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Offline Michael4  
#1 Posted : 22 September 2018 10:11:30(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 637
Location: England, South Coast
UserPostedImageScreen Shot 2018-09-22 at 09.00.38 by dralowid, on Flickr

This is just a quick diagram to show the problem that I can't quite get my head around. It is probably very simple but I just can't see it.

The train on the blue track can be running in either direction. It will always have priority over the train on the yellow track which can also run in either direction.

Obviously it is easy to stop the yellow train anywhere with the blue train using 5146, signals etc.

Question is, how do you prevent it from stopping across the points (5117/R and 5117/L) and blocking the blue track?
Offline TrainIride  
#2 Posted : 22 September 2018 18:21:45(UTC)
TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,904
Location: FRANCE
Hi !

You can for example

allow the yellow train to enter on the points
only when the blue train is in the opposite part of the layout (on the vertical blue 5106)
and to really prevent the stopping across points,
just always keep power on them ...
You have to use contact tracks to move the points depending which train is coming
and you have to use contact tracks to cut power let us say on the four yellow 5100 around the points, depending the train directions,...
Well, just an example...

And you will have to manage the length of the trains, and their relative speed...

Lots of very interesting things...

Best Regards
Joël
Offline TEEWolf  
#3 Posted : 22 September 2018 19:09:39(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: Michael4 Go to Quoted Post
UserPostedImageScreen Shot 2018-09-22 at 09.00.38 by dralowid, on Flickr

This is just a quick diagram to show the problem that I can't quite get my head around. It is probably very simple but I just can't see it.

The train on the blue track can be running in either direction. It will always have priority over the train on the yellow track which can also run in either direction.

Obviously it is easy to stop the yellow train anywhere with the blue train using 5146, signals etc.

Question is, how do you prevent it from stopping across the points (5117/R and 5117/L) and blocking the blue track?


In a first step, my suggestion is, to use the 5117 L/R turnouts like a signal section for both “type of current supply” (of course it is always the same current, but for explanation purpose I use the terms blue current and yellow current). In the opposite for a signal block you do not switch current on/off. You change the current flow from blue to yellow and vv – whatever train shall running through the turnouts using blue or yellow current.

In a second step you can refine the controlling by combining blue and yellow current. So you can switch trains between the two different routings (and colour currents). But this requires of course special blocks in each section of colour current circles too, to prevent a crash between the trains. It also sets a limitation to the train lengths.

To program it, I would use a m84 in combination with a S88 with contact tracks and reed contacts. Hopefully I wrote it down in an understandable English.Smile
Offline Michael4  
#4 Posted : 23 September 2018 14:51:01(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 637
Location: England, South Coast
Remember I'm all M tack analogue. m84 and S88 are beyond me!

There are some very helpful suggestions here, especially the point about having blue/yellow power always on at the points 5117. Train lengths are limited by passing places etc on my small layout so I can plan those in. I will do a revised diagram for further critique!
Offline Michael4  
#5 Posted : 24 September 2018 15:56:08(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 637
Location: England, South Coast
UserPostedImageScreen Shot 2018-09-24 at 14.50.38 by dralowid, on Flickr

So in its revised form...

Blue (outer) train always has priority
Yellow (inner) train never has priority
Trains can run in either direction
No train longer than 3 track pieces (for this example only)

Green track is continually powered by a third controller.

Red 5146 switch actuates both ways, isolating both pink track sections on yellow track

Brown 5146 switches actuate on trains heading away from the 5117/R/L points only reconnecting power to both pink isolated sections on yellow track.

I think this starts to make sense and should prevent a pile up. On my layout the blue track is very much longer than the yellow track, both are buried in further complexity!

Comments and critique please!
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Offline TrainIride  
#6 Posted : 24 September 2018 21:12:02(UTC)
TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,904
Location: FRANCE
Hi,

May be I do not have understood something,
but I think you need too drive the point directions,
i.e :
you have to use the brow up 5146 coming to the L-point to drive the R-Point to go straight
you have to use the brown down 5146 coming to the R-point to drive the L-Point to go straight

and you have to add two more 5146 to the yellow line (replace the green 5106s)
i.e :
you have to use the up (added green) 5146 coming to the L-point to drive the R-Point to turn right
you have to use the down (added green) 5146 coming to the R-point to drive the L-Point to turn left

Best Regards
Joël



Offline TEEWolf  
#7 Posted : 25 September 2018 00:47:33(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: Michael4 Go to Quoted Post

So in its revised form...

Blue (outer) train always has priority
Yellow (inner) train never has priority
Trains can run in either direction
No train longer than 3 track pieces (for this example only)

Green track is continually powered by a third controller.

Red 5146 switch actuates both ways, isolating both pink track sections on yellow track

Brown 5146 switches actuate on trains heading away from the 5117/R/L points only reconnecting power to both pink isolated sections on yellow track.

I think this starts to make sense and should prevent a pile up. On my layout the blue track is very much longer than the yellow track, both are buried in further complexity!

Comments and critique please!



Thanks Michael for the further definitions. Makes life much easier and helps to control the layout analogue only. The Split up in 3 electric circuit makes it more easier too. Then you can control your trains (very important the specified length of max. 3 wagons, because of the defined places for the necessary contact tracks toggling the trains) by signals.

If you define the green section always has current (except in emergency reason), then you only have to combine your signals in connection with blue and yellow sections.

The signal before a train is waiting has to be changed manually. If the signal is set to green, then all other signals had to remain at red automatically. The turnout directly behind the green setted signal is changing in the direction of the green signal. Then it has be determined in which direction the train shall go: straight ahead or in a curve. Setting the direction of the turnout manually too, does also supply the currentless segment in this direction of the red setted signal with current. So the train can pass from the back side the red signal.

If a track is chosen occupied by another train, then the green section should be set of any current. Then all trains stop in the green section and warn you something has gone wrong.

For cabling purposes I set up a few links with documentation (all with an English text) of these analogue connections, if you did not get it already anyway.

http://s341536299.online...341-model-signals-en.pdf

http://s341536299.online...iature-railway-h0-en.pdf

http://s341536299.online...-elektrischen-bahnen.pdf

http://s341536299.online...753-signal-anleitung.pdf


Hope it brings your forward in plannings.

Regards

TEEWolf
Offline Michael4  
#8 Posted : 25 September 2018 16:35:46(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 637
Location: England, South Coast
TEEWolf, Many thanks, all a great help.

You have also made me realise that I have spent too much time thinking about blocks, isolation etc and haven't spent enough time working out how to set the points!

Michael
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Offline TrainIride  
#9 Posted : 26 September 2018 10:20:11(UTC)
TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,904
Location: FRANCE
Originally Posted by: Michael4 Go to Quoted Post
TEEWolf, Many thanks, all a great help.

You have also made me realise that I have spent too much time thinking about blocks, isolation etc and haven't spent enough time working out how to set the points!

Michael


Unsure Don't you like my solution about the points ?

Offline Michael4  
#10 Posted : 26 September 2018 15:54:11(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 637
Location: England, South Coast
Hi TrainIride,

I'm so sorry, yes I do but at the time my focus was elsewhere. Your solution looks like the right way to go. I'll wait till the weather goes bad so that I have no desire to sit in the sun and then will have a go at setting it up.

Wiring up M track is for dark winter days!

Thanks for your help.

Michael
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Offline TEEWolf  
#11 Posted : 27 September 2018 03:47:52(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: TrainIride Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Michael4 Go to Quoted Post
TEEWolf, Many thanks, all a great help.

You have also made me realise that I have spent too much time thinking about blocks, isolation etc and haven't spent enough time working out how to set the points!

Michael


Unsure Don't you like my solution about the points ?



Don't worry. When he comes to the real construction and wiring, than he will remember you very quickly. Because you are the expert for analogue M-tracks, not me. I would solve this construction completly digital and with C-tracks. I am too old to assemble M-tracks anymore. My eyes are not as good as before and M-tracks are a real pain for me.BigGrin

My M-track layout was mainly built by my older brother. I was too young for it at that time. But I remember, when he built these "backwards through a closed signal running function for track current as well as catenary current combined with the turnout direction setting", he used some not writeable words. Laugh And he used your mentioned M-5146 contact tracks, which I still have today. Finally he did it and it was perfectly functioning, till my mother has this layout completly removed. Indeed I would be very happy today, if it still would exist.

Regards

TEEWolf
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Offline Michael4  
#12 Posted : 27 September 2018 11:44:28(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 637
Location: England, South Coast
Ah...5146 and its deviant relative 5147

They are the keys to a magical doorway that leads into another world where the ancient language is a mystery and the legendary artefacts are of no discernible use to modern man.

Within that world brave souls search for the Holy Grail, which is of course, the all seeing 6699.
Offline TEEWolf  
#13 Posted : 29 September 2018 19:48:19(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: Michael4 Go to Quoted Post
Ah...5146 and its deviant relative 5147

They are the keys to a magical doorway that leads into another world where the ancient language is a mystery and the legendary artefacts are of no discernible use to modern man.

Within that world brave souls search for the Holy Grail, which is of course, the all seeing 6699.


Isn't a magical key the 7244? Found by accident his picture



A Holy Grail seems to be unnecessary.
Offline Michael4  
#14 Posted : 30 September 2018 16:14:57(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 637
Location: England, South Coast
7244 looks far too modern for me, I assume it is some form of remote control switch? I use the venerable 7045.
Offline TEEWolf  
#15 Posted : 30 September 2018 17:26:34(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: Michael4 Go to Quoted Post
7244 looks far too modern for me, I assume it is some form of remote control switch? I use the venerable 7045.


I understand you. I know this "Universal Fernschalter" 7045 (do not kow the English word). My brother used it too, but again I have no idea about this article. I looked into the signal book (0341) where I sent you the link already (post #7).

Read from page 35 onwards. What you need I guess is on page 39 onwards. These circuit layouts use the 7045 and everything is written in English. You understand it better as I do.BigGrin

At the Stummi forum I found an article about the 7045 too. There are people having very similar solutions in mind as you do. Interesting in one answer a guy wrote that you do not need a 7045 necessarily, you also can use a normal regular signal, perhaps one where the signal arm has broken. Do not throw it away, use it as an 7045, he said.

Here is a link to a German railroad Wiki, if you want to translate it or perhaps you find a similar Wiki in English too. But in any case, the graphics of the circuit layouts in there may help you.

Controlling of an MRR in general

http://www.der-moba.de/i....php/Modellbahnsteuerung

for analogue operations

http://www.der-moba.de/i..._Beispiele_Analogbetrieb

I use this Wiki too, but for the digital controll of an MRR layout. So I only have a view with half an eye on the analogue activities - sorry.
Offline Michael4  
#16 Posted : 30 September 2018 17:39:54(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 637
Location: England, South Coast
Regarding 7045 or broken signal there is a difference.

Not very good at explaining these things but...

A broken signal can make or break a connection only.

7045 can switch power from one circuit to another.

Thanks for all the links,

Michael
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