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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#1 Posted : 18 July 2017 09:04:34(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Hello,
I tried to create a field magnet with the field coil of an existing DCM motor.

After I removed the coil wire, I marked the place for the cut in the metal clamp:

UserPostedImage

Then, fixed in the machinist vise, I used a cutting disk from a Dremel to make the two cuts:

UserPostedImage

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Ready:

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UserPostedImage

With a coping saw, I cutted the metal:

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OK, not perfect:

UserPostedImage

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Here, my second trial (left side), even better:

UserPostedImage

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Ready to be mounted into a test machine!

Regards,
Moritz
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by Moritz-BR365
Offline river6109  
#2 Posted : 18 July 2017 09:32:21(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,164
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Moritz, would it not change the whole electric field ? a.) not cutting through all the way, b.) the magnet being thinner than the conversion kit magnet but if it works you'll save a lot of money but on the other hand you wouldn't be able to use a five pole motor and have to use the old brush plate.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by river6109
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#3 Posted : 18 July 2017 09:37:13(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Hello John,
a) Yes, to cut not through all the way reduces the magnetic field, but it is better for stability and correct ficture and alignment.

b) Yes of course, it is a cheap solution without the benefit of a 5-pole anchor. But for those who prefered the Esu permanent magnet, this could be a cheap solution. The magnet costs only ~1€!

Regards,
Moritz
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Moritz-BR365
Offline sudibarba  
#4 Posted : 20 July 2017 01:05:48(UTC)
sudibarba

United States   
Joined: 28/07/2006(UTC)
Posts: 873
Location: Augusta, GA USA
They only cost $12 - why bother?
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Offline river6109  
#5 Posted : 20 July 2017 03:48:46(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,164
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: sudibarba Go to Quoted Post
They only cost $12 - why bother?


sometimes we like to proof to ourselves there are other ways of making things without purchasing parts but you've got a point it would take sometime to produce such a perm. magnet.

there are other factors which should be included as well:

postage and or cutting blade., magnet. all depends which part of the world you live in.

John



https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#6 Posted : 20 July 2017 09:40:24(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: sudibarba Go to Quoted Post
They only cost $12 - why bother?


My experience with the build quality of the Esu permanent magnets is not very good. The small plastic mounting pins break sometimes, the same for the plastic frame.

Therefore, I replaced most motors with the HLA 5-pole motor.

But, I found it could be an interesting and cheap alternative to create the permanent magnet by myselfe. At least to make a comparison in drive performance.

And as usual, I made it to have fun BigGrin
Offline Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS  
#7 Posted : 20 July 2017 09:47:45(UTC)
Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS

Sweden   
Joined: 22/06/2011(UTC)
Posts: 544
Hi Moritz,

This is really interesting. Great work! Do you beforehand have an idea of what the outcome will be? What result are you expecting?
SBB Era IV - VI
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#8 Posted : 20 July 2017 10:01:00(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS Go to Quoted Post
Hi Moritz,

This is really interesting. Great work! Do you beforehand have an idea of what the outcome will be? What result are you expecting?


Hi Oliver,
I made a first drive test and this was so far good, similar power consumption as with the 5-pole HLA motor. But I did not have the time to change the decoder settings. Therefore, the low speed drive performance was bad. I assume, that the reverse EMK was to low for the current decoder settings because of the lower magnet field force.

I will perform some more tests with optimized decoder settings.

Regards,
Moritz
Offline olene  
#9 Posted : 18 July 2020 00:18:30(UTC)
olene

Denmark   
Joined: 18/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 2
Location: Sjælland, Haslev
Hi Moritz.
Very interesting, I am trying the same my self. What are the size og the neodym magnet
you are using? Do you have new experincies at this matter.

Best regards
Ole from Denmark
Offline dominator  
#10 Posted : 18 July 2020 00:31:08(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 875
Location: Kerikeri
Some years ago [ maybe 5 years ] there was a thread on here which showed this operation, but using a full sized magnet mounted between the 2 separate parts of the fully cut field. That looked like a great way to do it.

Dereck
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
Offline JohnjeanB  
#11 Posted : 18 July 2020 16:06:17(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,056
Location: Paris, France
Hi Moritz

I think your idea is fantastic but short of 2 things:
- cut the metal all the way to insert your magnet. This avoids sending all the field lines directly around the magnet and not to the rotor blades. The little one mm you left does not provide any rigidity / strength IMO.
- once the magnet in place, all being in the vice, make sure all is glued properly using epoxy or instant glue, using also non-magnetic material on each side to provide rigidity (brass, hard plastic)
Cheers
Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
Offline JohnjeanB  
#12 Posted : 18 July 2020 16:12:39(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,056
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: olene Go to Quoted Post
Hi Moritz.
Very interesting, I am trying the same my self. What are the size og the neodym magnet
you are using? Do you have new experincies at this matter.

Best regards
Ole from Denmark

Hi Ole
You could use Faller Car System magnets (163221) they are 2 to 3 mm thick and tiny
Cheers
Jean

My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
Offline jvuye  
#13 Posted : 18 July 2020 18:31:55(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,848
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Moritz

I think your idea is fantastic but short of 2 things:
- cut the metal all the way to insert your magnet. This avoids sending all the field lines directly around the magnet and not to the rotor blades. The little one mm you left does not provide any rigidity / strength IMO.
- once the magnet in place, all being in the vice, make sure all is glued properly using epoxy or instant glue, using also non-magnetic material on each side to provide rigidity (brass, hard plastic)
Cheers
Jean


I would have said exactly the same thing.
Before you cut into the magnet , create youreself a little jig that allows the reassembly of the parts
As JohnJeanB says , create the connecting plates by using non ferrous material (brass or aluminum, which is easy to machine)

But above all : Very good idea! And one that I'll keep in mind when I'll come accross some peculiar motors for which no ESU/Marklin /HAG or whatever permanent magnet replacement is available., besides I have so many wirewound magnets in stock (after converting my locos and those of my friends and customers....) Laugh

Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by jvuye
Offline olene  
#14 Posted : 20 July 2020 01:02:24(UTC)
olene

Denmark   
Joined: 18/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 2
Location: Sjælland, Haslev
Hi Jean.

Thank you for your replies. Do you have any
Success in creating these perma magnets yourself?
In case is it a positive experiense and how are the
Trains/loks behaving, do they like it. 😀
Regards Ole
Offline JohnjeanB  
#15 Posted : 20 July 2020 11:38:48(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,056
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: olene Go to Quoted Post
Hi Jean.

Thank you for your replies. Do you have any
Success in creating these perma magnets yourself?
In case is it a positive experiense and how are the
Trains/loks behaving, do they like it. 😀
Regards Ole

Hi Ole
No I have not made this yet. It is your idea. But in the past I have installed Märklin field magnet to realize they are attached by flimsy plastic flanges. I also use a lot of those Faller magnets for my Faller Car System and plenty other things They are very tiny and strong.
Cheers
Jean

My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
Offline rugauger  
#16 Posted : 24 July 2020 14:50:12(UTC)
rugauger

United Kingdom   
Joined: 19/12/2003(UTC)
Posts: 1,195
Location: Swindon, Wiltshire
I did this once on a small flat commutator motor. I cut all the way through, though.
Running characteristics are OK (I use an ESU Lokpilot) but not spectacular. But as has been said - it's a cheap motor conversion.
Richard
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