY was rescuing a broken down MR, but I only got half-way there and it was very fiddly.

Thanks
Offline morsing  
#29 Posted : 04 June 2019 09:58:34(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 376
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire

Running my head-n-tail coal train with my new dummy MY in the video below. All I need is create the consist to control the light direction:

http://www.morsing.cc/Videos/Trains/Coal_train.mp4

Please excuse the weird looking video, it was converted from MTS to MP4, not sure what's with the wavy effect. I'm no video expert...
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