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Offline siroljuk  
#1 Posted : 19 February 2017 09:33:43(UTC)
siroljuk

Finland   
Joined: 29/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 377
Hello everyone.

This newsletter is very helpful for those who have new CS3 or CS3 Plus.



It really is worth of readingThumpUp ThumpUp


Jukka

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Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 19 February 2017 09:41:42(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Oh no, Märklin USA use the term "MS 3" for the 60657 while Märklin Germany call it "MS 2".

I don't have a CS3 and I think it is not worth reading.
They tell you that the 60760 has an undocumented F3 output. They don't tell you it also has an undocumented F1 output.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline MaerklinLife  
#3 Posted : 19 February 2017 10:52:18(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
I think they do a good job, but I some times wonder about some of the solutions. Personally, I would not have chosen the 60760 kit for converting an older loco, I would have chosen the newest available decoder, at presenet the mld3. Alone because it can be updated and has better motor control. This is a Märklin newsletter, so of course they cannot choose a LokPilot. That would be an option too, if you are considering the upgrade.

One thing puzzles me though:
They mention that the CS3 and CS3Plus can ONLY slave using Ethernet. I was not aware of that, I was under the impression that the CS3 and CS3Plus used the CAN modules for the master/slave communication just as the CS2. Especially because the manual mentions none of that, and all the drawings I have seen implies that the CAN bus is used for this. Also when it comes to the CS3 and CS3Plus. From reading the manual I get absolutely no hint that Ethernet is the only option for master/slave with the CS3. I have wondered what the IP-address section in the Master/Slave option dialog was for, but I assumed it was something other than _the_ way.

I find this Ethernet master/slave behaviour kind of unnecessarily complicated and at the same time kind of interesting. Because that would imply that I could create a wireless master/slave connection between the two CS's with the use of a nano router or something similar.

Can someone confirm or debunk if Ethernet is really the only way to do Master/slave with the CS3 and CS3 Plus?
Offline steventrain  
#4 Posted : 19 February 2017 10:52:27(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,601
Location: United Kingdom
On page 11 of newsletter.

'If we were going to test some relative unknowns (to us anyway), we were going to start off slow and with older equipment. WARNING* - Be sure you follow the proper track isolation
procedures that you would with any other Marklin booster device (e.g. 60175, 60174, 6017, 60150).'

What is 60150? Nothing found, It may be a old booster 6015?
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline MaerklinLife  
#5 Posted : 19 February 2017 11:14:06(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by: steventrain Go to Quoted Post
What is 60150? Nothing found, It may be a old booster 6015?

I am sure it is the 6015. It is probably just a typo.
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#6 Posted : 19 February 2017 11:16:53(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
Personally, I would not have chosen the 60760 kit for converting an older loco, I would have chosen the newest available decoder, at presenet the mld3.


What's wrong with the 60760? It was provided exactly for this type of conversion, and is exactly what I would use in that situation. No point in paying extra for extra functions provided by the mld3 if you don't use them.
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Offline MaerklinLife  
#7 Posted : 19 February 2017 11:26:30(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
What's wrong with the 60760? It was provided exactly for this type of conversion, and is exactly what I would use in that situation. No point in paying extra for extra functions provided by the mld3 if you don't use them.

It has nothing to do with the amount of functions. The 60760 is cheap, but as far as I know it is an older decoder with the limitations that might give you with regards to motor control. The mld3 has better options for fine tuning the motor and it can be updated. It also supports mfx and DCC. Those are the features that would make me choose that over the 60760 kit. I think it is a better choice albeit being more expensive.

If the user has no interest in these features, by all means, go for the older decoder. I just do not think it should be the go to choice for everybody when converting locos. Some might be interested in paying 30 euro more and get a more modern solution.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#8 Posted : 20 February 2017 11:31:31(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
The 60760 is cheap, but as far as I know it is an older decoder with the limitations that might give you with regards to motor control. The mld3 has better options for fine tuning the motor and it can be updated. It also supports mfx and DCC. Those are the features that would make me choose that over the 60760 kit. I think it is a better choice albeit being more expensive.


Maybe, but the 60760 kit includes DCM motor parts as well as a decoder at the same price that a motor conversion kit would cost. The decoder is intended for use with DCM equipped locos, but I have used the 60760 decoder with a SFCM equipped loco, and the owner loves it! The 60670 only has 14 speed steps but I find more than that annoying, and may not have the extensive settings other decoders might have, but despite the criticism from some quarters I have no issue with them. I know Ray likes them as well. Each to their own I guess.

The 60760 must be popular, because Marklin only originally intended to issue them for a year, but they have been in the program for 7 or 8 years.
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Offline MaerklinLife  
#9 Posted : 20 February 2017 13:05:44(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
The 60670 only has 14 speed steps but I find more than that annoying, and may not have the extensive settings other decoders might have, but despite the criticism from some quarters I have no issue with them. I know Ray likes them as well. Each to their own I guess.

I am sure there is no problems with them. I am sure they work fine. I just want more fine tuning options, mfx and so on. I was not aware that it does not have more than 14 speed steps. I always go 128 speedsteps. I would never install such an old decoder in a locomotive today. But as you say: Each to their own. Smile
Offline clapcott  
#10 Posted : 20 February 2017 20:08:58(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Oh no, Märklin USA use the term "MS 3" for the 60657 while Märklin Germany call it "MS 2".
Oh dear in deed (even more so because they do not use the product numbers 60653 or 60657)
and they do not show the latest firmware version for the 60653/60657 as 2.7
nor do they include the 60652/1 on the compatibility matrix for the 60216/60226

Quote:

I don't have a CS3 and I think it is not worth reading.
I read it ..
to confirm , IMHO, that it was not worth reading (for me - and I would not be referencing it to others)

Quote:

They tell you that the 60760 has an undocumented F3 output.
They don't tell you it also has an undocumented F1 output.
History is strewn with situations where a component has more capability than the product they inhabit.

I see the articles references to be a display of intense naivety. A products capability is judged (marketed) on the lowest common denominator, OR noted with limitations - neither have been addressed in this article to provide the needed perspective to make the correct choice.

The 60760 has the following documented power ratings
Maximum load at the motor output 800 milliamps
Maximum load at the function output 150 milliamps
Maximum total, short term load 1100 milliamps
A maximum of 2 no. 610 080 light bulbs or 1 no. 610 040 light bulb per function output


While undocumented F3 , or F1, are not represented in the table, their power must still be provided in the envelope of the 1100 milliamps.
There is absolutely no way that this decode should be used "quote" ... for a smoke generator ... "unquote" without knowing that you cannot concurrently run the motor or turn on the lamps at the same time.

IMHO . do not use this for a loco with a smoke unit OR telex - full stop (period)


BTW. why is the wire for the F3 function shown with a Brown/Green wire - poor disciplines!
Peter
Offline ktsolias  
#11 Posted : 20 February 2017 20:44:29(UTC)
ktsolias

Greece   
Joined: 01/05/2016(UTC)
Posts: 609
Location: Athens
The 60760 is a lovely set
All the small locos, switchers etc does not need anything else.
Also it is a great value for money.
I never order the 60941 motor because with 2-3 more Euro I have the decoder as well.
I can use the decoder for lighting etc.

The F3 is amplified well documented and the power is the same as the F3 of other decoders (about 150mA enough for an 70 mA smoke generator) in the general 1.1 A power of the decoder
The F1 is TTL level (+5V) without amplification. The power that you can take from this depends of the power of the transistor that you will use for the amplifier. So actually there is no any limitation.
Better to use Darlington transistors.

On the other hand this decoder works great with a small power supply circuit. A 470μF electrolytic capacitor is enough. Also better to use Schottky diode in the circuit. (If there is enough space in the loco, a bigger capacitor is better..)

In these days I modified all my locos putting a power supply circuit. Solves a lot of problems with imperfections of the track.

Of course a mLD/3 decoder is better for any point of view.... But the cost of the conversion is almost double!!!

So as everything in this life is again what you pay is what you got....

Best Regards
Costas

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Offline Minok  
#12 Posted : 20 February 2017 21:44:10(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Oh no, Märklin USA use the term "MS 3" for the 60657 while Märklin Germany call it "MS 2".


You can search the Maerklin.de website for "MS3" and get a result that maps to https://www.maerklin.de/...e/details/article/60657/
Not that this is definitive. In the pages themselves they are all just referred to as "Mobile Station"

Capture.PNG

Isn't Märklin product naming just so awesome? Its almost as fun as Microsoft product naming.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline Minok  
#13 Posted : 20 February 2017 21:56:11(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
When doing the motor and decoder upgrade and going through the trouble of putting in new lamps, why not install LED lights in place of filament incandescent lamps?
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline H0  
#14 Posted : 20 February 2017 22:06:40(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: ktsolias Go to Quoted Post
I never order the 60941 motor because with 2-3 more Euro I have the decoder as well.
Depends on where you buy.
RRP is €30 versus €40.

I can order 10x 60941 for €200 and 10x 60760 for €280 (12x for €313.56).
About €6 for the decoder. An ESU LokPilot costs much more.

IMHO some locos deserve a better decoder than the 60760. For some locos the 60760 is appropriate.
But you get what you pay for - and you don't pay much.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 20 February 2017 22:13:30(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
You can search the Maerklin.de website for "MS3" and get a result that maps to https://www.maerklin.de/...e/details/article/60657/
Good find. Not all search functions yield the same result.

$$$no_MS3.png

Confusing situation.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Minok  
#16 Posted : 20 February 2017 22:50:33(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
You can search the Maerklin.de website for "MS3" and get a result that maps to https://www.maerklin.de/...e/details/article/60657/
Good find. Not all search functions yield the same result.

$$$no_MS3.png

Confusing situation.


Indeed. My searches typically start from : http://www.maerklin.de/
where I do a general search by typing in the info in the search field. Thats less specific than the product database search your page/form does I suspect, so it matches more general terminology, I'm guessing.


Capture.PNG
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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