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FYI: from Marklin : Power handling "Safety" ? or "Security" ?
 Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 2,448 Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
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Peter
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 6 users liked this useful post by clapcott
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Joined: 06/01/2010(UTC)
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,443
Location: DE-NW
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Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS  |
1 user liked this useful post by H0
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Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 2,448 Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
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Originally Posted by: H0  Already discussed... Thanks, acknowledged. I do prefer a more succinct/focused subject title . |
Peter
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1 user liked this useful post by clapcott
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,443
Location: DE-NW
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Originally Posted by: clapcott I do prefer a more succinct/focused subject title. Me, too. The moderators can decide about title and location (forum) if they decide to merge the two threads. I do prefer to keep discussions in one thread - even with an imperfect, suboptimal title. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
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 Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,593 Location: Spain
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Can somebody rephrase explain it for the slower ones;
Why exactly is it necessary to separate the mass (brown) wires too, on very big layouts?
Isn´t it enough to be sure that all trafos are in phase together? -and then have one big ground-connection on the layout?
-In this case I am talking about analog layouts! |
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,443
Location: DE-NW
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Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Why exactly is it necessary to separate the mass (brown) wires too, on very big layouts? At a quick glance I could not find a reason in the document. My speculation: the document assumes that you only use products with a Märklin logo on the box. Therefore (I assume) you have to separate the ground. Another option would be using thicker wires for the ground... Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Isn´t it enough to be sure that all trafos are in phase together? Forget about phase. I have never seen a Märklin document about digital operation that recommends or requires to have transformers in phase. And the new stuff uses DC power supplies anyway. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
1 user liked this useful post by H0
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Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,593 Location: Spain
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Originally Posted by: H0 Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Why exactly is it necessary to separate the mass (brown) wires too, on very big layouts? At a quick glance I could not find a reason in the document. My speculation: the document assumes that you only use products with a Märklin logo on the box. Therefore (I assume) you have to separate the ground. Another option would be using thicker wires for the ground... Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Isn´t it enough to be sure that all trafos are in phase together? Forget about phase. I have never seen a Märklin document about digital operation that recommends or requires to have transformers in phase. And the new stuff uses DC power supplies anyway. Thanks. I have; 5 Titan (Equivalent to Märklin light blue) trafos (35+35+35+35+100 VA) 4 Märklin light blue trafos (30+30+30+16 VA) 4 Märklin white trafos (32+32+32+32 VA) (The only ones I ever operate manually) 1 DC trafo (or PSU, not sure) 24Vdc (200 W) All of them have the brown wire connected to each other (2mm cable thickness) -For the DC trafo I have the 0 connected to this brown "bus". The thick brown wire circles the layout, where smaller (0,25 mm) wire feeds the layout for every few meters. Apart from assuring having all the trafos in phase, I have no other security meassures installed. Could I be in any kind of trouble? Again, I remind you that I run purely analogue. -And in any event this setup has been running for the last 10 years ;-) |
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Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
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Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Originally Posted by: H0 Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Why exactly is it necessary to separate the mass (brown) wires too, on very big layouts? At a quick glance I could not find a reason in the document. My speculation: the document assumes that you only use products with a Märklin logo on the box. Therefore (I assume) you have to separate the ground. Another option would be using thicker wires for the ground... Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Isn´t it enough to be sure that all trafos are in phase together? Forget about phase. I have never seen a Märklin document about digital operation that recommends or requires to have transformers in phase. And the new stuff uses DC power supplies anyway. Thanks. I have; 5 Titan (Equivalent to Märklin light blue) trafos (35+35+35+35+100 VA) 4 Märklin light blue trafos (30+30+30+16 VA) 4 Märklin white trafos (32+32+32+32 VA) (The only ones I ever operate manually) 1 DC trafo (or PSU, not sure) 24Vdc (200 W) All of them have the brown wire connected to each other (2mm cable thickness) -For the DC trafo I have the 0 connected to this brown "bus". The thick brown wire circles the layout, where smaller (0,25 mm) wire feeds the layout for every few meters. Apart from assuring having all the trafos in phase, I have no other security measures installed. Could I be in any kind of trouble? Again, I remind you that I run purely analogue. -And in any event this setup has been running for the last 10 years ;-) Well, this is the output trusting "more succinct/focused subject title". They do not explain where they stand for really.  The translated headline is: “Security Guidelines – safety requirements for the construction and operation of various sizes of model railroad facilities”. For further information see the 1st topic for new safty guidlines and the 2nd topic for the new security guidlines
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,443
Location: DE-NW
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Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Could I be in any kind of trouble? I am not a lawyer. Legally you must comply with local laws. Typically you must comply with the laws at the time of construction. Märklin do not make clear if their new pamphlet reflects changes in German laws or just reflects changes in Märklin technology. Legal trouble is one aspect. Electric shock another. Fire prevention a third. Märklin documentation usually plays ultra-safe. We had several threads here that report voltages of 200+ V versus ground on the output side of Märklin power supplies. The preface of the new pamphlet mentions this. This is an issue that did not exist with the Märklin transformers where the output stage has galvanic insulation from the input stage. Keep your fingers off the output voltages of Märklin's "Made in China" switching-mode power supplies. The new pamphlet tells you how this can be achieved. It also indicates that there is no real risk as the current will be lower than 0.5 mA because all power supplies comply with the current regulations and are safe. Still the high voltages may "hurt" a bit. Just my humble opinion. IANAL. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
2 users liked this useful post by H0
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,443
Location: DE-NW
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I do not recall Märklin mentioning "FI-Schalter" (Residual Current operated Circuit-Breaker RCCB) in their documentation before.
Are the RCCBs meant to eliminate a risk that did not exist in the old times - or do they eliminate a risk that has been ignored so far?
In Germany there are new requirements with respect to using RCCBs in house installations as of October 1, 2018. Maybe this inspired Märklin to write new general instructions. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
1 user liked this useful post by H0
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FYI: from Marklin : Power handling "Safety" ? or "Security" ?
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