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Offline river6109  
#1 Posted : 19 August 2017 09:52:55(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,715
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
all traffic from Switzerland to Germany's main line are blocked and they have to use a secondary line with diesel power to move freight and passengers



https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline NS1200  
#2 Posted : 19 August 2017 11:59:15(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Hundreds of freighttrains from Rotterdam port have been effected,the loss for transportcompanies in The Netherlands alone is estimated at Euro 10 million a day.
The line is called the aorta of European railtraffic.
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
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Offline GlennM  
#3 Posted : 19 August 2017 13:03:00(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,886
Location: Somewhere, But Nowhere Near Manchester, England
What was the reason for the blockage?
Don't look back, your not heading that way.
Offline steventrain  
#4 Posted : 19 August 2017 14:31:35(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,606
Location: United Kingdom
Originally Posted by: GlennM Go to Quoted Post
What was the reason for the blockage?


Wrote from Youtube.

'Due to the blocking of the Rhine valley railway after a tunnel collapse, the only freight train connection from the north to Switzerland is currently via the single-track Tübingen-Horb. This side-rail branchline is not electrified - it must be pre-tensioned a diesel locomotive each time to drag the train across. In addition, a highspeed train ICE "left behind" in Switzerland had to be returned to Germany mail rail lines.'
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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Offline NS1200  
#5 Posted : 19 August 2017 15:57:08(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Originally Posted by: GlennM Go to Quoted Post
What was the reason for the blockage?


Story goes it was tried to drill a tunnel under existing track with only 5 mtrs depth between the two levels.
Apparently this difference in depth was insufficient and the higher laying track collapsed.
Can imagine why this method was chosen,most likely not to interupt the 24/7 railtraffic from North Europe to South Europe,the result is however disastreous for ports like Rotterdam and Hamburg.
Incredible to realise that hundreds and hundreds of freighttrains have to travel a specific piece of track without any escaperoute.

Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
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Offline mmervine  
#6 Posted : 21 August 2017 14:31:13(UTC)
mmervine

United States   
Joined: 30/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,884
Location: Keene, NH
See update here:

http://www.railwaygazett...att-tunnel-collapse.html

Looks like the line will be closed for six weeks...
Märklin C-track, Marklin Digital & ECoS, multi-era French & Swiss
http://www.ete-ene.org/m...mervines-layout-gallery/
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Offline TEEWolf  
#7 Posted : 21 August 2017 19:06:15(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: GlennM Go to Quoted Post
What was the reason for the blockage?


It is the new German stupidity. From the three major track routes to the south and south-west of Germany (direction Switzerland) are two under construction repairs and/or only very limited usable (e.g. non electrified, under maintenance), if that.

The third and most important route (the so called “Rhein-Schiene” track routing, because it is the cargo route from the Netherlands all beside the Rhine to Switzerland and Italy. Finally this once was also a major part of the Rheingold TEE routing) is extended from 2 to 4 tracks and for high speed use. This is based on an agreement between Switzerland and the German part of the Swiss NEAT (Swiss abbreviation for “Neue Eisenbahn Alpen Transversale”, in English: “New Railway Apline Transversal”).

But Germany has already about an 8 years delay against Switzerland (like the new airport in Berlin). Because this route should have been opened when the new Gotthard tunnel is opened. And as we now, the new Gotthard is in use since December 2016. The German railway has not fulfilled its contractual promise. This brings the German DB AG and German government under a certain pressure. Because of that and the soil composition, they used a not very good experienced method of ground icing to dig a tunnel in 5 meter depth under this major track route “Rhein-Schiene”. And they failed. The ice grounding did not work. When the huge tunnel digger was right underneath the railway tracks they sank.

So the tracks are no longer usable. They sank only and did not collapse, because below the tracks is a huge tunnel digger (costs shall be about 18 Mio €) which should dig the tunnel underneath the tracks. But this machine cannot be removed either. So they even do not know yet, what to do getting the trains back on the tracks! The cargo traffic is shortly before a collapse, because the German DB AG has no emergency plan either.

The passenger trains stop at the station before the damaged 10 meter track length. People have to switch on a bus, get carried 20 km to the next train station behind the broken construction area and there they have to switch back on another train to continue their journey.

But you also should know, in Cologne 2009 a new subway tunnel under construction collapsed too, killed 2 people and destroyed the complete archive of the city of Cologne. This subway tunnel were built by the same icing method as now used in Rastatt to undermine the Rhein-Schiene. Germany in the 21st century.
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Offline Jabez  
#8 Posted : 22 August 2017 00:32:38(UTC)
Jabez

Belgium   
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 636
Location: Brussels
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Because of that and the soil composition, they used a not very good experienced method of ground icing to dig a tunnel in 5 meter depth under this major track route “Rhein-Schiene”.

Ground freezing for mine shaft sinking in unstable ground was a German invention and has been used very successfully worldwide for over a century.
The method has also been successfully used for horizontal excavations (tunnels) in Hong Kong, US, and elsewhere, but freezing under only 5 meter cover may have been a tad 'ambitious'.
Jabez
I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams
Offline NS1200  
#9 Posted : 24 August 2017 22:18:16(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: GlennM Go to Quoted Post
What was the reason for the blockage?


It is the new German stupidity. From the three major track routes to the south and south-west of Germany (direction Switzerland) are two under construction repairs and/or only very limited usable (e.g. non electrified, under maintenance), if that.

The third and most important route (the so called “Rhein-Schiene” track routing, because it is the cargo route from the Netherlands all beside the Rhine to Switzerland and Italy. Finally this once was also a major part of the Rheingold TEE routing) is extended from 2 to 4 tracks and for high speed use. This is based on an agreement between Switzerland and the German part of the Swiss NEAT (Swiss abbreviation for “Neue Eisenbahn Alpen Transversale”, in English: “New Railway Apline Transversal”).

But Germany has already about an 8 years delay against Switzerland (like the new airport in Berlin). Because this route should have been opened when the new Gotthard tunnel is opened. And as we now, the new Gotthard is in use since December 2016. The German railway has not fulfilled its contractual promise. This brings the German DB AG and German government under a certain pressure. Because of that and the soil composition, they used a not very good experienced method of ground icing to dig a tunnel in 5 meter depth under this major track route “Rhein-Schiene”. And they failed. The ice grounding did not work. When the huge tunnel digger was right underneath the railway tracks they sank.

So the tracks are no longer usable. They sank only and did not collapse, because below the tracks is a huge tunnel digger (costs shall be about 18 Mio €) which should dig the tunnel underneath the tracks. But this machine cannot be removed either. So they even do not know yet, what to do getting the trains back on the tracks! The cargo traffic is shortly before a collapse, because the German DB AG has no emergency plan either.

The passenger trains stop at the station before the damaged 10 meter track length. People have to switch on a bus, get carried 20 km to the next train station behind the broken construction area and there they have to switch back on another train to continue their journey.

But you also should know, in Cologne 2009 a new subway tunnel under construction collapsed too, killed 2 people and destroyed the complete archive of the city of Cologne. This subway tunnel were built by the same icing method as now used in Rastatt to undermine the Rhein-Schiene. Germany in the 21st century.


Okay,so it failed,fact noted.
Dutch solution would be to stop argueing and start working!
Dig out the damaged section and remove the tunnel drilling machine,needcase using military recoverytanks.
Fill up the vault and restore the track.
Think about the lower level at a later stage.
Why should this take weeks and weeks?
Large part of West Holland was flooded in February 1953,repair of essential dykes was started from day 1,thence water was pumped out to reclaim the land again.
So,stop talking and start digging!

Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline DaleSchultz  
#10 Posted : 24 August 2017 23:27:47(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
I also don't get why it should take 6 weeks to get traffic flowing again.

Week 1: Cut the tracks and remove them. Create concrete and steel 'bridges' nearby.
Week 2: Remove soil and ballast to depth of new temporary 'bridges'
Week 3: Place bridges in place and connect rails again.

The collapse is very short, so the supporting 'bridges' do not need to be very long.

Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
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Offline DB Fan  
#11 Posted : 25 August 2017 00:42:00(UTC)
DB Fan

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2016(UTC)
Posts: 265
Location: Colorado
I think you guys are forgetting that German bureaucracy is just as efficient as German workmanship and qualityBigGrin and can hold up a project for weeksCrying . And as far as I can tell from reports I'm watching, it has gotten worse since I moved to the states. I do hope that they will get repaired soon.

Robert
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Offline TEEWolf  
#12 Posted : 25 August 2017 02:09:56(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
I also don't get why it should take 6 weeks to get traffic flowing again.

Week 1: Cut the tracks and remove them. Create concrete and steel 'bridges' nearby.
Week 2: Remove soil and ballast to depth of new temporary 'bridges'
Week 3: Place bridges in place and connect rails again.

The collapse is very short, so the supporting 'bridges' do not need to be very long.


Very pragmatical. The plan as reported now is to fill up the complete tunnel including the digging machine with concrete. Yes, they give up the digging machine with an price of 18 Mio € and fill all up with concrete. Mocker say they acting like the Mafia.Laugh



please open the PDF file. On page 2 you see a map with an overview of the location.



At the number 8 is the location of the desaster: the crossing of the exisiting Rheintalbahn and the new tunnel tracks. Pages down you see the digging machine and their size compared to people. This machine you cannot just remove and restart. This needs time. So they decided to losse the machine for a quicker reopening. At the moment the old Rheintalbahn is closed and should be reopend not before October 7th.


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Offline Minok  
#13 Posted : 25 August 2017 21:35:45(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,311
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
The problem is that a long tunnel for new high speed rail is being built under the region using a tunnel boring machine (TBM) that uses the technique to install concrete rings to stabilize the tunnel as it drills along. We just completed such a tunnel under the city of Seattle to route a major highway under downtown as the old elevated highway is past end of life.

The complication is the stabilizing solution (technique of freezing the ground to stabilize it for the short time between when the TBM drills out the space until the concrete rings can be put in place) failed due to the unexpected nature and loads on the ground above that section. Seems like an engineering study wasn't done right by the DB/contractor beforehand.

Give there is a very large TBM in the hole, one cannot just go in and support from within the hole, so the solution is to now stabilize with concrete from outside.. and that takes some time.

The odd thing is they were so confident in there not being an issue that they didn't plan for what to do if there was an issue... the ability to not route electric rail service around the problem is odd.... or they should have done a better soil evaluation at the crossing point, which they didn't do I expect.

I'm pretty sure the location of the issue is here on google maps: https://goo.gl/maps/U95edQ9fC4u

Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
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Offline Minok  
#14 Posted : 25 August 2017 22:46:20(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,311
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post

Very pragmatical. The plan as reported now is to fill up the complete tunnel including the digging machine with concrete. Yes, they give up the digging machine with an price of 18 Mio € and fill all up with concrete. Mocker say they acting like the Mafia.Laugh




So as they fill the section under the existing lines with concrete, and put in place the concrete plate and then rebuild the tracks and cantenary above to bring the existing 150 year running line back into service...

Capture.PNG


... have they published a plan on how they will continue with the new tunnel ? I'm assuming a new tunnel boring machine has to be brought in and a new tunnel dug under that filled up tunnel - or to the side parallel and connect to the existing tunnel entry/exit points in Rastatt (the goal was to route all that through traffic especially the freight underground to make it quieter for Rastatt )
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
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https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline NS1200  
#15 Posted : 02 October 2017 11:26:36(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Track is now operational again.
Traffic covers 200 freighttrains per day.
Dutch companies alone estimate damage at 10 million Euro per day during the blockage.
Note the photo in the clipping is an at random picture from the archives,nothing to do with the track in question.

https://www.nu.nl/econom...e-route-zwitserland.html
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline Minok  
#16 Posted : 02 October 2017 20:56:51(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,311
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Good to know.

Looking into it and at this photo from the air in mid August, it looks like some model railroad layouts while under construction. BigGrin
Capture.PNG
- ARD http://www.tagesschau.de...ft/rheintalbahn-111.html

UserPostedImage

Repair work on the tracks:
Capture.PNG
- SWR Aktuel


Trying to figure out how they will proceed to complete the tunnel work they were doing when the whole mess started.

The concrete fill used to fill and bury the tunnel boring machine (TBM) in the tunnel was a light concrete. The top over the collapse area was covered with very strong and thick steel and concrete plates, effectively a bridge deck, so I'm guessing at some point they will then dig out the filled tunnel again, extract the remains of the destroyed TBM and complete the original tunnel route by some other means.

The TBM process, similar to how a tunnel was built under Seattle just in the past few years:

Edited by user 10 February 2018 01:40:50(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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