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Offline sjbartels  
#1 Posted : 17 August 2017 05:06:35(UTC)
sjbartels

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,091
Ok, so lets exclude the possibility of me at the moment, here is my dilemma....

I have two Marklin loco's with the same address (basic four address decoder without dipswitches) and a Piko AC locomotive. I wish to change addresses, I can retrieve the current address from the locomotive no problem, complete with lights flashing and all that good stuff, however, it wont let me send a new address back. Normally I'd consult the manual (HAH!), but this is getting downright frustrating. I've changed addresses in this way before, but this is the first time I've been having these problems. Suggestions are welcome!

My fear, since I have changed others prior, is low end decoders that just don't want to be changed!
American by Geography, Australian by Birth. I am an original Ameristraylian
Offline franciscohg  
#2 Posted : 17 August 2017 05:27:37(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,266
Location: Patagonia
Hi Sancho, wich locos? Some old maerklin locos without DIP switches came with fixed adress, you were able to change to one other adress by means of bridging soldering pads in the PCB.
Regards
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline sjbartels  
#3 Posted : 17 August 2017 05:45:05(UTC)
sjbartels

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,091
Originally Posted by: franciscohg Go to Quoted Post
Hi Sancho, wich locos? Some old maerklin locos without DIP switches came with fixed adress, you were able to change to one other adress by means of bridging soldering pads in the PCB.
Regards


One is from starter set 29322 and the other is a SBB 460 that was converted with the basic 60760 kit. I think I'm a victim of hard programming, but optimistic there might be something. It's the Piko locomotive that is the biggest headache though
American by Geography, Australian by Birth. I am an original Ameristraylian
Offline franciscohg  
#4 Posted : 17 August 2017 06:02:02(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,266
Location: Patagonia
Strange, the 29322 should be able to get 255 adresses, same as 60760. Have you tried a deco reset in the 60760?
On the other hand, the age of the Piko may be of interest too. I had an old Fleischmann wich came with clear instructions for changing the adress with a 6021 but was impossible with the CS2.
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline sjbartels  
#5 Posted : 17 August 2017 06:52:58(UTC)
sjbartels

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,091
Originally Posted by: franciscohg Go to Quoted Post
Strange, the 29322 should be able to get 255 adresses, same as 60760. Have you tried a deco reset in the 60760?
On the other hand, the age of the Piko may be of interest too. I had an old Fleischmann wich came with clear instructions for changing the adress with a 6021 but was impossible with the CS2.


This is the whole intriguing part of this. I had another Piko lok I couldn't change the address in, yet a friend was able to with his CS2, he went about it in a whole different way. I am wondering whether I am approaching this wrong, even though it has worked in the past with other loks....
American by Geography, Australian by Birth. I am an original Ameristraylian
Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 17 August 2017 07:37:39(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: sjbartels Go to Quoted Post
I am wondering whether I am approaching this wrong, even though it has worked in the past with other loks....
Yes: not enough information! Wink

Some Piko locos have Uhlenbrock AnDi decoders that are a bit of a problem with modern controllers. More recent locos support DCC.
The instructions that come with the loco should tell you more.
The former have default address 78, the latter have default address 3.

Originally Posted by: sjbartels Go to Quoted Post
basic four address decoder without dipswitches
Programmable decoders (without DIP switches) support 127 or 255 addresses. Decoders with 4 DIP switches or 4 solder pads support 15 addresses (80 addresses with some extra soldering).

The 60760 can be programmed using the standard procedure.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline sjbartels  
#7 Posted : 17 August 2017 18:00:04(UTC)
sjbartels

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,091
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!
Originally Posted by: sjbartels Go to Quoted Post
I am wondering whether I am approaching this wrong, even though it has worked in the past with other loks....
Yes: not enough information! Wink

Some Piko locos have Uhlenbrock AnDi decoders that are a bit of a problem with modern controllers. More recent locos support DCC.
The instructions that come with the loco should tell you more.
The former have default address 78, the latter have default address 3.

Originally Posted by: sjbartels Go to Quoted Post
basic four address decoder without dipswitches
Programmable decoders (without DIP switches) support 127 or 255 addresses. Decoders with 4 DIP switches or 4 solder pads support 15 addresses (80 addresses with some extra soldering).

The 60760 can be programmed using the standard procedure.


First up, no dip switches on the decoders!

With the Piko locomotive, in the past I had one which I could never change, yet when I was with a friend and we worked with his CS2, he was able to.... but I have a feeling it went a different way doing it than I did. So that leads be into another question, is there another way to change the address aside from going into the locomotive screen, recalling the current address, editing, and sending back using the locomotive with the arrow key (pointed at the locomotive)?

As for the 60760, I full expect I can change it, yet like the example above, lets me call the address from the locomotive, and yes, it's 78, but when I try and change to anything, it just sits there and does nothing. Yet the same procedure with some of my other starter set locomotives, no problem changing the address using the exact same method. Its just very strange
American by Geography, Australian by Birth. I am an original Ameristraylian
Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 17 August 2017 19:58:37(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: sjbartels Go to Quoted Post
but when I try and change to anything, it just sits there and does nothing.
There is no "official" standard for programming MM decoders.
ESU invented a pattern, Uhlenbrock invented another pattern for the AnDi decoders. Märklin adopted the ESU pattern (they used ESU decoders after 2004).

The only chance with AnDi decoders is selecting the current address (78) for driving and then reversing the direction as quickly as possible for about 8 seconds. The lights should then be flashing. Known to work with MS. I never heard that anybody succeeded with the CS2.
Best to find somebody with a CU 6021 or an Intellibox.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline sjbartels  
#9 Posted : 06 November 2017 06:29:04(UTC)
sjbartels

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,091
Well all, thought I'd share a new and interesting tidbit on this, I have actually solved the problem and was able to change the address this evening on said Piko loco! I will take most of the responsibility for it, but I am still going to blame the documentation just a teeny bit so it's not all my fault. Long story short, when I initially set up the loco, I assigned it as a MM2 reprogrammable decoder, this evening I went ahead and reinstalled the lok and this time made it a DCC decoder and guess what, I was able to change the address no problem. So, a subtle thing that I set wrong at the beginning was the cause all along. The things you learn as you move along. Thanks to everyone who assisted me in what was a wild goose chase it seems! Tom was on the right track when he talked about the different decoders in Piko looks and that was the final piece in the puzzle when I was playing with this this evening, so Tom, between here and the facebook group, I owe you more than one beer!!!!
American by Geography, Australian by Birth. I am an original Ameristraylian
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by sjbartels
Offline grnwtrs  
#10 Posted : 06 November 2017 08:07:07(UTC)
grnwtrs

United States   
Joined: 18/06/2005(UTC)
Posts: 669
Location: El Sobrante, California
Thanks for the tip. (Big help)

I am trying to register a new BEMO H O SCALE lok "Glacier Express" and it won't run. I think that I tried
to register the lok as a mm2. It has a Loksound V 4.0 decoder w/railcom Plus.

This is my first BEMO lok, and a couple of cars. Really the first time I stepped off the reservation!
So far I can't get it to run on a CS2, There is always tomorrow. I hope!!!

Best regards,gene
Offline kiwiAlan  
#11 Posted : 06 November 2017 14:40:57(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: grnwtrs Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for the tip. (Big help)

I am trying to register a new BEMO H O SCALE lok "Glacier Express" and it won't run. I think that I tried
to register the lok as a mm2. It has a Loksound V 4.0 decoder w/railcom Plus.

This is my first BEMO lok, and a couple of cars. Really the first time I stepped off the reservation!
So far I can't get it to run on a CS2, There is always tomorrow. I hope!!!

Best regards,gene


Railcom plus in the decoder will mess with the mfx detection and vice versa. You need to put it on a system which does not have mfx and turn off railcom in the decoder.
Offline H0  
#12 Posted : 06 November 2017 15:05:57(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Railcom plus in the decoder will mess with the mfx detection and vice versa.
I think I never heard that before.
It seems there is no mfx in the decoder and since there is no RailCom in the CS2 I cannot see where problems should come from.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#13 Posted : 06 November 2017 15:49:20(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Railcom plus in the decoder will mess with the mfx detection and vice versa.
I think I never heard that before.
It seems there is no mfx in the decoder and since there is no RailCom in the CS2 I cannot see where problems should come from.



I have a controller that has railcom and when attempting to use a marklin loco that has mfx enabled (msd3 decoder) the controller was very confused with the 'replies' it was getting to Railcom messages. Once I turned off mfx in the loco I could use the DCC address to control the loco.

Offline H0  
#14 Posted : 06 November 2017 17:49:38(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
I have a controller that has railcom and when attempting to use a marklin loco that has mfx enabled (msd3 decoder) the controller was very confused with the 'replies' it was getting to Railcom messages. Once I turned off mfx in the loco I could use the DCC address to control the loco.
I see. But this thread is about an ESU decoder without mfx and a CS2 without RailCom.
Turning off mfx in the CS2 solves many problems, but turning off mfx in the ESU V4 decoder is not possible - unless the description is wrong and the decoder is ESU V4 M4.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#15 Posted : 06 November 2017 17:54:02(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
I have a controller that has railcom and when attempting to use a marklin loco that has mfx enabled (msd3 decoder) the controller was very confused with the 'replies' it was getting to Railcom messages. Once I turned off mfx in the loco I could use the DCC address to control the loco.
I see. But this thread is about an ESU decoder without mfx and a CS2 without RailCom.
Turning off mfx in the CS2 solves many problems, but turning off mfx in the ESU V4 decoder is not possible - unless the description is wrong and the decoder is ESU V4 M4.


But my theory is that the cs2 is sending mfx messages and the decoder is attempting to reply with railcom messages that are confusing the cs2, ending up with a similar loop to what I had. The solution I suspect is to turn off railcom in the decoder. To do this it may be necessary to turn off mfx in the cs2 so that one can program the decoder CVs.

Offline clapcott  
#16 Posted : 07 November 2017 01:01:46(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
But my theory is that the cs2 is sending mfx messages and the decoder is attempting to reply with railcom messages

In normal operation, if a RailCom capable decoder is replying to anything other a RailCom command AND/OR when there is no "cutout" window from the controller then it is faulty on two accounts.

If the layout/wiring is suspect and the decoder thinks it sees a reply "cutout" window, then it is still in error if it has never registered with the Controller as a RailCom device. i.e. it should never speak until spoken to.

However, if I understand correctly, a DCC configuration (CV) command is expected to be replied to by a RailCom decoder. So , with a CS2, we come back to the absence of a RailCom Cutout and , possibly, the misinterpretation of the mfx idle by the decoder.


P.S. Re RailCom specification
This specification is valid exclusively for use of RailCom when used with the NMRA DCC data format (protocols). The use of RailCom with other data formats is not permitted.
Peter
Offline H0  
#17 Posted : 07 November 2017 08:15:48(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
But my theory is that the cs2 is sending mfx messages and the decoder is attempting to reply with railcom messages that are confusing the cs2, ending up with a similar loop to what I had.
ESU V4 decoders are commonly used with the CS2. If there were a general problem we surely would have heard about it.

Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
possibly, the misinterpretation of the mfx idle by the decoder.
mfx idle means full track voltage, RailCom cutout means no track voltage. The decoder should be able to tell the difference.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline grnwtrs  
#18 Posted : 07 November 2017 08:18:14(UTC)
grnwtrs

United States   
Joined: 18/06/2005(UTC)
Posts: 669
Location: El Sobrante, California
Originally Posted by: grnwtrs Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for the tip. (Big help)

I am trying to register a new BEMO H O SCALE lok "Glacier Express" and it won't run. I think that I tried
to register the lok as a mm2. It has a Loksound V 4.0 decoder w/railcom Plus.

This is my first BEMO lok, and a couple of cars. Really the first time I stepped off the reservation!
So far I can't get it to run on a CS2, There is always tomorrow. I hope!!!

Best regards,gene


I COMPLETELY MISS SPOKE !!! In the above message, regrets to all

I do have a new BEMO Electric lok, it is # 1459 161, RhB Ge 4/4 III Nr. 641-652 H O DCC " GLACIER ON TOUR"
It has the loksound V4.0 decoder,w/Railcom plus ,the instruction sheet is numbered as 95453
The instruction sheet(s) has a great number of languages, none of which are in English, or American!
The latter two languages I can on rare occasions speak and understand, if slowly spoken or written.

The instruction lit. with the engine is missing the English portion for doing whatever is done to decoders.

I checked the CS2 setting for this LOK and find that I did indeed have it set to the DCC register.
My memory slipped, as I also added the MICKEY MOUSE LOK ALSO LAST NIGHT (ma 37535) and that is where I got the mm2 setting.

As obvious I haven't used a CS2 before, just bought it used and tried to "bull my way thru the settings" In all fairness, I did read 5 or so pages in one brochure.
I have the CS2 hooked up to a Marklin test stand, and the CS2 recognized the DCC settings, but the lok will not respond to the settings (icons) for
the lites, sounds, etc.

I tried to reset the decoder, but for some reason, the message back to me was "you must read the address as necessary"
Not to helpful to me.

I guess I had better read up some more, and try to devise a simple step by step procedure to read this thingie, or send it back .
I just don't understand why this is so difficult, I red a DCC decodeer on my MS2 for a track repair devise and had no troubled.

Thank to all for your invaluable help,
best regards, gene






Offline H0  
#19 Posted : 07 November 2017 08:26:30(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: grnwtrs Go to Quoted Post
I just don't understand why this is so difficult
It is fairly simple when you know what you are doing. But we do not know what you are doing, this makes it difficult to help.
The English user interface of the CS2 comes with some cryptic messages coz the meaning sometimes gets lost in translation. DCC with the CS2 is buggy and complicated, but there are known workarounds.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#20 Posted : 07 November 2017 17:40:14(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
But my theory is that the cs2 is sending mfx messages and the decoder is attempting to reply with railcom messages that are confusing the cs2, ending up with a similar loop to what I had.
ESU V4 decoders are commonly used with the CS2. If there were a general problem we surely would have heard about it.


This assumes the decoders in the OPs locos are M4 ones, and I don't see anything that establishes this yet. They could be non-M4 ones which will do MM2, but yet respond to railcom.

Offline H0  
#21 Posted : 07 November 2017 17:57:22(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
This assumes the decoders in the OPs locos are M4 ones, and I don't see anything that establishes this yet. They could be non-M4 ones which will do MM2, but yet respond to railcom.
More thread hijacker than OP.
Sounds like decoders without M4 to me, but both types support RailCom and DCC.
They could even be M4 decoders that ignore both MM and DCC in the presence of mfx.

ESU V4 decoders with and without M4 are frequently used with the CS2. We would know about it if there were general problems with that setup. I don't think that disabling RailCom in the decoder makes a difference.
But OK, let him disable RailCom in the decoder to see if that makes a difference.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline grnwtrs  
#22 Posted : 20 November 2017 09:36:31(UTC)
grnwtrs

United States   
Joined: 18/06/2005(UTC)
Posts: 669
Location: El Sobrante, California
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: grnwtrs Go to Quoted Post
I just don't understand why this is so difficult
It is fairly simple when you know what you are doing. But we do not know what you are doing, this makes it difficult to help.
The English user interface of the CS2 comes with some cryptic messages coz the meaning sometimes gets lost in translation. DCC with the CS2 is buggy and complicated, but there are known workarounds.



Thanks for the help! I still don't know what I am doing with this stuff, but was able to make some headway. I was able to reset the decoder, and like magic, I got a bunch of stuff like F-1---F-14 as being sound
options for my little BEMO Lok. Now all I have to do is find out what these options are. Squeally (sp) brakes off, etc. I will look it up in my my 0391 manual. I forgot to order the 0392 manual today.Laugh
The lok is a very smooth runner Very quiet. I am most pleased with it. Now back to the CS2 to review, and enter other loks.

Guess I should download the entire 85+ pages of the 5/12 Loksound V 4.0 manual for reference purposes. I hadn't planned in getting this involved with the digital stuff, as I just want to run some trains. (loks)
It's sure been a long arduous path since I first walked into the Berkeley Hardware store in 1968.

Thanks to all for your help, gene harvey


P.S. Just finished ordering an additional rake of the H O Bemo Glacier Express cars to go with the lok.
Nice stuff, but a bit expensive compared to Maerklin. That reminds me to stay on the reservation.

Offline H0  
#23 Posted : 20 November 2017 13:07:12(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
The manual that comes with the loco should tell you what F0 through F28 do (not all locos use all available function keys).
In the CS2 you can select an appropriate symbol for every function.
In the end the DCC loco looks on the screen like an mfx loco does - there is just a bit of extra work to select the images manually.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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