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Offline mb300e4m  
#1 Posted : 26 November 2013 23:51:15(UTC)
mb300e4m


Joined: 07/06/2013(UTC)
Posts: 424
Location: Florida
I recently acquired a Roxy Metropolitan (made in Switzerland) BLS loco which appears to be equipped with Marklin DCC. It is a twin motor, three rail model. It has a PC board installed, and came with instructions on how to modify Marklin M track if one experiences difficulty with the center slider when passing through an M track turnout.

Are there any members that are familiar with these locos that could supply me with any information about them? I have Googled for info, but there seems to be very little about these locos on the web.

I have attached some pictures; I hope they show up in the posting. The one only shows one motor.

I do not have any DCC equipment of any kind; I am strictly a straight DC and AC user/collector, at least at the moment. I am building a layout with three rail Trix Express nickel silver track which will allow me to run my 2 and 3 rail, AC and DC, fine and course scale Marklin, Trix Express, Trix Twin, Fleischmann, Hornby Dublo and others on the same track-work. Not all at the same time of course.

Thanks, Peter B.
mb300e4m attached the following image(s):
Roxy BLS 002.jpg
Roxy Metrop 075.jpg
482_1.jpg
Peter B.
In Sunny Florida most of the time.
Marklin, Trix Express, Trix Twin, Fleischmann, Liliput, Hornby Dublo, and Others, 2 & 3 Rail, AC, DC and Digital, Course Scale Wheels & Fine, 1935 to 1960s usually.
Offline mb300e4m  
#2 Posted : 26 November 2013 23:59:05(UTC)
mb300e4m


Joined: 07/06/2013(UTC)
Posts: 424
Location: Florida
The picture showing the turnout instructions did not post in the original posting even though it uploaded.

Peter B.
mb300e4m attached the following image(s):
Roxy BLS 002.jpg
Peter B.
In Sunny Florida most of the time.
Marklin, Trix Express, Trix Twin, Fleischmann, Liliput, Hornby Dublo, and Others, 2 & 3 Rail, AC, DC and Digital, Course Scale Wheels & Fine, 1935 to 1960s usually.
Offline mike c  
#3 Posted : 27 November 2013 06:15:27(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
I am not too familiar with this model. Roxy was a division of Metropolitan SA, a Lausanne based small producer of Swiss (and some other models).
The company disappeared in the 1990s. From what I can tell, the main inventory of parts was acquired by Modelltechnik Renfer www.morep.ch

According to the box in the photo, the model is a 2 rail DC version.
The AC version would have been numbered 10 021

It is possible that this may either be an AC model with a DC box or a DC model that was converted to AC.
As far as I know, no official Roxy model left the factory with DCC or modern digital installed

See: http://ho-2-et-3rails.fo...75-roxy-le-zamak-moderne
http://www.train-passion-pocher.com/?p=595

Pocher/4assi was an Italian company based in Turin who did some production for the Lausanne based Metropolitan S.A./Roxy brands

Regards

Mike C
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by mike c
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 27 November 2013 08:03:57(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mb300e4m Go to Quoted Post
[...] which appears to be equipped with Marklin DCC.
How do you define "Marklin DCC"?

Looks like a loco for Märklin three-rail, but if you think it's digital then please show a photo of the decoder.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline mb300e4m  
#5 Posted : 27 November 2013 13:57:05(UTC)
mb300e4m


Joined: 07/06/2013(UTC)
Posts: 424
Location: Florida
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
I am not too familiar with this model. Roxy was a division of Metropolitan SA, a Lausanne based small producer of Swiss (and some other models).
The company disappeared in the 1990s. From what I can tell, the main inventory of parts was acquired by Modelltechnik Renfer www.morep.ch

According to the box in the photo, the model is a 2 rail DC version.
The AC version would have been numbered 10 021

It is possible that this may either be an AC model with a DC box or a DC model that was converted to AC.
As far as I know, no official Roxy model left the factory with DCC or modern digital installed

See: http://ho-2-et-3rails.fo...75-roxy-le-zamak-moderne
http://www.train-passion-pocher.com/?p=595

Pocher/4assi was an Italian company based in Turin who did some production for the Lausanne based Metropolitan S.A./Roxy brands

Regards

Mike C


Thanks Mike for the leads, I will investigate further.

Peter B.
Peter B.
In Sunny Florida most of the time.
Marklin, Trix Express, Trix Twin, Fleischmann, Liliput, Hornby Dublo, and Others, 2 & 3 Rail, AC, DC and Digital, Course Scale Wheels & Fine, 1935 to 1960s usually.
Offline mb300e4m  
#6 Posted : 27 November 2013 14:01:40(UTC)
mb300e4m


Joined: 07/06/2013(UTC)
Posts: 424
Location: Florida
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mb300e4m Go to Quoted Post
[...] which appears to be equipped with Marklin DCC.
How do you define "Marklin DCC"?

Looks like a loco for Märklin three-rail, but if you think it's digital then please show a photo of the decoder.


Thanks Tom, I use the term DCC in the generic sense, but if you look at the one picture in the first post showing the internals, one can see a PC board with many components attached. It is located near the center of the loco chassis. Next time I have the cover off, I will take a picture of the board. Can't do it right now; too many toys, not enough time.

Peter B.
Peter B.
In Sunny Florida most of the time.
Marklin, Trix Express, Trix Twin, Fleischmann, Liliput, Hornby Dublo, and Others, 2 & 3 Rail, AC, DC and Digital, Course Scale Wheels & Fine, 1935 to 1960s usually.
Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 27 November 2013 16:16:02(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mb300e4m Go to Quoted Post
I use the term DCC in the generic sense
I only saw the strict sense of DCC (Déformation professionnelle maybe).
"The NMRA has trademarked the term DCC, so while the term Digital Command Control is sometimes used to describe any digital model railway control system, strictly speaking it refers to NMRA DCC."
http://en.wikipedia.org/.../Digital_Command_Control

Originally Posted by: mb300e4m Go to Quoted Post
but if you look at the one picture in the first post showing the internals, one can see a PC board with many components attached.
The loco on the photo does not have a centre rail pickup. So I assumed your loco would be different.
Most likely the PCB is a purely analogue electronic reversing unit that allows a loco with a DC motor to operate in both directions on a layout fed with AC.
So not Märklin, not DCC in the strict sense, not DCC in the generic sense - just an analogue loco that can run on Märklin tracks (if my guess with the reversing unit should be correct).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline jvuye  
#8 Posted : 27 November 2013 17:07:54(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Hi Peter!
I happen to know these locos **very** well!
Between my grandson and I we have 4 of them!
One was originally 3 rails AC (with the same relay as yours) and single motor, a second one was dual motor and the others were 2-rail locos which I converted to three-rails.
They are quite noisy, with their big can motor, but with a fresh set of tires, it pulls the same loads as any Märklin loco

The last two are of the second generation with a Faulhaber motor. Quieter and smoother. Truly perfect mechanically.

The main vulnerability of the first generation type is the nylon pinions in the transmission: they were all "split" and running freely on their axles, so my first job with these was to replace the pinions.
They don't have any electrical lights on the bogies, just a single center line one in the center of the roof.

The second generation corrected these problems and doesn't have any mechanical problems, but the small headlights installed on the bogies are troublesome

The "electronic" device in the middle is like Tom said above: just an old plain analog inversion relay.
And yes, yours is a 3-rail, first generation version with the two little pick ups on each end , sliding vertically in a nylon sleeve, and picking up power from a spring blade on top of the bogie.

So, providing that the gears are ok, you should have **no trouble** at all running this one on an analog AC layout!

If it needs new gears, it is a delicate operation.
But I will share all I know if you need the info.

Cheers
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
Offline mb300e4m  
#9 Posted : 27 November 2013 21:05:35(UTC)
mb300e4m


Joined: 07/06/2013(UTC)
Posts: 424
Location: Florida
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mb300e4m Go to Quoted Post
I use the term DCC in the generic sense
I only saw the strict sense of DCC (Déformation professionnelle maybe).
"The NMRA has trademarked the term DCC, so while the term Digital Command Control is sometimes used to describe any digital model railway control system, strictly speaking it refers to NMRA DCC."
http://en.wikipedia.org/.../Digital_Command_Control

Originally Posted by: mb300e4m Go to Quoted Post
but if you look at the one picture in the first post showing the internals, one can see a PC board with many components attached.
The loco on the photo does not have a centre rail pickup. So I assumed your loco would be different.
Most likely the PCB is a purely analogue electronic reversing unit that allows a loco with a DC motor to operate in both directions on a layout fed with AC.
So not Märklin, not DCC in the strict sense, not DCC in the generic sense - just an analogue loco that can run on Märklin tracks (if my guess with the reversing unit should be correct).


Hi Tom,

I did some research on one of the sites that Mike posted and found that indeed the PC board is an "Inverseur Electronique", part number 116-216 I believe. So I assume that it is a DC loco equipped to run on AC 3 rail. By the way, it only has one center pickup and looks like it only ever had one center pickup.

When I acquired the loco, I was completely ignorant of Roxy Metropolitan, but have learned a lot today.

Peter B.
Peter B.
In Sunny Florida most of the time.
Marklin, Trix Express, Trix Twin, Fleischmann, Liliput, Hornby Dublo, and Others, 2 & 3 Rail, AC, DC and Digital, Course Scale Wheels & Fine, 1935 to 1960s usually.
Offline mb300e4m  
#10 Posted : 27 November 2013 21:19:21(UTC)
mb300e4m


Joined: 07/06/2013(UTC)
Posts: 424
Location: Florida
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Hi Peter!
I happen to know these locos **very** well!
Between my grandson and I we have 4 of them!
One was originally 3 rails AC (with the same relay as yours) and single motor, a second one was dual motor and the others were 2-rail locos which I converted to three-rails.
They are quite noisy, with their big can motor, but with a fresh set of tires, it pulls the same loads as any Märklin loco

The last two are of the second generation with a Faulhaber motor. Quieter and smoother. Truly perfect mechanically.

The main vulnerability of the first generation type is the nylon pinions in the transmission: they were all "split" and running freely on their axles, so my first job with these was to replace the pinions.
They don't have any electrical lights on the bogies, just a single center line one in the center of the roof.

The second generation corrected these problems and doesn't have any mechanical problems, but the small headlights installed on the bogies are troublesome

The "electronic" device in the middle is like Tom said above: just an old plain analog inversion relay.
And yes, yours is a 3-rail, first generation version with the two little pick ups on each end , sliding vertically in a nylon sleeve, and picking up power from a spring blade on top of the bogie.

So, providing that the gears are ok, you should have **no trouble** at all running this one on an analog AC layout!

If it needs new gears, it is a delicate operation.
But I will share all I know if you need the info.

Cheers


Bon Jour Jacques,

This is my first experience with Roy Metrop locos and I have been into model railways since 1947, ouch!

I will dismantle this loco soon and give it a thorough check of the condition of the nylon pinions etc. I suspect that the one bogie is in trouble as I can turn the drive wheels quite freely. I do a lot of restoration work on older Trix Express, Trix Twin and Fleischmann so am not afraid to tackle a mechanical or electrical repair. I have two workshops here at the house, one is climate controlled and the other is not. The indoor one is where I do most of my model railway work.

I would certainly appreciate any help you can be to me in getting my first Roxy Metrop loco back into good working order. It certainly is a fine looking piece.

Are we going to get into trouble if we keep discussing a non-Marklin loco on the site?

Peter B.

Edited by user 27 October 2016 19:12:09(UTC)  | Reason: spelling error.

Peter B.
In Sunny Florida most of the time.
Marklin, Trix Express, Trix Twin, Fleischmann, Liliput, Hornby Dublo, and Others, 2 & 3 Rail, AC, DC and Digital, Course Scale Wheels & Fine, 1935 to 1960s usually.
Offline mb300e4m  
#11 Posted : 27 November 2013 21:26:44(UTC)
mb300e4m


Joined: 07/06/2013(UTC)
Posts: 424
Location: Florida
I forgot to mention that I have also done quite a bit of restoration of Marklin too, but it was all in the pre-digital camera days, so don't have any pictures to share.

Peter B.
Peter B.
In Sunny Florida most of the time.
Marklin, Trix Express, Trix Twin, Fleischmann, Liliput, Hornby Dublo, and Others, 2 & 3 Rail, AC, DC and Digital, Course Scale Wheels & Fine, 1935 to 1960s usually.
Offline H0  
#12 Posted : 27 November 2013 21:28:39(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mb300e4m Go to Quoted Post
Are we going to get into trouble if we keep discussing a non-Marklin loco on the site?
It was made to run on Märklin tracks, so why should there be problems?Flapper

I think Juhan will allow any talk that is friendly and somewhat related to RR or MRR. And Formula 1 and Soccer can be discussed in the NMR section ...
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline mb300e4m  
#13 Posted : 27 November 2013 22:14:57(UTC)
mb300e4m


Joined: 07/06/2013(UTC)
Posts: 424
Location: Florida
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mb300e4m Go to Quoted Post
Are we going to get into trouble if we keep discussing a non-Marklin loco on the site?
It was made to run on Märklin tracks, so why should there be problems?Flapper

I think Juhan will allow any talk that is friendly and somewhat related to RR or MRR. And Formula 1 and Soccer can be discussed in the NMR section ...


Thanks Tom I am relieved to hear that.

There is a lot of model railway info, tips and tricks that apply across the board. Also I have not yet found a forum for Fleischmann either. I belong to a Yahoo Fleischmann group and a Trix Express group in South America, but they are very very quiet. I am not sure what that tells you/us.

Peter B.
Peter B.
In Sunny Florida most of the time.
Marklin, Trix Express, Trix Twin, Fleischmann, Liliput, Hornby Dublo, and Others, 2 & 3 Rail, AC, DC and Digital, Course Scale Wheels & Fine, 1935 to 1960s usually.
Offline H0  
#14 Posted : 27 November 2013 22:31:10(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Formula 1 can be discussed here. Faller can be discussed here. Fleischmann can be discussed here. You get the picture? It's OK if it starts with F.
I have some Fleischmann locos, but I prefer the stuff from the digital 1:87 era. I cannot help you with older, larger analogue stuff.

BTW: Several Fleischmann products appeared in the Märklin catalgoue with a Märklin ref. number.

Most people here have Märklin H0 - some digital, some analogue. Not many Z gauge or 1 gauge discussions here. Even fewer for N gauge or G gauge.
I'm not sure if we had Trix Express threads here, but why not.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline jvuye  
#15 Posted : 27 November 2013 23:03:37(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: mb300e4m Go to Quoted Post

......
I would certainly appreciate any help you can be to me in getting my first Roxy Metrop loco back into good working order. It certainly is a fine looking piece.

....

Peter B.


OK Peter.
No sweat
Will get the recipe together for you asap...but you'll have to sleep at least one night over it!Wink RollEyes
It's 11:00 PM here and I had a long day, time to get some rest....be back here tomorrow...same channel!Smile
Cheers
Jacques

Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
Offline mb300e4m  
#16 Posted : 27 November 2013 23:13:20(UTC)
mb300e4m


Joined: 07/06/2013(UTC)
Posts: 424
Location: Florida
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mb300e4m Go to Quoted Post

......
I would certainly appreciate any help you can be to me in getting my first Roxy Metrop loco back into good working order. It certainly is a fine looking piece.

....

Peter B.


OK Peter.
No sweat
Will get the recipe together for you asap...but you'll have to sleep at least one night over it!Wink RollEyes
It's 11:00 PM here and I had a long day, time to get some rest....be back here tomorrow...same channel!Smile
Cheers
Jacques



Thanks very much Jacques. Take your time, no big rush. I probably won't start on it until January what with Christmas preparations starting this week.

Peter B.
Peter B.
In Sunny Florida most of the time.
Marklin, Trix Express, Trix Twin, Fleischmann, Liliput, Hornby Dublo, and Others, 2 & 3 Rail, AC, DC and Digital, Course Scale Wheels & Fine, 1935 to 1960s usually.
Offline mike c  
#17 Posted : 28 November 2013 20:11:32(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Peter,

if you need any parts, I would contact Renfer (morep.ch). Those parts must by now be pretty hard to come by.

Regards

Mike C
Offline mb300e4m  
#18 Posted : 29 November 2013 00:14:57(UTC)
mb300e4m


Joined: 07/06/2013(UTC)
Posts: 424
Location: Florida
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
Peter,

if you need any parts, I would contact Renfer (morep.ch). Those parts must by now be pretty hard to come by.

Regards

Mike C


Thanks for the tip Mike, I will go to their website and check them out.

The Pre-war Trix 0-4-0 thin chassis used a fiber intermediate gear between the armature sprocket and the drive wheels and they have very poor survival rate. One of our Trix guys figured out how to use a Fleischmann one with little bit of modification. Necessity is the Mother of invention I guess.

Cheers,

Peter B.
Peter B.
In Sunny Florida most of the time.
Marklin, Trix Express, Trix Twin, Fleischmann, Liliput, Hornby Dublo, and Others, 2 & 3 Rail, AC, DC and Digital, Course Scale Wheels & Fine, 1935 to 1960s usually.
Offline jvuye  
#19 Posted : 29 November 2013 11:20:38(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: mb300e4m Go to Quoted Post

...

The Pre-war Trix 0-4-0 thin chassis used a fiber intermediate gear between the armature sprocket and the drive wheels and they have very poor survival rate. One of our Trix guys figured out how to use a Fleischmann one with little bit of modification. Necessity is the Mother of invention I guess.

Cheers,

Peter B.


Exactly!
That's why I learned and invested in gear cutting techniques.
Today I can make 99.9% of the gears used by Märklin in their HO equipment (single or compound) since they are all mod 0.4 gears, in any material: steel; brass, bronze or nylon/ABS
However the gears in your Metrop Roxy Ae 6/8 are 14 teeth, mod 0.5, and so are most of Fleischmann's gears.
For the few cases I need mod 0.5 or mod 0.3 gears (like in the Kaizer Hofzug loko) I buy standard parts from the shelf from a company here in France. (I think it is easier to procure metric gear in Europe that in the US.)
I then machine them to fit in the lok in question.
Obtaining the right parts is in fact the biggest part of the restoration of your lok!
The only complexity is to do the adaptation with very high precision (perfect centering and dimensional conformity) as to achieve a smooth running machine afterwards.
More on this when I finish writing the documented restoration "recipe" for this loco!
Cheers


Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by jvuye
Offline mb300e4m  
#20 Posted : 27 October 2016 20:27:54(UTC)
mb300e4m


Joined: 07/06/2013(UTC)
Posts: 424
Location: Florida
Roxy-Metrop Repair

A few weeks ago I got around to dismantling it after a delay of almost three years. I fully expected to find stripped gears on at least one of the motors but both sets were OK. What I did find was that the one motor was loose; it was simply resting on the bogie frame. Consequently the worm gear was not engaged in the gear train. That is why I could freely rotate the one set of drive wheels by hand.

A closer inspection revealed that each motor is held in place by a single hold down bolt. One of them had been over-zealously tightened by the previous owner and the head had pulled through the cast bogie frame. You should be able to see the hole in the one picture.

P9150512.JPGP9140494.JPGP9150515.JPG

I tried a number of schemes to re-attach the motor but none would work. The hole was now too big to let the countersunk screw hold fast, and a washer under the screw head meant the center pickup would touch the screw head when the loco was on the track. Also the threaded hole in the motor where the bolt is screwed in was mostly stripped. I had considered drilling and tapping a new bolt hole in the motor adjacent to the original, but could not get the motor opened up and did not want the swarf to get into the motor. If one looked very carefully down the bolt hole in the motor I could see the armature turn when I rotated the worm gear by hand.

Temporarily it has been converted to a one motor loco until I can find a fix for the motor mount. The motor mounting method is a really chintzy arrangement especially for what would have been an expensive loco when new. If it had been the other motor at the end without a pickup, the fix would have been simple.

I could not get any joy out of the AC reverser, so it is bypassed for now making the loco a single motor three rail DC type. But that is OK, I have lots of three rail DC Trix types it can play along with.

Maybe it will take me another three years for me to come up with viable remedies. If I find a solution for the motor mounting, I could be happy with a three rail two motor DC drive.

Peter B.

Edited by user 28 October 2016 01:33:42(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter B.
In Sunny Florida most of the time.
Marklin, Trix Express, Trix Twin, Fleischmann, Liliput, Hornby Dublo, and Others, 2 & 3 Rail, AC, DC and Digital, Course Scale Wheels & Fine, 1935 to 1960s usually.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by mb300e4m
GLI
Offline dominator  
#21 Posted : 28 October 2016 01:53:41(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,195
Location: Kerikeri
In the automotive field we used to get Gee Jay and IWL assortments. In one et we got countersunk screws and special cup washers for mounting interior trims on very old vehicles. You could try using on of those washers to effectivly make the head of the screw bigger. or you could get a piece of glave sheet, cut a washer of the appropriate sie and when you screw it in, it should reshape the washer to fit . A simple fix I think. [ A cross sectional view of the special washer would be a "W" or an "M"]

Dereck
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by dominator
Offline jvuye  
#22 Posted : 28 October 2016 16:50:02(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: mb300e4m Go to Quoted Post
Roxy-Metrop Repair

A few weeks ago I got around to dismantling it after a delay of almost three years. I fully expected to find stripped gears on at least one of the motors but both sets were OK. What I did find was that the one motor was loose; it was simply resting on the bogie frame. Consequently the worm gear was not engaged in the gear train. That is why I could freely rotate the one set of drive wheels by hand.

A closer inspection revealed that each motor is held in place by a single hold down bolt. One of them had been over-zealously tightened by the previous owner and the head had pulled through the cast bogie frame. You should be able to see the hole in the one picture.

P9150512.JPGP9140494.JPGP9150515.JPG

I tried a number of schemes to re-attach the motor but none would work. The hole was now too big to let the countersunk screw hold fast, and a washer under the screw head meant the center pickup would touch the screw head when the loco was on the track. Also the threaded hole in the motor where the bolt is screwed in was mostly stripped. I had considered drilling and tapping a new bolt hole in the motor adjacent to the original, but could not get the motor opened up and did not want the swarf to get into the motor. If one looked very carefully down the bolt hole in the motor I could see the armature turn when I rotated the worm gear by hand.

Temporarily it has been converted to a one motor loco until I can find a fix for the motor mount. The motor mounting method is a really chintzy arrangement especially for what would have been an expensive loco when new. If it had been the other motor at the end without a pickup, the fix would have been simple.

I could not get any joy out of the AC reverser, so it is bypassed for now making the loco a single motor three rail DC type. But that is OK, I have lots of three rail DC Trix types it can play along with.

Maybe it will take me another three years for me to come up with viable remedies. If I find a solution for the motor mounting, I could be happy with a three rail two motor DC drive.

Peter B.


Hi Peter
I think I could machine a brass insert that would recover the whole think.
But one would also have to machine the chassis slightly to accommodate the new part.
Can you make a pic of the whole thing including the (loose) motor to make sure we are on the same wavelength?
(I do have the same loco, so I should be able to figure it out...)
Cheers


Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
Offline jvuye  
#23 Posted : 28 October 2016 17:22:18(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mb300e4m Go to Quoted Post
Roxy-Metrop Repair

A few weeks ago I got around to dismantling it after a delay of almost three years. I fully expected to find stripped gears on at least one of the motors but both sets were OK. What I did find was that the one motor was loose; it was simply resting on the bogie frame. Consequently the worm gear was not engaged in the gear train. That is why I could freely rotate the one set of drive wheels by hand.

A closer inspection revealed that each motor is held in place by a single hold down bolt. One of them had been over-zealously tightened by the previous owner and the head had pulled through the cast bogie frame. You should be able to see the hole in the one picture.
......

Maybe it will take me another three years for me to come up with viable remedies. If I find a solution for the motor mounting, I could be happy with a three rail two motor DC drive.

Peter B.


Hi Peter
I think I could machine a brass insert that would recover the whole think.
But one would also have to machine the chassis slightly to accommodate the new part.
Can you make a pic of the whole thing including the (loose) motor to make sure we are on the same wavelength?
(I do have the same loco, so I should be able to figure it out...)
Cheers




Actually just looked at it.
The solution seems obvious: a custom made screw with a large diam flat and thin head.(Yours is shot anyway! Wink
It's the same idea as Derek's, except it's in one piece! Wink
Can you measure the screw (M2, M2.5 or M3?) and the length of the stem in mm ? (No I don't really want to dismantle mine, as it is slightly different with two **short** pick ups , one at each end !!)
It's a small item, postage in a jiffy envelope should be negligible.
Cheers
Jacques
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline mb300e4m  
#24 Posted : 28 October 2016 18:46:18(UTC)
mb300e4m


Joined: 07/06/2013(UTC)
Posts: 424
Location: Florida


Actually just looked at it.
The solution seems obvious: a custom made screw with a large diam flat and thin head.(Yours is shot anyway! Wink
It's the same idea as Derek's, except it's in one piece! Wink
Can you measure the screw (M2, M2.5 or M3?) and the length of the stem in mm ? (No I don't really want to dismantle mine, as it is slightly different with two **short** pick ups , one at each end !!)
It's a small item, postage in a jiffy envelope should be negligible.
Cheers
Jacques


Hello Jacques,

Thanks very much for the offer. Here are a few pictures of the motor.

P9160522.JPGP9160523.JPGP9150498.JPG

In addition to a new screw, I was thinking that because the bogie frame was weakened where the screw passed through, I could epoxy a washer to the inside surface where the screw passes through. This should give some added strength to the metal. The original screw had pulled through the hole and turned it into a sort of countersunk hole. But I fixed that, the surface is flat again, but the hole is somewhat larger than it should be. It is not much larger but enough not to hold the screw securely. Also because the outer part of the threaded hole in the motor is partly stripped or worn, maybe a longer screw in in order. The threads at the inner part of the hole feel to be OK. I could always trim the screw length if it contacts the commutator when it is screwed in to place.

Keeping in mind that the USA is predominately non-metric, here are some dimensions using my Chinese made metric micrometer.

Overall Length: 17.0 mm
Shoulder Diameter: 1.67 mm
Thread Diameter: 1.67 mm
Head Diameter: 4.50 mm
Pitch: Unknown.

I hope this helps.
Peter B.
Peter B.
In Sunny Florida most of the time.
Marklin, Trix Express, Trix Twin, Fleischmann, Liliput, Hornby Dublo, and Others, 2 & 3 Rail, AC, DC and Digital, Course Scale Wheels & Fine, 1935 to 1960s usually.
Offline jvuye  
#25 Posted : 29 October 2016 16:44:28(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: mb300e4m Go to Quoted Post


Actually just looked at it.
The solution seems obvious: a custom made screw with a large diam flat and thin head.(Yours is shot anyway! Wink
It's the same idea as Derek's, except it's in one piece! Wink
Can you measure the screw (M2, M2.5 or M3?) and the length of the stem in mm ? (No I don't really want to dismantle mine, as it is slightly different with two **short** pick ups , one at each end !!)
It's a small item, postage in a jiffy envelope should be negligible.
Cheers
Jacques


Hello Jacques,

Thanks very much for the offer. Here are a few pictures of the motor.
....

In addition to a new screw, I was thinking that because the bogie frame was weakened where the screw passed through, I could epoxy a washer to the inside surface where the screw passes through. This should give some added strength to the metal. The original screw had pulled through the hole and turned it into a sort of countersunk hole. But I fixed that, the surface is flat again, but the hole is somewhat larger than it should be. It is not much larger but enough not to hold the screw securely. Also because the outer part of the threaded hole in the motor is partly stripped or worn, maybe a longer screw in in order. The threads at the inner part of the hole feel to be OK. I could always trim the screw length if it contacts the commutator when it is screwed in to place.

Keeping in mind that the USA is predominately non-metric, here are some dimensions using my Chinese made metric micrometer.

Overall Length: 17.0 mm
Shoulder Diameter: 1.67 mm
Thread Diameter: 1.67 mm
Head Diameter: 4.50 mm
Pitch: Unknown.

I hope this helps.
Peter B.


Ok, so it's M 1.7. Quite a small diameterfor such an application, but I checked it's the same on mine.
BTW, I lived about 30 years in California, I am aware that the US *was* predominantly non-metric. (But today all your cars are metric for example: My 1996 Ford Windstar was!)

Plumbing here in France still use a fair amount of English measures too.
I can handle both Cool Laugh
let's not be bothered with details!BigGrin
On the overall length of the screw,is 17 mm the overall length, head included or is it just the shank's length?
Please send me a PM with a coordinates, as soon as I have the part machined, I'll mailed it to you.
Cheers
Jacques
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by jvuye
Offline mb300e4m  
#26 Posted : 29 October 2016 22:36:18(UTC)
mb300e4m


Joined: 07/06/2013(UTC)
Posts: 424
Location: Florida


Ok, so it's M 1.7. Quite a small diameter for such an application, but I checked it's the same on mine.
BTW, I lived about 30 years in California, I am aware that the US *was* predominantly non-metric. (But today all your cars are metric for example: My 1996 Ford Windstar was!)

Plumbing here in France still use a fair amount of English measures too.
I can handle both Cool Laugh
let's not be bothered with details!BigGrin
On the overall length of the screw,is 17 mm the overall length, head included or is it just the shank's length?
Please send me a PM with a coordinates, as soon as I have the part machined, I'll mailed it to you.
Cheers
Jacques


Hello Jacques,

The head is included in the 17 mm overall length. The shoulder is 10 mm including the head and the threaded part is 7 mm.

Would it pay to make the screw a few mm longer, because the outer threads in the motor are somewhat damaged. A longer screw with more tread length may bite and hold better. If it contacts the comm, I can shorten it. If I could get the motor apart, I would drill and thread a new hole.

I took the loco to our local show today and she performed quite well with only one motor, but will do twice as well with two.

I really appreciate your help with this. BigGrin

Peter B.

Edited by user 30 October 2016 13:35:11(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter B.
In Sunny Florida most of the time.
Marklin, Trix Express, Trix Twin, Fleischmann, Liliput, Hornby Dublo, and Others, 2 & 3 Rail, AC, DC and Digital, Course Scale Wheels & Fine, 1935 to 1960s usually.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by mb300e4m
Offline mb300e4m  
#27 Posted : 02 December 2016 22:40:11(UTC)
mb300e4m


Joined: 07/06/2013(UTC)
Posts: 424
Location: Florida
Here is the second motor with the all new and improved hold-down screw. Thanks Jacques.

I will post more when I refit the motor to the chassis.
PC020684.JPG
Peter B.
In Sunny Florida most of the time.
Marklin, Trix Express, Trix Twin, Fleischmann, Liliput, Hornby Dublo, and Others, 2 & 3 Rail, AC, DC and Digital, Course Scale Wheels & Fine, 1935 to 1960s usually.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by mb300e4m
Offline Goofy  
#28 Posted : 03 December 2016 13:58:14(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mb300e4m Go to Quoted Post
I use the term DCC in the generic sense
I only saw the strict sense of DCC (Déformation professionnelle maybe).
"The NMRA has trademarked the term DCC, so while the term Digital Command Control is sometimes used to describe any digital model railway control system, strictly speaking it refers to NMRA DCC."
http://en.wikipedia.org/.../Digital_Command_Control


It´s also possible missunderstanding.
DCC can also mean DC motor with C centre,therefore DCC as term.
This model from Roxy was made before digital did invaded in the market?

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline mb300e4m  
#29 Posted : 03 December 2016 20:44:29(UTC)
mb300e4m


Joined: 07/06/2013(UTC)
Posts: 424
Location: Florida
OK, so the next step was to countersink the hole where the screw fits through the chassis. I chose a center punch with the desired taper and a few taps with my modelling hammer produced the desired result. A perfect fit for the screw. The next step is to re-attach the motor. Wish me luck on that.

PC030691.JPG
I am not sure why the picture does not display properly when I posted the reply, it does that now and again. I attached it in the normal manner and now it is OK. Hmmm...
Peter B.
In Sunny Florida most of the time.
Marklin, Trix Express, Trix Twin, Fleischmann, Liliput, Hornby Dublo, and Others, 2 & 3 Rail, AC, DC and Digital, Course Scale Wheels & Fine, 1935 to 1960s usually.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by mb300e4m
Offline mb300e4m  
#30 Posted : 03 December 2016 21:06:07(UTC)
mb300e4m


Joined: 07/06/2013(UTC)
Posts: 424
Location: Florida
The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Well here we are...a lousy video clip but it serves the purpose.

PC030696.mp4 (3,673kb) downloaded 20 time(s).

Next step is to reassemble everything.

P.S. I do not know why the video does not display, it only seems to want to be downloaded. The same thing happened with the picture in the previous post, but somehow it magically fixed itself.
Peter B.
In Sunny Florida most of the time.
Marklin, Trix Express, Trix Twin, Fleischmann, Liliput, Hornby Dublo, and Others, 2 & 3 Rail, AC, DC and Digital, Course Scale Wheels & Fine, 1935 to 1960s usually.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by mb300e4m
Offline mb300e4m  
#31 Posted : 03 December 2016 23:07:55(UTC)
mb300e4m


Joined: 07/06/2013(UTC)
Posts: 424
Location: Florida
Originally Posted by: mb300e4m Go to Quoted Post
The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Well here we are...a lousy video clip but it serves the purpose.

PC030696.mp4 (3,673kb) downloaded 20 time(s).

Next step is to reassemble everything.



Here she is all back together and raring to go. She runs on AC now but will not reverse. I will leave that fix for a rainy day.

A big thanks goes to Jacques for making the part for me.

PC030699.JPG
Peter B.
In Sunny Florida most of the time.
Marklin, Trix Express, Trix Twin, Fleischmann, Liliput, Hornby Dublo, and Others, 2 & 3 Rail, AC, DC and Digital, Course Scale Wheels & Fine, 1935 to 1960s usually.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by mb300e4m
Offline jvuye  
#32 Posted : 04 December 2016 13:20:54(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Glad it worked out. I had some real concern with possible interference with the gears. Tried to keep the head+countersink within the bottom plate thickness. Also glad I have held on to my lathe and milling machine after Dr.Eisenbahn retirement. Wink
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by jvuye
Offline river6109  
#33 Posted : 04 December 2016 14:36:54(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: mb300e4m Go to Quoted Post
OK, so the next step was to countersink the hole where the screw fits through the chassis. I chose a center punch with the desired taper and a few taps with my modelling hammer produced the desired result. A perfect fit for the screw. The next step is to re-attach the motor. Wish me luck on that.

PC030691.JPG
I am not sure why the picture does not display properly when I posted the reply, it does that now and again. I attached it in the normal manner and now it is OK. Hmmm...

make sure your photos aren't to large otherwise the forum will reject them

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline mb300e4m  
#34 Posted : 04 December 2016 14:57:35(UTC)
mb300e4m


Joined: 07/06/2013(UTC)
Posts: 424
Location: Florida
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mb300e4m Go to Quoted Post

I am not sure why the picture does not display properly when I posted the reply, it does that now and again. I attached it in the normal manner ...

make sure your photos aren't to large otherwise the forum will reject them

John



Hi John, when I click on the paperclip and the picture upload window opens, it says: Note: Max. File Size of an Attachment is 19531 KB. That is over 19 MB. My pictures usually are a few hundred KB to less than 2 MB. The MP4 I uploaded was 3673 KB. It still does not show, it is still a download link.
Peter B.
In Sunny Florida most of the time.
Marklin, Trix Express, Trix Twin, Fleischmann, Liliput, Hornby Dublo, and Others, 2 & 3 Rail, AC, DC and Digital, Course Scale Wheels & Fine, 1935 to 1960s usually.
Offline mb300e4m  
#35 Posted : 04 December 2016 15:07:28(UTC)
mb300e4m


Joined: 07/06/2013(UTC)
Posts: 424
Location: Florida
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Glad it worked out. I had some real concern with possible interference with the gears. Tried to keep the head+countersink within the bottom plate thickness. Also glad I have held on to my lathe and milling machine after Dr.Eisenbahn retirement. Wink


Thanks again Jacques it worked out really well. She runs well now on AC but only in one direction, I will look into this another time.

PC030695.JPG

I have two Unimat DB200s, an SL1000 and half of another which is only good for parts. One of the DB200s is attached to a rolling tool cabinet and is set up to mill and turn without having to move the headstock to the milling post.

Cheers, Peter.
Peter B.
In Sunny Florida most of the time.
Marklin, Trix Express, Trix Twin, Fleischmann, Liliput, Hornby Dublo, and Others, 2 & 3 Rail, AC, DC and Digital, Course Scale Wheels & Fine, 1935 to 1960s usually.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by mb300e4m
Offline jvuye  
#36 Posted : 07 December 2016 10:58:03(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: mb300e4m Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Glad it worked out. I had some real concern with possible interference with the gears. Tried to keep the head+countersink within the bottom plate thickness. Also glad I have held on to my lathe and milling machine after Dr.Eisenbahn retirement. Wink


Thanks again Jacques it worked out really well. She runs well now on AC but only in one direction, I will look into this another time.

PC030695.JPG

I have two Unimat DB200s, an SL1000 and half of another which is only good for parts. One of the DB200s is attached to a rolling tool cabinet and is set up to mill and turn without having to move the headstock to the milling post.

Cheers, Peter.


I see the new screw is protruding a wee bit.
No interference/short circuit with the pick up shoe?
Just curious.
Cheers
Jacques

Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
Offline mb300e4m  
#37 Posted : 07 December 2016 16:14:15(UTC)
mb300e4m


Joined: 07/06/2013(UTC)
Posts: 424
Location: Florida
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mb300e4m Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Glad it worked out. I had some real concern with possible interference with the gears. Tried to keep the head+countersink within the bottom plate thickness. Also glad I have held on to my lathe and milling machine after Dr.Eisenbahn retirement. Wink


Thanks again Jacques it worked out really well. She runs well now on AC but only in one direction, I will look into this another time.

PC030695.JPG

I have two Unimat DB200s, an SL1000 and half of another which is only good for parts. One of the DB200s is attached to a rolling tool cabinet and is set up to mill and turn without having to move the headstock to the milling post.

Cheers, Peter.


I see the new screw is protruding a wee bit.
No interference/short circuit with the pick up shoe?
Just curious.
Cheers
Jacques



Hello again Jacques,

The screw does protrude a small amount but does not contact the pickup when it is pushed upwards full travel. The gap is difficult to measure but is about 0.5mm when the pickup is pushed upwards, and the gap is between 1.5 to 2mm when the loco is on the track, either Trix or Marklin type.

Thanks for doing this for me.

Cheers and a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you. BigGrin
Peter B.
In Sunny Florida most of the time.
Marklin, Trix Express, Trix Twin, Fleischmann, Liliput, Hornby Dublo, and Others, 2 & 3 Rail, AC, DC and Digital, Course Scale Wheels & Fine, 1935 to 1960s usually.
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