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Offline michelvr  
#1 Posted : 16 January 2018 15:04:02(UTC)
michelvr

Canada   
Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,287
So here I am a new owner of the Marklin Central Station 3 plus.

What is written below is to be taken with a grain of salt. "(With) a grain of salt", (or "a pinch of salt") is an idiom of the English language, which means to view something with skepticism or not to interpret something literally.

And my first impression are;

I think I got taken by all the smoke and mirrors!

Just to be clear so that no one gets hurt and for the faint of heart what that means from us North Americans is;

Smoke and mirrors is an idiom for a deceptive, fraudulent or insubstantial explanation or description. The source of the name is based on magicians' illusions, where magicians make objects appear or disappear by extending or retracting mirrors amid a distracting burst of smoke. Another source is based on the Aztec god of the night sky, a trickster also in charge of temptation, illusion and magic, named Tezcatlipoca (lit: Smoking Mirror). The expression may have a connotation of virtuosity or cleverness in carrying out such a deception.

Remember this is only my first impression of the Marklin Central Station 3 plus and today is another day of my journey with the Marklin Central Station 3 plus.

Let the games (discussions) begin.
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Offline Thewolf  
#2 Posted : 16 January 2018 15:21:28(UTC)
Thewolf

Canada   
Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 2,035
Location: Saint Mathias dur Richelieu-Canada
Hi Michel Blink

Maybe what means that you are disappointed? No?

Thewolf
Project The Richelieu Valley Railway-CS2-Track C- Itrain-Digital
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Offline michelvr  
#3 Posted : 16 January 2018 15:53:49(UTC)
michelvr

Canada   
Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,287
Originally Posted by: Thewolf Go to Quoted Post
Hi Michel Blink

Maybe what means that you are disappointed? No?

Thewolf


Bonjour,

No disappointed I am not. It just lacks user defined imputs. For example the voltage and current can not be changed. Is that goood or bad I don't know. But right now if I create a short it takes a long time for the CS3 to shut down the power. For me that is danger danger Mr. Robinson.

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Offline michelvr  
#4 Posted : 16 January 2018 16:08:29(UTC)
michelvr

Canada   
Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,287
To be honest I'm impressed but it lacks the bells and whistles of a top end DCC system.

Then again if my memory is correct Marklin likes to keep their products proprietary. Which most likely is a good thing so that the user does not change the way the system is designed to run. Back to running my trains.

Bells and whistles "Special features that are added to a product or system to attract more buyers: Manufacturers still build luxury cars with all the bells and whistles." Cambridge Dictionary
Offline TEEWolf  
#5 Posted : 18 January 2018 02:25:29(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: michelvr Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Thewolf Go to Quoted Post
Hi Michel Blink Maybe what means that you are disappointed? No?
Thewolf


Bonjour,

No disappointed I am not. It just lacks user defined imputs. For example the voltage and current can not be changed. Is that goood or bad I don't know. But right now if I create a short it takes a long time for the CS3 to shut down the power. For me that is danger danger Mr. Robinson.


First
here is the link to another thread about the current for a CS 3.

https://www.marklin-user...Marklin-CS3-User-Setting

second
indeed the CS 3 is a proprietary controller, if you want to use mfx+. I bought mine because of the mfx+ usage. But I have to confess, I underestimated it, because I am still searching books about "how to drive a loco." Help is welcome.

With a CS 3 you can start quickly to drive trains, but it is not easy to understand it in its whole complexity. So I recommend to everybody - who bougth a CS 3 - to buy the Maerklin book 03092

https://www.maerklin.de/...s/details/article/03092/

too. The manual you have to download from Maerklin's homepage

https://www.maerklin.de/...ts/details/article/60216
or directly
https://static.maerklin....065db123781498138103.pdf

is not sufficient nevertheless helpful too. Because Maerklin delivers with the CS 3 no manual, just a brochure about connecting the CS 3.




Offline Swimmer  
#6 Posted : 18 January 2018 08:15:43(UTC)
Swimmer

South Africa   
Joined: 18/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 33
Location: Centurion
Hi,

I have bought the book and there is tons of information in it.

I also first thought that I had made a mistake, but after the boot I was quite impressed.

Regards
Carsten
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Offline michelvr  
#7 Posted : 18 January 2018 15:29:46(UTC)
michelvr

Canada   
Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,287
Hi TEEWolf and Carsten,

Thank you for your responses.

To be honest the book, Article No. 03092 "Controlling Digitally with the Central Station 3" was the catalyst for purchasing the CS3.

I actually bought the book in December and was quite impressed with what was written and how the Marklin architecture works. There are some neat features that I did not know about. The book basically was an eye opener for me into the way Marklin trains operate.

So because of the knowledge gained by reading and understanding what the book is telling I'll start a new post so that this post stays on the Marklin CS3.
Offline Thewolf  
#8 Posted : 18 January 2018 16:46:45(UTC)
Thewolf

Canada   
Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 2,035
Location: Saint Mathias dur Richelieu-Canada
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: michelvr Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Thewolf Go to Quoted Post
Hi Michel Blink Maybe what means that you are disappointed? No?
Thewolf


Bonjour,

No disappointed I am not. It just lacks user defined imputs. For example the voltage and current can not be changed. Is that goood or bad I don't know. But right now if I create a short it takes a long time for the CS3 to shut down the power. For me that is danger danger Mr. Robinson.


First
here is the link to another thread about the current for a CS 3.

https://www.marklin-user...Marklin-CS3-User-Setting

second
indeed the CS 3 is a proprietary controller, if you want to use mfx+. I bought mine because of the mfx+ usage. But I have to confess, I underestimated it, because I am still searching books about "how to drive a loco." Help is welcome.

With a CS 3 you can start quickly to drive trains, but it is not easy to understand it in its whole complexity. So I recommend to everybody - who bougth a CS 3 - to buy the Maerklin book 03092

https://www.maerklin.de/...s/details/article/03092/

too. The manual you have to download from Maerklin's homepage

https://www.maerklin.de/...ts/details/article/60216
or directly
https://static.maerklin....065db123781498138103.pdf

is not sufficient nevertheless helpful too. Because Maerklin delivers with the CS 3 no manual, just a brochure about connecting the CS 3.






Hi TeewolfCool

There would not be the same book for cs2 regarding the conduct of trains?

Thank you for your reply

Thewolf



Project The Richelieu Valley Railway-CS2-Track C- Itrain-Digital
Offline Minok  
#9 Posted : 18 January 2018 22:11:26(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,311
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: michelvr Go to Quoted Post

No disappointed I am not. It just lacks user defined imputs. For example the voltage and current can not be changed. Is that goood or bad I don't know. But right now if I create a short it takes a long time for the CS3 to shut down the power. For me that is danger danger Mr. Robinson.


The voltage of the system is defined by Marklin - so for a digital system, its designed to run on the one voltage that the MFX spec indicates, if I'm not mistaken. There would be no need to modify the voltage output from the digital controller. Current is determined by the draw from the consuming equipment, within the limitations of the power supply.

The CS3 should detect a short circuit rather quickly. If you have set it up with the wrong information about which power supply you are using (and/or using the wrong one), the the trigger current for a short circuit detection may not be set correctly. Likewise, if there is wiring connections that are not good or the wire is too thin or damaged, then the current flow the CS3 can detect at its terminals will not be high enough to register as a short.

So I'd check the CS3 configuration to ensure you have it set for the correct power supply and your using the correct power supply for your scale of train, and then make sure your wiring on the track is solid and sufficient.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 19 January 2018 08:10:30(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,262
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
so for a digital system, its designed to run on the one voltage that the MFX spec indicates, if I'm not mistaken.
What is the mfx spec?
The maximum digital voltage is given as 22 V on current loco boxes.
The track voltage is about 16 V when using a standard MS2 configuration and about 22 V when using a standard CU 6021 configuration or a CS with a transformer.

Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
There would be no need to modify the voltage output from the digital controller.
The recommended track voltage is about 17 V for two-rail H0, about 15 V for N gauge, about 12 V for Z gauge.
Some Märklin H0 locos work better with 19 V or more.
For I gauge and 2m gauge people use even higher voltages.

Decoders drive motors with short pulses of the maximum voltage (track voltage minus losses in the decoder). Lower track voltages reduce the wear on the motor. Therefore the lower voltages for N and Z.
If a manufacturer makes one controller for all gauges, adjusting the track voltage is an important feature.
The ECoS comes with an adjustable power supply (and a standard plug).
The CS3 comes without power supply. Just buy a power supply with the correct voltage for your needs. 19 V DC will do for three-rail H0.
An adjustable power supply allows to start with a low voltage level to reduce motor wear, but increase the voltage in small increments when problems are encountered.

One downside of the ESU approach: the power supply ships with the lowest voltage level selected. Three-rail users that operate it without reading the manual and without adjusting the voltage will sooner or later encounter problems.
Power supplies with a fixed voltage avoid such support cases or such frustrating experiences.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Minok  
#11 Posted : 19 January 2018 21:24:05(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,311
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
There would be no need to modify the voltage output from the digital controller.

The recommended track voltage is about 17 V for two-rail H0, about 15 V for N gauge, about 12 V for Z gauge.


In a digital solution, nothing should be connected straight to the digital power to drive the accessory, right? It should all be driven across the decoder I would expect, and the decoder for the device/scale/motor then steps down the voltage to the appropriate level needed for the device/motor. Or is that not the case?
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline michelvr  
#12 Posted : 19 January 2018 21:52:14(UTC)
michelvr

Canada   
Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,287
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
There would be no need to modify the voltage output from the digital controller.

The recommended track voltage is about 17 V for two-rail H0, about 15 V for N gauge, about 12 V for Z gauge.


In a digital solution, nothing should be connected straight to the digital power to drive the accessory, right? It should all be driven across the decoder I would expect, and the decoder for the device/scale/motor then steps down the voltage to the appropriate level needed for the device/motor. Or is that not the case?


Hello Minok,

Yes that is correct.

For myself I know a lot but I’m no expert so finding the correct answers is derived from standard(s) such as the NMRA for North America. Not knowing the standard for Europe I have a disadvantage in answering the question.

As I am not in a position of authority* to answer correctly please check out the NMRA specifications.

*I know but what I know is not from an established academic institution only from the school of hard knocks!

https://www.nmra.org/sit.../pdf/S-9.1.2_2012_07.pdf

Edited by user 20 January 2018 16:17:00(UTC)  | Reason: “To write is human, to edit is divine.” — Stephen King

Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 20 January 2018 09:07:55(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,262
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
It should all be driven across the decoder I would expect, and the decoder for the device/scale/motor then steps down the voltage to the appropriate level needed for the device/motor. Or is that not the case?
Decoders use PWM - pulse width modulation.
To have a loco at low speed there will be short pulses of full voltage with longer pauses between the pulses.
Run a loco with 24 V digital track voltage and the motor will get pulses of 20+ V. Maybe not the best idea for Z gauge motors.

Pulses are short and the motor will not overheat. But the sparking at the brushes increases with the voltage causing more wear on the brushes. And "maintenance-free" motors where brushes cannot be replaced are becoming more common with Märklin and other MRR brands.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline michelvr  
#14 Posted : 20 January 2018 15:42:44(UTC)
michelvr

Canada   
Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,287
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
It should all be driven across the decoder I would expect, and the decoder for the device/scale/motor then steps down the voltage to the appropriate level needed for the device/motor. Or is that not the case?
Decoders use PWM - pulse width modulation.
To have a loco at low speed there will be short pulses of full voltage with longer pauses between the pulses.
Run a loco with 24 V digital track voltage and the motor will get pulses of 20+ V. Maybe not the best idea for Z gauge motors.

Pulses are short and the motor will not overheat. But the sparking at the brushes increases with the voltage causing more wear on the brushes. And "maintenance-free" motors where brushes cannot be replaced are becoming more common with Märklin and other MRR brands.


Hello Tom, thanks for your reply.

Please remember I'm located in North America and I am referencing from NMRA/Marklin and North America DCC companies to get the facts. ThumpUp

So to make is understandable and easy to read below is a simple explanation how a DCC decoder works,

From “The NCE Information Station”:

DCC uses an indirect approach to control the engine speed. The motor is NOT connected directly to the track but is instead connected to a miniature computer device which itself applies a DC voltage to the motor to control the speed of the engine. The mini computer knows what voltage and polarity to apply to the motor based on digital commands sent to it over the track.*

*https://ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/200526469-What-is-DCC

At which voltage you set for the the scale is important.

Recommended voltages
Z-scale 9v
N-scale 12v
HO-scale 13.8/14v
O-scale 18v
G-scale 22v

With Drool MYDrool Marklin Central Station 3 and the Marklin 60065 switched mode power pack. The input is 120 volts / 60 Hertz and the output is 19 volts / 50 watts DC voltage.
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Offline TEEWolf  
#15 Posted : 21 January 2018 05:28:28(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Quote:
Hi TeewolfCool

There would not be the same book for cs2 regarding the conduct of trains?

Thank you for your reply

Thewolf



Hello Thewolf,

yes, there is a book also for the CS 2 available.

https://www.maerklin.de/...s/details/article/03081/

But unfortunately it is only in German, not translated. Even the manual for a CS 2 (which is in German detailed, much more than for the CS 3)

https://www.maerklin.de/...s/details/article/60215/

I could not find in the internet. A few of articles were published in various Maerklin Magazine. There these are in English availbale perhaps you may find there a little help.

regards

TEEWolf

Offline H0  
#16 Posted : 21 January 2018 09:03:27(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,262
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: michelvr Go to Quoted Post
So to make is understandable and easy to read below is a simple explanation how a DCC decoder works,
ESU decoders for H0 gauge do not work this way, Märklin decoders for H0 gauge do not work this way.
Both use PWM to drive the motor.

A decoder that drives the motor with a constant reduced voltage either needs huge heat sinks or it must work like a switching-mode power supply.

The decoders I know use PWM to reduce the effective voltage passed to the motor without reducing the peak voltage passed to the motor.

Simple explanations sometimes oversimplify things.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Minok  
#17 Posted : 22 January 2018 21:26:53(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,311
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
For HO the PWM method is probably the right way to go - and given space limitations it make sense to not have to regulate the power and instead just flip it off and on, adjusting the active period in the duty cycle. Is that also the case for Z scale? I'd not done the math to see what the heat dissipation would be or a linear regulator IC for surface mount chips would be if they took the track voltage and regulated it to the required Z scale voltages which is then fed to the rest of the decoder - which is then PWM regulated to the motor. Not being a Z scale enthusiast, I imagine there are all sorts of unique issues at that scale. One YouTube channel I follow mentioned a few controllers that the manufacturer only indicated as working scale N and larger, but they apparently work just fine at Z scale, so I'm guessing there is some allowance for voltages going on in the electronics.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Minok
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