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Offline Minok  
#1 Posted : 03 October 2017 01:03:27(UTC)
Minok

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Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
So its a bit of 1:1 scale and 1:87 / My Layout scale stuff.

Having grown up in a military family on the US Army side where we were stationed in Germany many times in the 70's, 80's, and 90's I've been around armor rolling around towns much of my youth.
So after resisting the urge to buy some old KFOR and MFOR stuff due to cost for so long the new Märklin train kit: 26606 with a ludmilla locomotive, a troop passengers silberling car, and six Leopard 2 tanks of the Bundeswehr, just finally broke me.. I had to order it. Order placed.

Capture.PNG

Ok, but now what. How do I integrate that train into a planned layout that was centered around passenger traffic with some freight between some industrial sites?
Well, the route already passed by sites that had military bases nearby (Mannheim, Bebra, Hanover) and a scenario of moving the materiel to Hamburg (already planned as an end station).. for transfer to ships to deploy overseas... ok that could work. But what to build. Its me, so of course, I need to overdo it to some extent.

So off to Google Image Search to see what other vehicles I might want, and eBay to see if I can get them and soon I've got an order for some MB Unimog trucks, VW Golf and T3 busses, as well as a host of Schuco made 1:87 scale models of Marder, Dingo, Boxer, and Fennek vehicles. That should stock a motor pool nicely and may allow for modifying the things I have on the transport train.

First, find out what building kits and landscape kits exist. Luckily Faller Military has the solutions for perimeter walls/fences, entry gates buildings, motor pool facilities, and with others additional motor pool facilities, loading ramps, concrete plate road surfaces I had the key elements to build a small and simple facility that would house armor type materiel and troops.

Capture.PNG

Now how to know what else might be there or how to interface with the rail system? OK, google search time...
Bundeswehr locations... the German army page has a nice map of where units are deployed SVG of locations German military bases. Seeing a big armor presence near Hanover at the General Field-marshal Rommel barracks in Augustdorf I go and find that on Google Maps to get some hints. The usual overheads of a military installation, barracks, admin buildings, motor pools.

But I'm wondering, how do columns of tanks get from that major armor facility onto the rail lines they surely use to move the armor to the eventual ships/planes for transport to deployment theater or other training sites? YouTube search found a video of unloading in Gütersloh station:



But that seems odd, given that is a looong drive on surface streets from Rommel facility to the freight loading yard.

https://goo.gl/maps/TRRf9WNBt8n
Capture.PNG


Indeed there was a news paper article where the issue of the column of tanks going to/from the station damaged some curbing on a section of road, where the military spokesman talks about that not being the typical place to transfer the tanks to the rail. Whew.. and here I was worried about having to put a trans-loading freight facility in a city. Nope, they normally load up the tanks in Bahnhof Sennelager. A quick check of Google Maps shows this is right next to the Rommel facility - down at the southern end (may still have British forces there as well).

https://goo.gl/maps/xaH2wAf6DBk
Capture.PNG

Capture.PNG

Now its just a question of how the tanks get from the huge training ground into the trains station. YouTube to the rescue... so on a simple morning your standing at the freight loading area of the small Sennelager station and suddenly a bunch of tanks roll around the corner....



So now I know they come down the Sennebahnhof Strasse.... one can then guess they just come across the Bielerfelder Strasse from the Küglerweg on the site, but thats not critical.

Still, for space reasons I may just put the loading ramp side of things in or just outside of the modeled armor barracks I'll build, and make it a stop along the run where I can fit it in. Hannover would be nice but thats just one short stretch to Hamburg on my planed layhout.. so maybe I'll move the armor to south of Mannheim... will see.

Edited by user 04 October 2017 16:52:19(UTC)  | Reason: Corrected name of tank to Leopard

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Offline SteamNut  
#2 Posted : 03 October 2017 10:24:52(UTC)
SteamNut

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I like it but for my self I prefer WWII as I have a large collection due to war gaming in my younger days. When I exam the picture I noticed the flat cars have 4 not 6 do the newer tanks weigh less then the Tiger and Panther tank? Fred
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Offline applor  
#3 Posted : 03 October 2017 10:25:53(UTC)
applor

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Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I like your choice of layout theme and look forward to seeing what you come up with. Definitely a cool train too!
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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Offline Minok  
#4 Posted : 03 October 2017 17:22:44(UTC)
Minok

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Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
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Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: SteamNut Go to Quoted Post
. When I exam the picture I noiticed the flat cars have 4 not 6 do the newer tanks weigh less then the Tiger and Panther tank? Fred


You are correct. It you look in the last video of the Panther tanks loading in those flat cars at Sennelager they have 6 wheels on each car end.

IMG_0312.PNG

Marklin just used a normal flat car for the set, not the right type, which would also have the fold down extensions on each car end so one can drive the tanks from car to car.

I can live with this inaccuracy but I can see how it might bother some folks. Wonder if a truck of 6 wheels would have issues with R1 turns I'll have lots of R1 as well.
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#5 Posted : 03 October 2017 18:31:41(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: SteamNut Go to Quoted Post
. When I exam the picture I noiticed the flat cars have 4 not 6 do the newer tanks weigh less then the Tiger and Panther tank? Fred


You are correct. It you look in the last video of the Panther tanks loading in those flat cars at Sennelager they have 6 wheels on each car end.

IMG_0312.PNG

Marklin just used a normal flat car for the set, not the right type, which would also have the fold down extensions on each car end so one can drive the tanks from car to car.

I can live with this inaccuracy but I can see how it might bother some folks. Wonder if a truck of 6 wheels would have issues with R1 turns I'll have lots of R1 as well.


That is strange, as Marklin have a six axle wagon in their range, and I am sure it was used in some of the 4MOR range with tanks on them, but I would have to go and look at the catalogue to check.

looks like the Bean Counters got at that set.
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Offline Minok  
#6 Posted : 03 October 2017 20:41:15(UTC)
Minok

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Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: SteamNut Go to Quoted Post
. When I exam the picture I noiticed the flat cars have 4 not 6 do the newer tanks weigh less then the Tiger and Panther tank? Fred


You are correct. It you look in the last video of the Panther tanks loading in those flat cars at Sennelager they have 6 wheels on each car end.

IMG_0312.PNG

Marklin just used a normal flat car for the set, not the right type, which would also have the fold down extensions on each car end so one can drive the tanks from car to car.

I can live with this inaccuracy but I can see how it might bother some folks. Wonder if a truck of 6 wheels would have issues with R1 turns I'll have lots of R1 as well.


That is strange, as Marklin have a six axle wagon in their range, and I am sure it was used in some of the 4MOR range with tanks on them, but I would have to go and look at the catalogue to check.

looks like the Bean Counters got at that set.


Looking at some MFOR sets they also had 2 axles at each end. So Marklin is sticking with its old solution of being wrong...
Capture.PNG

I expect creating a new flat car for just such loads is either not a valid business case (due to volumes they would sell vs cost of molding), or the mechanics of R1 turns. I suppose I could always add a dummy 3rd axel where the wheels don't contact the rails on each end and add the end fold-over parts if it ends up bugging me.
Or I can go with an Aritec car:
UserPostedImage

But then I'll have panzergrenadiers (mechanized infantry) walking around the panzer division site....
Capture.PNG
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#7 Posted : 03 October 2017 23:33:16(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post

I expect creating a new flat car for just such loads is either not a valid business case (due to volumes they would sell vs cost of molding), or the mechanics of R1 turns.


OK, so the MFOR one is also four axles - but as I said, there is already a six axle flat wagon in the Marklin range, it has been issued in a number of items with loads and as an empty flat car. Cannot recall the catalogue number off hand sorry.

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Offline dzug  
#8 Posted : 04 October 2017 00:42:41(UTC)
dzug

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Joined: 14/04/2011(UTC)
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http://www.bahnbilder.de...-militaerzuges-sind.html

The cars in this image seem to show the the 2+2 axle cars similar to the Marklin ones. I think I have the Eisenbahn Journal special on Military trains around somewhere here - I will see if it covers anything new.
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Offline Minok  
#9 Posted : 04 October 2017 01:25:24(UTC)
Minok

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Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: dzug Go to Quoted Post
http://www.bahnbilder.de/bild/deutschland~gueterverkehr~militartransporte/599821/im-hinteren-teil-des-militaerzuges-sind.html

The cars in this image seem to show the the 2+2 axle cars similar to the Marklin ones. I think I have the Eisenbahn Journal special on Military trains around somewhere here - I will see if it covers anything new.


Cool. Thanks. That then shows that 2+2 is also a valid way of transporting the Leopard tanks and thats good enough I suppose.

Capture.PNG
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Offline klarinettmeister  
#10 Posted : 04 October 2017 01:58:35(UTC)
klarinettmeister

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Location: Kirseberg
Strange.

Here is my 26290 LRG_DSC01103.JPG. The cars loaded with tanks has 6 axles. Also the car 48717 has 6 axles which is loaded with a Leopard 2. The car is much longer than the car from 48729 which is loaded with a Fuchs. I guess the 4 axle cars from the new set are those 48729 cars because they look shorter.
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Offline PJMärklin  
#11 Posted : 04 October 2017 08:36:01(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
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Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post


OK, so the MFOR one is also four axles - but as I said, there is already a six axle flat wagon in the Marklin range, it has been issued in a number of items with loads and as an empty flat car. Cannot recall the catalogue number off hand sorry.




48662, 48663, 48665, 48667, 48668, 48671, 48673, 48675, 48683, 48684,48710, 48715, 48731, 48736, 48755, 48756 and also 48717 as noted by David.

Regards,

PJ
Offline xxup  
#12 Posted : 04 October 2017 08:54:02(UTC)
xxup

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Is that all you could find PJ? LOL
Adrian
UserPostedImage
Australia flag by abFlags.com
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#13 Posted : 04 October 2017 11:16:33(UTC)
Alsterstreek

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Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
... and six Panther 2 tanks of the Bundeswehr,...

Actually Leopard 2A6 MBT.
:o)
2017-10-04_10-14-52.png

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Offline Alsterstreek  
#14 Posted : 04 October 2017 11:53:10(UTC)
Alsterstreek

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Four-axle heavy-load flat cars seem to be the choice now, even for the heavy Leopards - see pix: http://www.panzerbaer.de..._ebtrsp_flachwagen-a.htm

According to Wikipedia (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flachwagen), a German "Panzertransport" four-axle car type SSy Köln can carry up to 50 t and accommodate a maximum length of 8800 or 9500 mm and a six-axle car type SSyms Köln can carry up to 80 t and accommodate a maximum length of 1120 or 1190 mm. Maerklin modelled the successor car type Rlmmps. I could not find any Rlmmps specifications, but the current general DB cargo price list lists a maximum loading weight of ca. 66 t for four-axle and 77 t for six-axle heavy load flat cars.

Leopard 2A6 combat weight is 60.1 t. Source: http://www.panzerbaer.de...w_kpz_leopard_2_a6-a.htm
So, four-axle flat cars can indeed carry a Leopard 2A6.
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#15 Posted : 04 October 2017 12:10:10(UTC)
Alsterstreek

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However, the above maximum loads are only possible on the best roadbed category. Thus, roadbed weight limits might command the usage of six-axle to reduce axle load. For example. the maximum load of a DB Cargo flat car Rns-z 643 flat car ranges from 40 to 66 tons depending on the roadbed class - see screenshot from DB cargo price list: gueterwagenkatalog_v2011.pdf (4,927kb) downloaded 17 time(s).

2017-10-04_11-04-22.png
Offline Alsterstreek  
#16 Posted : 04 October 2017 13:48:06(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
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More trivia and food for thought regarding prototypically correct (un)loading of rail cars:

Mobile ramp:
bw_ebtrsp_zkr_2003-2898i.jpg
http://www.panzerbaer.de...lper/bw_ebtrsp_zkr-a.htm

Leopard 2 emergency "Panzersprung" (neither good for tank and nor for flat car):
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Offline Minok  
#17 Posted : 04 October 2017 16:48:57(UTC)
Minok

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Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
... and six Panther 2 tanks of the Bundeswehr,...

Actually Leopard 2A6 MBT.
:o)
2017-10-04_10-14-52.png



Good catch. Hunting down all the vehicles which are all animal names I got confused. Should have been more careful in the post. Will fix it in the post.


I asked Märklin customer service about the 2 axels vs 3 axels in some prototypes and their response is
"das stimmt. Unsere Modelle entsprechen nicht dem Vorbild."
In English "correct, our model is not prototypical"

In light of our discussion here it's clear the customer support at Märklin isn't able to asnwer the actual question but just look at superficial data. Had they been as geeky as we are they would have been able to come up with the justification from reality that does exist.

Edited by moderator 09 October 2017 20:39:07(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline dominator  
#18 Posted : 05 October 2017 23:18:28(UTC)
dominator

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Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
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Location: Kerikeri
Great information and videos here. I am also doing a late ww2 scene but with ME109's rather than tanks. I also have some of the 4m4 leopards, and it takes a good loco to pull them as they are really heavy. I wonder if anyone knows of a supply of camouflage netting, as with my ME109 setup, I wish to have them concealed between trees draped with camo netting. I am sure something like that must have been done to protect those valuable planes from being seen from the air. The runways were probably a dead give away though.
Dereck
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
Offline Minok  
#19 Posted : 06 October 2017 00:21:39(UTC)
Minok

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Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
Great information and videos here. I am also doing a late ww2 scene but with ME109's rather than tanks.


You should add some ME262 as well, given its historical significance just for the cool/story telling factor.


Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
I wonder if anyone knows of a supply of camouflage netting, as with my ME109 setup, I wish to have them concealed between trees draped with camo netting. I am sure something like that must have been done to protect those valuable planes from being seen from the air. The runways were probably a dead give away though.
Dereck


For cammo netting (tarnnetz) I could find 1:35 scale - maybe that will work for you.
UserPostedImage
Made by Tetra Model Works in Korea and resold by various shops.

Or this 1:87 stuff:
UserPostedImage
http://www.diorama-shop....-x-29-cm-1-87::1052.html
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Offline dominator  
#20 Posted : 06 October 2017 02:14:35(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,195
Location: Kerikeri
Thanks for that. Yes I have a couple of those early jets [ 262 and another I cant remember. Got them in a deal for about 12 x 109"s and 2 Huey"s and some FW190's.] Have just this week used my airbrush to paint the underside of 9 of the 109's. Its been a long time since I airbrushed so was good practice. Next comes the 2 different top colours.

many thanks again.

Dereck
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
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Offline NS1200  
#21 Posted : 06 October 2017 12:09:02(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Slightly off topic,i know.

A Dutch Leopard tank testing its brakes.
In the army one has to trust your comrades at all times.



When i was in the Dutch army at Seedorf,Germany,in 1976/1977,we saw the first Leopard 1 tanks appearing,very impressive at that time.
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
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Offline Minok  
#22 Posted : 09 October 2017 19:00:35(UTC)
Minok

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Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
To follow up with some data, to my inquiry to Märklin USA, which routed the question to a different group from the main Märklin Germany contact page (I think, or they came up with a better answer ).. . this is the photo they sent and indicated they modeled the train after:

mi003.jpg
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Offline Jabez  
#23 Posted : 09 October 2017 22:33:03(UTC)
Jabez

Belgium   
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Location: Brussels
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post

A Dutch Leopard tank testing its brakes.

Should the caption not be a group of young people testing their confidence in the Leopard's brakesBigGrin

I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams
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Offline NS1200  
#24 Posted : 10 October 2017 07:37:32(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Jabez,

You may be right.

As a bonus,here a clip of a Dutch Leopard 2 versus a Tiger 1 tank,interesting confrontation,both German made and both formidable:

Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#25 Posted : 11 October 2017 14:03:48(UTC)
Alsterstreek

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Location: Hybrid Home
For inspiration.
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Offline NS1200  
#26 Posted : 11 October 2017 20:19:36(UTC)
NS1200

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Posts: 3,443
Alsterstreek:

Nice,obviously reflecting a DDR operation.
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
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Offline Minok  
#27 Posted : 11 October 2017 21:35:55(UTC)
Minok

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Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Very cool. Rolling road car system solutions are beyond what I want to implement, but it is very cool to see.

Given the tight coupling of the flat cars for support of the guide-path and drive-ability, I imagine that train cannot go around any curves though.
The military vehicle models I am in the process of acquiring, like the Märklin tank load, are metal bodied, so too heavy to be Car System enabled. But cool to see the implementation.
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#28 Posted : 11 October 2017 23:51:21(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Very cool. Rolling road car system solutions are beyond what I want to implement, but it is very cool to see.

Given the tight coupling of the flat cars for support of the guide-path and drive-ability, I imagine that train cannot go around any curves though.
The military vehicle models I am in the process of acquiring, like the Märklin tank load, are metal bodied, so too heavy to be Car System enabled. But cool to see the implementation.


Yeah, I was wondering how the tank moved, it seems to me that there are conventional wheels hidden underneath as the tracks didn't appear to move, and the steering was too smooth for tracked steering.

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Offline NS1200  
#29 Posted : 12 October 2017 05:00:37(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
During the first few seconds of the clip there is a sign in German which says that the layout is scale TT 1/120 and that the vehicles were adjusted for the Faller carsystem.

Here is another clip from the same layout,with "firing" tanks:



And real life loading of German Leopard tanks on 4-axle cars:



Pulled by a Ludmilla loco,as from 6:00 minutes it starts to get spectecular:

Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
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Offline Minok  
#30 Posted : 12 October 2017 07:35:31(UTC)
Minok

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Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Sure the scale is all over the board at 1:72, 1:90, 1:87 and may well be counterfeit knockoff but hey from 2 ft away will you know that one soldier is 2 mm taller than the others?? The command coming together.

IMG_0354.PNG


Ok it's more than 2mm. It's 25% larger.

IMG_0356.PNG

But I'm betting it's only this obvious when they stand near each other. If I keep the groups separated such as the 1:72 guys standing in formation in the middle of a parade ground by themselves away from vehicles and buildings and the 1:87 guys I think it may work. Otherwise some MiWuLa style surgery may be called for.
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Offline Minok  
#31 Posted : 10 February 2018 01:47:59(UTC)
Minok

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Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Update: my 26606 set has arrived and been tested.



The 2018 new cars have been ordered as well to supplement the train with some possibility of variety of not just being Leopard 2 tanks, but also having other vehicles.
I'd ordered a 48794 with a Fuchs armored personnel carrier, and a 48797 with a MAN 10 tonne truck.

Combined with the various other Schuco vehicles


26239 Bundeswehr vehicle Boxer, 8 wheel armored vehicle
26243 Bundeswehr vehicle Dingo I, 4 wheel armored personel car.
26243 Bundeswehr vehicle Dingo I, 4 wheel armored personel car.
26248 Bundeswehr vehicle Fennek, 4 wheel armored intel car
26250 Bundeswehr vehicle Unimog S 404, 4 wheel truck
26424 Bundeswehr vehicle Marder, panzergrenadier armored cav


I'd already acquired I should be able to make an interesting mix.
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Offline BR01097  
#32 Posted : 10 September 2018 01:17:52(UTC)
BR01097

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Location: Denver, Colo. USA

Until recently, Märklin offered only post-war rolling stock and other than locomotives, very limited international fare. As an avid collector, models span the half-century from 1920, including a few to reflect a less-discussed period of German history. The Steppenpferd seemed like a natural choice whose domain of operation usually lay in the plains east of Berlin.1445870666_47a2dda590_b.jpg1445870678_f7a1a0f049_b.jpg

____________________________________________________________________________

Collector of Märklin fine-quality trains since 1966.




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Offline Minok  
#33 Posted : 10 September 2018 01:52:52(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
TO keep things here as well, here are the two additional 2018 vehicle flatcars I put picked up.

48794 Fuchs 1 (TPz1)
IMG_1751.PNG

48797 MAN 10t GL truck
IMG_1752.PNG

And the separate motor pool vehicles I can swap in place of the Leopard tanks.

IMG_0374.PNG

Which includes the following vehicles.

26239 Bundeswehr vehicle Boxer, 8 wheel armored vehicle
26243 Bundeswehr vehicle Dingo I, 4 wheel armored personel car.
26243 Bundeswehr vehicle Dingo I, 4 wheel armored personel car.
26248 Bundeswehr vehicle Fennek, 4 wheel armored intel car
26250 Bundeswehr vehicle Unimog S 404, 4 wheel truck
26424 Bundeswehr vehicle Marder, panzergrenadier armored cav

Edited by user 10 September 2018 20:24:40(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Minok
Offline Jabez  
#34 Posted : 12 September 2018 20:13:54(UTC)
Jabez

Belgium   
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 636
Location: Brussels
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post

Pulled by a Ludmilla loco,as from 6:00 minutes it starts to get spectecular:


Wow! The smoke! Was that one of the coal fired Ludmillas?OhMyGod
Jabez

I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Jabez
Offline mike c  
#35 Posted : 19 September 2018 03:51:35(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
I found some photos on bahnbilder.ch that might be of interest here:

https://bahnbilder.ch/pictures/original/30306.jpg
https://bahnbilder.ch/pictures/original/30307.jpg

More here: https://bahnbilder.ch/newest
(the photos will be on the first two pages for a limited time until new photos take their place)

Enjoy and regards

Mike C
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by mike c
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