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Online hxmiesa  
#1 Posted : 21 January 2019 20:21:49(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,642
Location: Spain
I need some signals for my new station.
It´s a through-station with 6 tracks, where 2 of the tracks are bi-directional, and 4 tracks are for one direction only.
The station is on a double-tracked main-line with many blocks. (-and right-side-driving only)

What "ausfarhsignals" do I need?
UserPostedImage

or

UserPostedImage

The one with the integrated vorsignal is much more spectacular, but it seems redundant to me, that several parallel tracks should show the same image on the vorsignal. On the other hand it doesnt make sense that some tracks would have vorsignal, and others no, if the trains are going to the same main line anyway.

I suppose I would need the one with the vorsignal, but when would you use the one without???

Thanks in advance.
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 21 January 2019 20:53:28(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,377
Location: DE-NW
Hi!

You need the version with the distant signal (Vorsignal) if the next main signal is near.
It's probably cheaper to have a single distant single a few centimetres behind the station.

Signal distances are not to scale on H0 layouts anyway (in most cases), so you can decide which version you use.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline fusionfaded  
#3 Posted : 21 January 2019 21:12:19(UTC)
fusionfaded

Switzerland   
Joined: 04/01/2018(UTC)
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
The one with the integrated vorsignal is much more spectacular, but it seems redundant to me, that several parallel tracks should showthe same image on the vorsignal. On the other hand it doesnt make sense that some tracks would have vorsignal, and others no, if the trains are going to the same main line anyway.


If the Vorsignal is on the same pole as the Hauptsignal, it's dark when the Hauptsignal on that mast shows Hp0 (Stop). Now if it the Hauptsignal changes it's image, the Vorsignal will turn on and display the state of the next Hauptsignal. So usually you would only have one Vorsignal active with the others being dark.

In reality it would depend on the distance between the two signals, luckily that's not that big of an issue for us, so it's just a question which possibility you find more visually appealing.
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#4 Posted : 21 January 2019 21:56:06(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,816
I think the version without distance signal is more appropriate in a station, sine we pretend that the next station is at least 1000m down the track, (1000m is the usual minimum distance between the Vr and following Hp signal).

So, I would exit the station with a plain Hp signal and then have a Vr signal before the next one
Dale
Arrival and Departure signs: http://remotesign.mixmox.com
My first layout: http://layout.mixmox.com
My current layout (under construction): http://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
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Offline applor  
#5 Posted : 21 January 2019 22:07:56(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,290
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Vorsignal vr0/vr1/vr2 is needed at the entrance signal before the station.
This indicates the platform signal aspect so the driver knows if he is safe to drive through the station at speed and is not stopping (or if vr2 that turnouts are involved).

Standard home signals for the station track exit signals (hp0/hp1 or hp0/hp2 if there are switches at turnout).
You would then have another Vorsignal after the station on the mainline.

edit: you can see on these links from Rocrail a diagram showing what I mean. The signals shown are semaphore but the light signal aspects are the same - just that the advance and main signals are combined on one mast. The second link shows those conversions if you need.

https://wiki.rocrail.net...n&media=sig:st-3.png
https://wiki.rocrail.net...naling-en#signal_systems
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
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Offline Minok  
#6 Posted : 22 January 2019 21:33:25(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,808
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
For the station/track EXIT signals, the key takeaway is that the distance (vor) signal is blanked (off) when the main signal at the station exit is showing stop (red) with or without shunting allowed.

UserPostedImage

Thus all tracks could have them, as theoretically only the one track that has a green to proceed would then show the distance signal (vorsignal).


When you need a vorsignal (distance signal) I thought was driven by the visibility of the next block signal, that is, if the train driver could not see it from the required distance away (its obscured by terrain/ buildings/curves). So if the station exit is then a straight shot to the next main signal, there really isn't a need for a vorsignal, but if your station exists and then curves around before you get to the next main signal, THEN there's a logical reason to put the vorsignal on the mast with the station exit signal. (experts let me know if I got this right, because I'm thinking this through for my own benefit as well as trying to clarify for readers)
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
Offline fusionfaded  
#7 Posted : 23 January 2019 12:57:05(UTC)
fusionfaded

Switzerland   
Joined: 04/01/2018(UTC)
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post

When you need a vorsignal (distance signal) I thought was driven by the visibility of the next block signal, that is, if the train driver could not see it from the required distance away (its obscured by terrain/ buildings/curves). So if the station exit is then a straight shot to the next main signal, there really isn't a need for a vorsignal, but if your station exists and then curves around before you get to the next main signal, THEN there's a logical reason to put the vorsignal on the mast with the station exit signal. (experts let me know if I got this right, because I'm thinking this through for my own benefit as well as trying to clarify for readers)

What you're refering to is a "Vorsignalwiederholer" (distance sigal repeater). With a few exceptions every "Hauptsignal" has one "Vorsignal" (Looking at one path). The distance between them depends on the braking distance. Then, if your block signal isn't visible from a certain distance you need to install these "Vorsignalwiederholer" between the Haupt- and Vorsignal.
A station will have those if you can't see the exit signal. The next main signal will have a Vorsignal, now that's the one you could put on the exit signal.
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Online hxmiesa  
#8 Posted : 23 January 2019 13:43:46(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,642
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: fusionfaded Go to Quoted Post
What you're refering to is a "Vorsignalwiederholer" (distance sigal repeater). With a few exceptions every "Hauptsignal" has one "Vorsignal" (Looking at one path). The distance between them depends on the braking distance. Then, if your block signal isn't visible from a certain distance you need to install these "Vorsignalwiederholer" between the Haupt- and Vorsignal.
A station will have those if you can't see the exit signal. The next main signal will have a Vorsignal, now that's the one you could put on the exit signal.

Well, yes. That is how I had understood it; "Every signal has a vorsignal".
But my doubt is; if I need the ausfarhsignal in my station WITH or WITHOUT the vorsignal on the same mast.
Some people has explained about the DISTANCE to the next signal, but I cant figure out if it is a question ONLY about that, or if I need the vorsignal anyway, as the driver needs to know the sate of the next block...

Judging from the answers here, it seems like I DONT need the vorsignal on the same mast.
On my layout, the next block already DOES have a vorsignal (or maybe that would now be a "wiederholer"?) further down the line, after exiting the station.
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 23 January 2019 14:09:41(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,377
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
or maybe that would now be a "wiederholer"?
A repeater signal is marked with a single white light IRL.

The driver needs to know the state of the next block before entering that block. The next block can be a long way from the current station and thus the next distant signal can also be a long way ahead.

The exit signal controls the entrance of the "current" block and at this time the train driver must not know anything about the "next" block - unless the "current" block is very short.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Minok  
#10 Posted : 23 January 2019 22:39:21(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,808
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: fusionfaded Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post

When you need a vorsignal (distance signal) I thought was driven by the visibility of the next block signal, that is, if the train driver could not see it from the required distance away (its obscured by terrain/ buildings/curves). So if the station exit is then a straight shot to the next main signal, there really isn't a need for a vorsignal, but if your station exists and then curves around before you get to the next main signal, THEN there's a logical reason to put the vorsignal on the mast with the station exit signal. (experts let me know if I got this right, because I'm thinking this through for my own benefit as well as trying to clarify for readers)

What you're refering to is a "Vorsignalwiederholer" (distance sigal repeater). With a few exceptions every "Hauptsignal" has one "Vorsignal" (Looking at one path). The distance between them depends on the braking distance. Then, if your block signal isn't visible from a certain distance you need to install these "Vorsignalwiederholer" between the Haupt- and Vorsignal.
A station will have those if you can't see the exit signal. The next main signal will have a Vorsignal, now that's the one you could put on the exit signal.


Ah ha. That makes sense.

The block signals are the traffic signals, and where a train would stop, which controls the block or track past the signal.
The distance signal (vorsignal) are a minimum distance out (1km or more) from the main signal, to give the train operator the needed time to slow in preparation of a stop (or make other adjustments).
The Vorsignalwiederholer, would be placed between the distance signal and the block signal as a reminder that the main signal is coming up ahead and you cannot see it (due to line of sight, or multi-signals in curves confusion, etc) and so here is a reminder of whats just ahead.

Whether you put the vorsignal on the same mast with another signal all depends on the distance between that signal and the next main signal of course.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 23 January 2019 22:43:32(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,377
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
The distance signal (vorsignal) are a minimum distance out (1km or more) from the main signal
The minimum is 700 m for branch lines and 1000 m for main lines.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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