Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline zev kahn  
#1 Posted : 30 April 2017 06:10:05(UTC)
zev kahn

United States   
Joined: 04/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 13
Location: Dublin California
I have a BR 003, DB 37958 ERA III steam engine that I am running on my C-track layout and controlled by a Mobile Station 2, a 60116 digital connector box, and 66361 switched mode power pack. I have been unable to get the smoke unit to consistently work. I can get it to work on my friends layout who uses an Intellibox II but not mine. I have been unable to find a solution and am hoping one of the members out there could give me an idea.
Thanks for any help.

Zev
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 30 April 2017 08:04:34(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Zev,

Make sure red and brown are not swapped in the track connection: red goes to B and brown goes to 0.

Maybe you get more smoke when you run a loco using the MM protocol in parallel.

The MS2 system has a rather low track voltage and in the worst case only a new power supply will help to increase the smoke.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline jvuye  
#3 Posted : 01 May 2017 21:14:47(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: zev kahn Go to Quoted Post
I have a BR 003, DB 37958 ERA III steam engine that I am running on my C-track layout and controlled by a Mobile Station 2, a 60116 digital connector box, and 66361 switched mode power pack. I have been unable to get the smoke unit to consistently work. I can get it to work on my friends layout who uses an Intellibox II but not mine. I have been unable to find a solution and am hoping one of the members out there could give me an idea.
Thanks for any help.

Zev

Hi Zev!
Why would you want your lok to take on smoking?
It's not healthy!
In any case and jokes aside, I think the culprit is the power pack that delivers too low a voltage.
Cheers from SW France
Jacques
ETE Bay Area chapter member at large

Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
Offline Minok  
#4 Posted : 01 May 2017 21:17:21(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
I've had no issues with a smoke generator working on a MS2 layout (trackbox powered). Voltage and transmission of power to the locomotive are key. Dirty tracks?
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline zev kahn  
#5 Posted : 14 May 2017 16:31:53(UTC)
zev kahn

United States   
Joined: 04/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 13
Location: Dublin California
I have done some additional snooping and am wondering if indeed my problem has to do with not enough power. My mobile station came with a 36 VA power pack. I notice that Marklin uses a 60 VA power pack in the central station.

I can't find out if I can use the 60 VA in my mobile station without blowing it up.

Does anyone have knowledge on this aspect?

Thanks
Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 14 May 2017 17:09:49(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Using more than 2 A with the MS2 won't have any positive effect, so 18 V/2 A/36 VA fit perfectly.
Using more than 18 V DC might increase the smoke generation as it increases the track voltage. IMO you shouldn't go above 22 V DC.
Using 16 V AC is another option to increase the track voltage.

The 60 VA power supply has 19 V DC and an incompatible plug. Adjustable universal power supplies usually come with a suitable plug and are much cheaper than Märklin's power supplies. You should get one with at least 2 A.

Long story short: the 60 VA power supply may lead to more smoke as the output voltage is 19 V DC versus 18 V DC, but the higher wattage does not really help.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Minok  
#7 Posted : 14 May 2017 19:03:30(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: zev kahn Go to Quoted Post
I have done some additional snooping and am wondering if indeed my problem has to do with not enough power. My mobile station came with a 36 VA power pack. I notice that Marklin uses a 60 VA power pack in the central station.

I can't find out if I can use the 60 VA in my mobile station without blowing it up.

Does anyone have knowledge on this aspect?

Thanks


If just that loco on the track by itself doesn't generate smoke then it's is not the power or voltage that's an issue unless the power supply or track is broken , which is unlikely.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 15 May 2017 08:10:56(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
If just that loco on the track by itself doesn't generate smoke then it's is not the power or voltage that's an issue [...]
It can be the voltage. The track voltage of the MS2 system with power supply is on the lower side - and the loco works with an Intellibox.
The issue is not wattage, but it could be voltage.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Goofy  
#9 Posted : 15 May 2017 18:19:58(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Seuthe smoke generator can use between 10-16 volt ac or dc power.
It´s hard to believe that MS2 should have too small voltage.
It´s not default in functions on the MS2?
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Goofy
Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 15 May 2017 20:24:51(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Seuthe smoke generator can use between 10-16 volt ac or dc power.
It´s hard to believe that MS2 should have too small voltage.
Easy to believe when you know how it is wired.
When the smoke generator is controlled by the decoder, only about 75% of the voltage from the decoder arrive at the smoke unit.
Using the MS2 with 18 V DC easily leads to about 10 V effective voltage at the controllable smoke generator.
More smoke with CS2, Intellibox, or CU 6021.


Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Goofy  
#11 Posted : 15 May 2017 21:46:07(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Seuthe smoke generator can use between 10-16 volt ac or dc power.
It´s hard to believe that MS2 should have too small voltage.
Easy to believe when you know how it is wired.
When the smoke generator is controlled by the decoder, only about 75% of the voltage from the decoder arrive at the smoke unit.
Using the MS2 with 18 V DC easily leads to about 10 V effective voltage at the controllable smoke generator.
More smoke with CS2, Intellibox, or CU 6021.




It´s not really truth!
I did used MS2 with steam locomotive and smoke generator.
It has full power smoke like Lenz digital plus.
No difference!

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline H0  
#12 Posted : 15 May 2017 22:19:49(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
It´s not really truth!
I did used MS2 with steam locomotive and smoke generator.
It has full power smoke like Lenz digital plus.
No difference!
I hope Zev finds this post useful.

No difference. ThumpUp

Alternative fact: increase the track voltage by 40% and the power consumed by the smoke generator will be double.
40% more - that is CU 6021 versus MS2.
Good to know it makes no difference with respect to smoke ... Wink
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline river6109  
#13 Posted : 16 May 2017 03:11:32(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,631
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
did you buy the loco new or second hand ? it may be the contacts, you don't have another steam loco to find out or compare it ?

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Goofy  
#14 Posted : 16 May 2017 09:23:36(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
It´s not really truth!
I did used MS2 with steam locomotive and smoke generator.
It has full power smoke like Lenz digital plus.
No difference!


Alternative fact: increase the track voltage by 40% and the power consumed by the smoke generator will be double.
40% more - that is CU 6021 versus MS2.


I did used Märklin,Trix,Brawa steam locomotives with smoke generator.
Tested with MS2 and Lenz digital plus.
It show same power smoke fluid with all locomotives.
In fact does decoder present 14-16 voltage out to the smoke generator.
I´m pretty sure TS MS2 doesn´t work as it should by use smoke digital function perhaps?
If his locomotive works normal on the track,then the voltage is correct.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 16 May 2017 10:09:35(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
In fact does decoder present 14-16 voltage out to the smoke generator.
In fact does the decoder provide 14 to 16 V to the smoke generator. Or more. Or less.
Some laws of physics still apply to our post-factual age. Cool

A smoke generator that works well with MS2 and locos from Brawa or Roco may not work well with a Märklin loco using the same MS2.
There are different ways to connect the smoke generator inside the loco.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Goofy  
#16 Posted : 17 May 2017 09:27:30(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
In fact does decoder present 14-16 voltage out to the smoke generator.
In fact does the decoder provide 14 to 16 V to the smoke generator. Or more. Or less.
Some laws of physics still apply to our post-factual age. Cool

A smoke generator that works well with MS2 and locos from Brawa or Roco may not work well with a Märklin loco using the same MS2.
There are different ways to connect the smoke generator inside the loco.


They have same voltage.
There is not different because it´s same smoke generator use by of Seuthe.
No.10
No.20
TS did not verified if locomotive do have normal voltage from the track to the decoder (if locomotive react normal drive).
I suggest TS try with another MS2 to test by push on the smoke digital function.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline H0  
#17 Posted : 17 May 2017 10:01:15(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
They have same voltage.
There is not different because it´s same smoke generator use by of Seuthe.
Seuthe tell the opposite: "Der Decoder-Funktionsausgang liefert, je nach Anschluss des Dampfgenerators, eine teilweise stark von der Gleisspannung abweichende Versorgungsspannung!"
Source: http://seuthe-dampf.de/service/
Short translation: the voltage arriving at the smoke generator can vary a lot, depending on how it is wired.

This thread is about Märklin. Good to know that Seuthe smoke generators work with Lenz controllers and non-Märklin locos.
Roco recommend Seuthe No. 11 for Roco locos while Märklin recommend Seuthe No. 10 for Märklin locos. Because the effective voltage is not the same due to different connections inside the loco.

Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
I suggest TS try with another MS2 to test by push on the smoke digital function.
TS gets some smoke, but would like more smoke. Should he try another MS2? Or another track box? Or another power supply? Maybe replace all three?


Originally Posted by: zev kahn Go to Quoted Post
I have been unable to find a solution and am hoping one of the members out there could give me an idea.
The info screens of the MS2 can show you voltage and amp ratings for the track box.
If you share your readings others can compare them with their readings to see if there is something unusual about your system.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Goofy  
#18 Posted : 18 May 2017 18:57:57(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: zev kahn Go to Quoted Post
I have been unable to find a solution and am hoping one of the members out there could give me an idea.
The info screens of the MS2 can show you voltage and amp ratings for the track box.
If you share your readings others can compare them with their readings to see if there is something unusual about your system.


TS locomotives do have normal voltage.
If not he would have reported trouble by drive them too.
TS did tested his friends Intellibox and it works good.
Default with MS2?
Not if the voltage shows normal (standard).

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Minok  
#19 Posted : 18 May 2017 19:59:41(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
If just that loco on the track by itself doesn't generate smoke then it's is not the power or voltage that's an issue [...]
It can be the voltage. The track voltage of the MS2 system with power supply is on the lower side - and the loco works with an Intellibox.
The issue is not wattage, but it could be voltage.


True. I wasn't clear and thats my fault. If the loco is driving normally and the track is getting the proper voltage from the controller it is likely an issue in how the power is delivered to the smoke generator.

One can increase the voltage to get rid of the symptom but that wouldn't solve the underlying problem itself.

I'm basing this off of my one case - I have one engine that I put a smoke generator into: a 37899 with the factory specified smoke generator 7226 installed by me. It runs fine and smokes just fine. Granted its one case, but I conclude from this example that the voltage put to the track by the MS2 and trackbox is sufficient to drive the smoke generator using its internal smoke-generator function output. So there isn't a wide ranged mis-specification of voltages and smoke generators involved.

If the proper combination of smoke generator and decoder are paired up I'm wondering if there isn't a drop (voltage) some where from the decoder output to the smoke generator, a defective smoke generator, not quite installed right (since angle of the contact pin inside can be critical), some contact dirty, etc. One can overpower that symptom to get the thing smoking properly but that doesn't solve the underlying problem.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline rugauger  
#20 Posted : 19 May 2017 16:39:31(UTC)
rugauger

United Kingdom   
Joined: 19/12/2003(UTC)
Posts: 1,205
Location: Swindon, Wiltshire
Off the beaten track: have you made sure that the smoke function for the loco on the MS2 is set to "permanent"? I'm not sure it applies here, but when you configure the loco functions on the MS2, some functions give you a choice between "permanent" or "momentary" (and the length of the "moment" is configurable). The Telex function is one of them.

I'd like to think that if you've chosen the correct symbol (i.e. the "smokey" icon) then it should be permanent by default (what else makes sense for smoke), but I haven't configured a "smoker" on my MS2 yet, so I don't know.

Also, to make sure that the function key that you have assigned on the MS2 corresponds to the actual function output that the smoke generator is connect to.
Richard
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by rugauger
Users browsing this topic
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.816 seconds.