Joined: 11/05/2013(UTC) Posts: 488
|
Lately I have been replacing the smoke units in my HO collection and they are not that old or even used very often. Is there a expected life to these units? Does running then dry decrease the life of these units? I have been using Marklin's, Seuthe and some Blue Juice fluids. Also I run analog only - Fred
|
|
|
|
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC) Posts: 9,593 Location: Australia
|
Sometimes it is the smoke fluid.. I thought all of mine had gone until I tried a new batch of smoke fluid and they started working again.. Unfortunately, it seems, at least in a tropical climate, the smoke fluid seems to go off after a seven years. |
Adrian Australia flag by abFlags.com |
|
|
|
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
|
I have had my bottle of Blue Juice at least 10 years and it works fine. I have never had a smoke unit die yet, but they have not had many hours of use yet. |
|
|
|
|
Joined: 04/11/2016(UTC) Posts: 153 Location: Maryland, South Laurel
|
I believe that running the smoke units without smoke fluid will decrease the life of the unit. The fluid acts as a coolant for the heating element so running it without fluid may allow the element to operate at temperatures higher than it was designed for. With continued heating and cooling cycles the material becomes brittle and eventually fails. Think about how incandescent light bulbs fail.
David
|
|
|
|
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC) Posts: 636 Location: Brussels
|
The 7226 smoke generator kit comes with an extremely fine cleaning wire which, with the supplied tweezers, you can poke down the central hole of the generator. I found that this treatment revived one of my smoke generators which wasn't working. |
I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams |
 2 users liked this useful post by Jabez
|
|
|
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
|
Originally Posted by: AmalfiCoast  I believe that running the smoke units without smoke fluid will decrease the life of the unit. The fluid acts as a coolant for the heating element so running it without fluid may allow the element to operate at temperatures higher than it was designed for. With continued heating and cooling cycles the material becomes brittle and eventually fails. Think about how incandescent light bulbs fail.
David This is a good point, since you are running analog, these smoke units are being powered all the time. Mine are only on when I switch them on, so they are not always hot even when no fluid is present. |
|
|
|
|
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,875 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
|
Sometimes they don't work for different reasons, as Adrian mentioned, the tube has to be cleaned from time to time, contact between generator and contact plate or generator and metal boiler, to much fluid in the smoke stack, I wouldn't throw them out unless you absolutely sure they've had it, another way of testing them is put it on a track or use 2 wires and see if the unit gets hot
John |
|
 1 user liked this useful post by river6109
|
|
|
Joined: 06/01/2010(UTC) Posts: 263
|
Agree with John, if the unit still fells hot, then it should work. I have a fifty year old unit that still works well in a DA 800.
Here is what Seuthe says about their steam units: (http://seuthe-dampf.de/service/?lang=en), they could use a professional translator :) "Must be the steam generator always filled? As long as you do not exceed the permissible operating voltage, will not be damaged in dry run of the steam generator. In the analog domain, the voltage with the control knob is determined. Since no one constant full throttle drives, is burning through the steam generator unlikely."
I'd add that the smoke unit has a warm up time in analog mode, so if you run your trains in a frequent stop/go scenario, say run for 2 meters, then stop at a signal, then go again for another 2 meters, then the performance will not be great, and you might not even get steam at all. Most of the time, the "failures" I experience are due to a bad contact or overfilling. With overfilling, there is also a risk that fluid gets inside the loco, and accumulates on the contact for the smoke unit, this needs to be cleaned in this case.
On the 7226 units, the Seuthe 200 replacement smoke pipes have proven useful over time.
|
|
|
|
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,875 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
|
Smoke unit in a DA 800 ? it must be an after sale installation.
John |
|
|
|
|
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,319 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
|
I've got a limited experience with smoke generators - a total of 1 installs - putting the 7226 (a Seuth #10) in the 37899 driven with Seuth fluid. The issues I had were getting it to work initially, which had to do with the screwball way of aligning the contact on the bottom of the smoke generator with the copper contact inside the loco, never having taken appart the locomotive before or being able to see where the contact was. So of course I guessed wrong and didn't get contact - since you can insert it in any of 360 degrees of orientation variation. Once I got it aligned well, it worked like a charm. The design of that #10 is like a test-tube. There isn't a way for the fluid to get out except out of the top, which would be as its inserted down the chimney, dump fluid on the outside of the locomotive. I would expect short of me breaking the tube mechanically, that it would run forever. That said, the installation of the smoke generator in a plastic body Roco BR 012 I should be getting in 2018 will be more concerning as its more delicate, but I'd expect it to work solidly for years to come so long as I don't get it running so hot that it melts the loco body. |
|
|
|
|
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC) Posts: 636 Location: Brussels
|
I had initial problems with the contact alignment too until I opened up the loco to find the correct alignment. Originally Posted by: Minok  I would expect short of me breaking the tube mechanically, that it would run forever.
But it's more than a tube, the central heating-coil could become damaged or clogged. I suppose that's where the cleaning wire is useful. PS. Since the metal tube (brass?) is separated from the heating coil by an annular space which is filled with smoke fluid when filled or air when not, I think it likely that the heating coil would burn out before there could be enough heat transfer to the surrounding tube to melt the plastic body in which it is inserted. |
I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams |
|
|
|
Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC) Posts: 400
|
Definitely leaving them on while there's no smoke fluid kills them (this applies to types that aren't designed from the factory to be always on). Also make sure you choose the right power of the unit for the application. e.g. Seuthe #10 for digital (not always on) applications to get maximum smoke. Seuthe #11 for analog/always on applications (but they wont get as hot so not as much smoke when running).
I also try and drain whatever is left in there after using it.
The other thing I've found is using the KM1 smoke fluid works so much better than any of the others. The fluid doesn't have oil in it so it also doesn't leave that nasty residue on everything. Make sure to only use in Seuthe style generators (none of the 'live' smoke models like from ESU, Roco, etc. as the pumps on those rely on the oil).
|
 1 user liked this useful post by tulit
|
|
|
Joined: 06/01/2010(UTC) Posts: 263
|
Originally Posted by: tulit  Definitely leaving them on while there's no smoke fluid kills them (this applies to types that aren't designed from the factory to be always on). Also make sure you choose the right power of the unit for the application. e.g. Seuthe #10 for digital (not always on) applications to get maximum smoke. Seuthe #11 for analog/always on applications (but they wont get as hot so not as much smoke when running).
I also try and drain whatever is left in there after using it.
The other thing I've found is using the KM1 smoke fluid works so much better than any of the others. The fluid doesn't have oil in it so it also doesn't leave that nasty residue on everything. Make sure to only use in Seuthe style generators (none of the 'live' smoke models like from ESU, Roco, etc. as the pumps on those rely on the oil). Seuthe 10 is for ANALOG/ always on http://seuthe-dampf.de/w...ploads/2015/12/nr-10.jpgSeuthe 11 is for Digital http://seuthe-dampf.de/w...ploads/2015/12/nr-11.jpg
|
|
|
|
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,443 Location: DE-NW
|
Hi! Originally Posted by: MrB32  Seuthe 10 is for ANALOG/ always on In the past when the Seuthe site was not responsive, but was useful and had an FAQ list, they warned about operating smoke generators "dry" and a reduction of unit life time. They wrote this normally wasn't an issue for analogue operation as no one runs their trains constantly at full speed. They should know Märklinists better. Link to German site in the web archive (click FAQ): https://web.archive.org/...he-dampf.de:80/start.htmQuote:Muß der Dampfgenerator immer befüllt sein?
Solange man die zulässige Betriebsspannung nicht überschreitet, wird der Dampfgenerator im Trockenlauf keinen Schaden nehmen. Im Analogbereich wird die Spannung mit dem Fahrregler bestimmt. Da niemand konstant Vollgas fährt, ist ein Durchbrennen des Dampfgenerators unwahrscheinlich.
Im Digitalbetrieb sieht das anders aus, denn hier liegt immer die volle Spannung am Dampfgenerator an. Natürlich ist auch in diesem Fall der Dampfgenerator so ausgelegt, dass er die Höchstspannung im Trockenlauf verträgt. Trotzdem empfehlen wir - wenn möglich - den Dampfgenerator abzuschalten, wenn er leer ist. Das verlängert auf jeden Fall die Lebensdauer. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS  |
|
|
|
Joined: 15/12/2015(UTC) Posts: 523 Location: Maryland, Baltimore
|
I can only relate my experiences using Seuthe units but I have never had a unit go bad or burn up. I like the smoking feature so my unit usually don't go dry for too long a period. I also use only Seuthe fluid and since it's a cleaning fluid and I believe that it helps to keep the tube clean. When I have tried the more oily type fluids (thicker) like the kind sold for larger scale toy trains they would cause the tube in the smoke units to clog up rather quickly.
To my way of thinking analog use would be easier on the smoke units as they would spend less time at peak operating voltage with the exception of when you are operating the reverse unit. For that second or so It's actually operating at a way too high voltage.
Try removing the unit from the loco and apply voltage directly to the smoke unit to test if it's actually gone bad. It should start smoking almost immediately.
Good luck!
|
|
|
|
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,319 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
|
Originally Posted by: MrB32  Not sure about that assertion - because Märklin disagree with that assessment. 37899 is a factory digital locomotive, that is set up for the 7226 smoke generator, which is claimed by many to be the Seuth # 10, aimed at the 10-16v range. From images I can find of the 7226 (don't remember what mine looked like) the 7226 has the red bottom, that is the #10. The #11 for 16-22v power (green bottom) is not the one spec'ed by Märklin for the digital locomotive. |
|
|
|
|
Joined: 06/01/2010(UTC) Posts: 263
|
- Seuthe specifies in the instructions that Seuthe 11 is for Marklin digital/Delta 16/22v. - Marklin used to recommend Seuthe 11 for digital/delta operations until about 10 years ago. https://www.maerklin.de/...&tx_solr%5Bpage%5D=1- For newer models things are different: 7226/Seuthe 10 is the choice, Marklin has separated the smoke generator circuit from the headlight in most models. There is no longer a need for a specific unit as you have to press F1 to activate the smoke function. The unit is no longer at risk of burning out, unless someone leaves the function on and runs his model for 100s of hours... This is something to bear in mind when converting analogue locos and mounting the smoke unit in series with headlights.
|
|
|
|
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,443 Location: DE-NW
|
Originally Posted by: MrB32  - Seuthe specifies in the instructions that Seuthe 11 is for Marklin digital/Delta 16/22v. It's the effective voltage that matters. A smoke generator wired between centre rail and outer rail gets the full track voltage and you need No 11 for digital (Delta is digital). A smoke generator wired between decoder and outer rail gets a reduced voltage and you need No 10 for digital. You can always try No 11 first, even for analogue operation. Install No 10 if you don't get smoke from No 11. Originally Posted by: MrB32  This is something to bear in mind when converting analogue locos and mounting the smoke unit in series with headlights. It's more common to wire them in parallel. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS  |
 2 users liked this useful post by H0
|
|
|
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,319 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
|
Originally Posted by: H0  It's the effective voltage that matters. A smoke generator wired between centre rail and outer rail gets the full track voltage and you need No 11 for digital (Delta is digital).
A smoke generator wired between decoder and outer rail gets a reduced voltage and you need No 10 for digital.
Indeed that is the key I agree. There must have been a change in the way the wiring is done and the old ones were powered by full track voltage and the newer ones get the decoder output to power them which is lessor voltage. This highlights the need to stick to what the manufacturer indicates is the correct on for the model you have specifically, unless you have modified something about the model from factory state. |
|
|
|
|
Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.