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Offline johnpatrickwack  
#1 Posted : 13 February 2017 01:37:22(UTC)
johnpatrickwack

United States   
Joined: 13/12/2016(UTC)
Posts: 147
Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA
Hi all,

First, a general 'thank you' to the forum membership, I have learned so much from reading various postings. I would like to ask your advice on the following:

I am creating a small, very modest layout that will stay in the basement for most of the time but also come upstairs during Christmas. My wife is a piano teacher with many very young students, who are captivated by the train set in past years and so I want something simple that they can use but at the same time I would like to run 2 locos independently. I've had a Marklin trainset since 1960 and still have the old TT800 loco and cars and track, but this layout will be digital, using an MS2, and will use C track in areas where there are lots of switches. I made a layout entirely of M track very similar to this, but had so many problems with derailments that I decided to convert to C track where it made sense.

So, the dimensions are roughly 4 x 7 feet, which is about as big as I can get for right now. In the picture, the M track is mostly white at 0 elevation. The light blue M track are the elevations, with a number of older M bridges, and the light orange M track is at 101.4mm elevation, all bridges. I'm going to be using my older M track catenary and adapting it to M track where necessary (thanks to some useful postings I read). I know that Marklin recommends 104mm as the height necessary, but I'll be careful with catenary placement. The light green circle is where the artificial Christmas tree would go.

With my all-M-track-experiment, the digital locos ran well but I had many derailments with longer cars on various switches. My experiments with C track have been wonderful - no derailments. I would like to ask your advice, though, on whether I'm doing something that is problematic or that will eventually cause some problems. Do you see issues or have concerns about such a layout?

I very much enjoy watching these young kids, girls included, who mostly have never even seen a model RR layout, use the old Marklin layout. It's a great thing to get them away from their iPhones and iPads and watch them get very involved in using the trainset.

Cheers, JohnJohn2-C.jpg
---
John P. Wack
Silver Spring, MD
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Offline johnpatrickwack  
#2 Posted : 13 February 2017 01:40:37(UTC)
johnpatrickwack

United States   
Joined: 13/12/2016(UTC)
Posts: 147
Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA
Ooops - made a mistake in my post. The C track is mostly white at 0 elevation - not the M. The M track is being used for elevations and bridges, mainly because I've already bought the expensive ramps and bridges and don't see a need to convert to C track for those items.

Again, thank you for any replies.

Cheers, John
---
John P. Wack
Silver Spring, MD
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Offline analogmike  
#3 Posted : 13 February 2017 02:45:31(UTC)
analogmike

United States   
Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 737
Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
Hello John,
I think it's a great layout.
The way you've got the switches laid out, A train can get from the outside to the inside and turn around at each end.
You can also run continuous with two trains in opposite directions or flip em' anyway you want.

BRAVO!

Looking forward to pictures.

Mikey
I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning .
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Offline PeFu  
#4 Posted : 13 February 2017 06:40:17(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,208
This is nice! A minor suggestion could be to change the direction of the below turnouts, to make it possible to return from the outer loop to the inner loop, again? Cool

IMG_1010.PNG
Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V10
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Offline mike c  
#5 Posted : 13 February 2017 08:28:01(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
What you may wish to consider is that if you remove the straight sections between the curved quarters on your outer M track (green), you can possibly replace the curved tracks with a larger radii (C), which would move you from R1 to R2, R2 to R3, etc as the case may be. This would enable you to run longer trains and would result in less overhang in curves and allow you to use 30cm coaches (exact scale) on that track.

You should be able to recalculate the configuration using your software to come up with a new schematic for such an option.

My other recommendation would be to modify the inner loop to permit trains to exit the inner loop in both directions. Right now, both of your switch combinations are in the same direction.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline jvuye  
#6 Posted : 13 February 2017 10:55:36(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post

...
My other recommendation would be to modify the inner loop to permit trains to exit the inner loop in both directions. Right now, both of your switch combinations are in the same direction.

Regards

Mike C


I can see what you say Mike.
But I believe this is OK, because there are two reverse loops in this layout (one accross the center, the other is that bridge+ramp section) so any train can run the whole length back and forth.
I figure that with strategically placed signals, the kids could manage to have some fun running 2 to 3 short/medium sized trains simultaneously, and that's the purpose of this layout I guess Wink
Cheers
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#7 Posted : 13 February 2017 14:55:03(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: PeFu Go to Quoted Post
This is nice! A minor suggestion could be to change the direction of the below turnouts, to make it possible to return from the outer loop to the inner loop, again? Cool

IMG_1010.PNG


Yes i agree this needs to be done. This pair of points needs to be the mirror image of the ones at the other end of the straight.

I hadn't picked this up initially, amazing how the mind makes you think it is all correct as you sweep your eyes over it, following the route around.

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Offline Johnvr  
#8 Posted : 13 February 2017 15:53:46(UTC)
Johnvr

South Africa   
Joined: 03/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,269
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
John,

A great little layout. Here are my three suggestions for you :

1) Modify the switch at the top right corner to be a Left Hand Point instead of a Right Hand Point. This would avoid the left-right-left S-curve which gives trouble to some locomotives and wagons.

2) Consider a different set of switches for the shunting yards for longer trains. Especially if you want to park one in a siding and let another one run. I have tried to draw my suggestion but not sure whether you can fit this all in or not.

3) Would highly recommend some signals (as previous user commented) before the merging of tracks. Look for the Hobby signals 74391 which can be operated by switch-box, and which can shut the current off for trains to stop. Will add lots of realism to layout.

Presentation1.jpg

Regards,BigGrin
Johnsnapshot.jpg
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Offline johnpatrickwack  
#9 Posted : 14 February 2017 02:09:42(UTC)
johnpatrickwack

United States   
Joined: 13/12/2016(UTC)
Posts: 147
Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA
I very much appreciate the thoughtful replies and I made a few changes to the layout, picture included. The suggestion to flip the turnout in the upper right so that there is no S curve was great, but for the life of me I was unable to get this to work without seriously reworking geometry elsewhere and running into problems with the placement of piers for the ramps, so I moved the location of the switch farther away from the curve - I did find great examples using R1 curves but not R2. Also, it's okay with me not to have a return path in both directions on the inner loop because of the reverse loop, otherwise I'd put it in. My goal was to be able to have the train run the entire length of the ramps and bridges and traverse into the inner loop and switchback without having to throw any of the switches. My other goal was to reduce the amount of R1 needed, but I am trying to re-use some M track ramps that are essentially the same as R1.

When I had essentially this same layout but all in M, I could run some longer coaches that were lighted, but they'd generally derail on the switches placed near the 5130 M curves. However, they were fine on the 5130 M ramps, and on C track, no derailments regardless of R1 or R2. I hate getting away from the nostalgic M track, but I can readily see the advantages of C track.

The suggestion for using signals was great - I know little about signals but found some good threads and need to find a copy of the Marklin signal manual. Yet another thing for me to learn - but it's very interesting. I guess I'll put up this layout but not screw anything down till I get to understand signals better.

Again, thank you to all for these wonderful and thoughtful John2-C.jpgsuggestions - if anyone has any further suggestions or can get the upper right turnout in the previous picture of the layout to work in an R2 curve, I'd be very appreciate.

Cheers, John

---
John P. Wack
Silver Spring, MD
Offline johnpatrickwack  
#10 Posted : 14 February 2017 03:02:51(UTC)
johnpatrickwack

United States   
Joined: 13/12/2016(UTC)
Posts: 147
Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA
Because I am now obsessed, here is another pic of the layout with further reduction of inner R1 curves when traversing ramps and bridges and into the reverse loop.

Cheers, John

John2-C.jpg
---
John P. Wack
Silver Spring, MD
Offline RayF  
#11 Posted : 14 February 2017 12:32:32(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: johnpatrickwack Go to Quoted Post


...

The suggestion for using signals was great - I know little about signals but found some good threads and need to find a copy of the Marklin signal manual. Yet another thing for me to learn - but it's very interesting. I guess I'll put up this layout but not screw anything down till I get to understand signals better.

....

Cheers, John



You can download a scan of the signal manual here:

http://www.lctm.info/Sec...lioteca/Libros/index.php
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline johnpatrickwack  
#12 Posted : 14 February 2017 15:44:19(UTC)
johnpatrickwack

United States   
Joined: 13/12/2016(UTC)
Posts: 147
Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA
Thank you Ray!
---
John P. Wack
Silver Spring, MD
Offline johnpatrickwack  
#13 Posted : 14 February 2017 17:57:29(UTC)
johnpatrickwack

United States   
Joined: 13/12/2016(UTC)
Posts: 147
Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA
Ray (or any others),

Again, thank you for the links. Since using signals in my layout was recommended, and I hate to ask a question that probably has been asked many times here, but for a newbie to analog and digital signals, what is the best reference document to read? I've seen threads here that recommend the 3402 manual, however when I've tried to find it I see that it's out of print. So what I'm looking for is the most up to date reference. I realize this may not exist and there may be a number of documents. Alternatively or in addition, it would be great to find some FAQs with topics such as "To slow and stop a train before a switch and an oncoming train, do and buy this:", but haven't found anything like this.

Thank you for you help, John
---
John P. Wack
Silver Spring, MD
Offline Johnvr  
#14 Posted : 14 February 2017 21:30:07(UTC)
Johnvr

South Africa   
Joined: 03/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,269
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
John,

My recommendation is that you start off with the basic arrangement of :
4 x 74391 Marklin signals
1 x 72751 Marklin control box
You will be able to push the buttons to change the colour of the signal, and the train will stop when the signal is red.

Here is a link to the Marklin directory :

Marklin Signal 74391

"This is a simple block signal for use on rail lines away from station areas. The signal aspects change from Hp0 (red) to Hp1 (green). Track current can be controlled by means of the 72751 control box. Maintenance-free LEDs. Height without base approximately 78 mm / 3-1/16". A suitable control box is 72751. The 74391 signal cannot be operated with other controllers"

The more advanced arrangement is to make the train slow down and stop at the signal, and to have more signal automation around the layout. However, this advanced arrangement will require a number of more complex accessories, such as Braking Modules, Digitising the Signal operations, m84 decoder, programming the locomotive decoder, etc, all of which will be a stretch of capability and a dent in the wallet. Can be done if you are keen for the challenge !

Regards,BigGrin
John
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Offline baggio  
#15 Posted : 14 February 2017 22:59:56(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
I love your layout, John, and salute your desire to show today's kids something that is not a virtual reality from a video game. ThumpUp

I woulds suggest you try to arrange on the right side of your layout (away from the Christmas tree), where you have plenty of space a passing lane where you can park a pretty long train that would not need to be reversed. I found reversing long trains a bit of a challenge. Even better, try making the siding actually reach the main layout on the other side so as to be parked but then depart going forward. As it is, you have the ability to park one long train, which then needs to be reversed, and one small train.

More importantly, you may want to consider putting all around your layout a retaining wall to prevent trains from falling off the table Scared.

Same thing for the nice bridge that crosses the layout. Looks great but not so great if the train falls off the bridge onto the main layout below.

In this respect, if you have several kids watching and moving about, the vibrations and/or the movement of little hands against the table could cause any loco crossing the bridge to fall off.

I had BOTH happen to me. Blushing Cursing

Please show us in due course the finished product.

Regards.

Silvano
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Offline johnpatrickwack  
#16 Posted : 15 February 2017 04:19:19(UTC)
johnpatrickwack

United States   
Joined: 13/12/2016(UTC)
Posts: 147
Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA
Johnvr and Baggio, thanks much for your suggestions. There is a lot to learn about signals, I think you have the right idea to take it simple and slow at first.

Cheers, John
---
John P. Wack
Silver Spring, MD
Offline johnpatrickwack  
#17 Posted : 15 February 2017 17:53:53(UTC)
johnpatrickwack

United States   
Joined: 13/12/2016(UTC)
Posts: 147
Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA
Baggio, I appreciate the suggestion for a passing lane - is this what you were thinking of? It's the track on the right that is shaded red.

Cheers, John

John3-C.jpg
---
John P. Wack
Silver Spring, MD
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Offline baggio  
#18 Posted : 15 February 2017 23:32:07(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Hi, John:

I like the red change you made since it can be used as the completion of an oval or as a siding for a long train.

In addition, you may want to consider removing those two sidings next to the new Faller Station that are not really independent of each other which would clear that whole area. You then could replace the 24360 going south with two switches/turnouts such that you get two parallel and independent sidings where the Faller station is.

In fact, you could probably have as many as four parallel sidings where you could park four trains and give a nice and realistic impression of a station, especially if you put a station platform in between (two sidings north of the platform and two south of it).

Do the factory and new station still give you enough space to put a Christmas tree there? If not, remove one of them so that the original idea of a Christmas tree is not lost.

You could even replace the Christmas tree when not in season with a narrow but tall hill/pyramid, as Johnvr did, very nice. Ask him to give you the link to this specific spot. I think you will like it.

Please do not forget to put the protective walls I suggested....

Take care.

Silvano
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Offline Johnvr  
#19 Posted : 17 February 2017 08:14:11(UTC)
Johnvr

South Africa   
Joined: 03/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,269
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Hi John

It is definitely better option to purchase the 60841 (m84 decoder) if you are thinking of further automation.

The 60841 can be connected to either MS2 or Central Station.

The 60841 can also be activated by circuit tracks on your layout, meaning that a locomotive on one part of your layout can automatically activate signals on another part of your layout, so you build some realism into trains stopping and starting automatically.

The 60841 also has a built-in relay which will assist you later with the trains slowing down and stopping in front of the signal too, with brakes squealing as you heard on my layout. I use the 60841 with 4 x 74391 signals and I made my own electronic braking delays. A word of advice here is that its a good idea to build these options into you track layout now so that you don't have to lift up your track later and re-work the layout. It requires planning of where the track current isolation sections will be for the braking, and where circuit track activators should be included in your layout.

Regards,BigGrin
John
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Offline johnpatrickwack  
#20 Posted : 21 February 2017 01:48:28(UTC)
johnpatrickwack

United States   
Joined: 13/12/2016(UTC)
Posts: 147
Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA
After everyone's help, here's what I've ended up with - still a 48 inch x 86 inch (122 cm x 218.5 cm) layout, much more cramped than I would like, but this will help me get started and possibly even convince my wife to let me do more. Thank you for all the suggestions - if there are any more, I'm always interested. This is a combination of C track and then M track for ramps and bridges. Because of the M track ramps, I still have some sharp curves, but thus far everything has worked out well, no derailments. I did find some useful information in the forum about gradual curves that was very helpful.

Now, on to figuring out signals!

Cheers, John

John5-C.jpg
---
John P. Wack
Silver Spring, MD
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