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Question the 4186 roof mystery - which of these wagons have a well placed roof ?
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Offline TrainIride  
#1 Posted : 19 October 2016 11:31:31(UTC)
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TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,912
Location: FRANCE
Just bought another Primex 4186 CIWL Baggage coach.
So , i have two now.

But when I compared The two models I have, If seen the roof was mounted in the opposite way for each:

px4186_roof_a.jpgpx4186_roof_b.jpg



The one on the left has the cab on the roof at the left of the wagon center window
The one on the right has the cab on the roof centered upon the wagon center window

So it's clear the roof has been mounted differently on each, or the previous owners have mounted/unmounted it without taking care.

so I started some investigations and found:



on one box, the sticker:

px4186-sticker.jpg



in the Primex 1991 catalog:

px4186_catalog.jpg



on the real pictures of the CIWL baggage coach:

Fourgon_CIWL_Drawing.jpgbaggage_ciwl.jpg



Well ???

What is wrong ?

So, I also investigated on the Märklin 4186 baggage coach (I don't have it):

on one box, the sticker:

mn4186_box.jpg

in the Märklin 1998 catalog:

mn4186_catalog.jpg



So where is the truth ?
Does Märklin decided to mount the roof on the opposite way of the catalogs ?
Does Märklin didn't give rules to mount the roof of these models ?


So If someone here bought new and unopened one of these models,
please give me informations !

Thank you in advance

Joël




Marklin HO - M track & C track - Analog mode - https://www.marklin-users.net/TrainIride - my channel : https://www.youtube.com/user/2mes2mains
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Offline dominator  
#2 Posted : 20 October 2016 04:46:47(UTC)
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dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,196
Location: Kerikeri
Don't those roofs just clip on. Marklin have shortened the wagons in relation to the originals. Note the originals have 3 sliding doors on the side whereas the Marklin has only 2. The Markilin lookout on the roof is between the doors ain the same way the original has the lookout between 2 dors at one end.
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
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Offline Markus Schild  
#3 Posted : 21 October 2016 21:03:23(UTC)
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Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,802
Location: Wurttemberg
Hi Joël,

Yes, it is a mystery. I own two factory sealed cars. On both the roofs are mounted like on the picture in the catalogue. But a third one the roof is mounted in the other direction. I'm also the first owner of that third car and I'm sure I never took of the roof. I think the roofs were just mounted randomly.

Regards

Markus
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#4 Posted : 21 October 2016 22:17:19(UTC)
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kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,668
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Joël
I have both the Primex (CIWL) and Marklin (Wurttemburg) versions of the 4186.

Both have the cupola edge 90mm from one roof end, and 100mm from the other end.
So the cupola sits between the door and window, as described on the box end for Marklin 4186.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline TrainIride  
#5 Posted : 23 October 2016 18:41:27(UTC)
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TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,912
Location: FRANCE
Thank you so much,
Dominator, Markus and Kimball for your answers,

Dominator, I agree with you, our models must match reality.
But in this case, I think the lookout on the roof is not enough asymmetrically placed.
I have to keep on finding pictures of real baggage coaches,
to see if there are different kind used for the Orient Express.

Markus, and Kimball, thank you for talking about your unopened box models.
So the roof assembly looks be totally random .

If we do a sum of each of yours:
Roof centered upon window:
Markus:2 - Kimball:0
Roof not centered upon window:
Markus:1 - Kimball :2

Best Regards
Joël

Marklin HO - M track & C track - Analog mode - https://www.marklin-users.net/TrainIride - my channel : https://www.youtube.com/user/2mes2mains
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Offline TrainIride  
#6 Posted : 23 October 2016 21:31:28(UTC)
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TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,912
Location: FRANCE

Those tin-plates tend to rust a bit...


vieux_fourgon_ciwl.jpg



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Offline kiwiAlan  
#7 Posted : 23 October 2016 21:34:20(UTC)
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kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,104
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: TrainIride Go to Quoted Post

Those tin-plates tend to rust a bit...

vieux_fourgon_ciwl.jpg


oooh that is in a sorry state Crying Crying Crying Crying

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Offline TrainIride  
#8 Posted : 23 October 2016 21:38:46(UTC)
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TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,912
Location: FRANCE
An 8 doors model !


fourgon_ciwl_8portes.jpg
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Offline TrainIride  
#9 Posted : 23 October 2016 21:57:49(UTC)
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TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,912
Location: FRANCE
taken from the website wagons-lits-diffusion.com:

rames-ciwl-4.jpg


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Offline kimballthurlow  
#10 Posted : 24 October 2016 04:15:30(UTC)
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kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,668
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Joël

I have a HO scale model of the 8 door CIWL baggage, in tin plate.
It was made by Rateau (France) in the 1950s possibly for the brand name JEP.
It however, has two cupola.
Here is a picture.
http://www.qldrail.net/altkloster/rateau-1238-2.jpg

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline TrainIride  
#11 Posted : 27 October 2016 20:18:54(UTC)
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TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,912
Location: FRANCE
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Hi Joël

I have a HO scale model of the 8 door CIWL baggage, in tin plate.
It was made by Rateau (France) in the 1950s possibly for the brand name JEP.
It however, has two cupola.
Here is a picture.

regards
Kimball


Thank You Kimball,

Seems to be different kind of baggage coach roofs depending on prototype version...
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Offline TrainIride  
#12 Posted : 27 October 2016 20:20:40(UTC)
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TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,912
Location: FRANCE
Looks like a lovely S3/6 pulling CIWL somewhere in Europe....

orient_express_s3_6.jpg

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Offline TrainIride  
#13 Posted : 27 October 2016 20:23:46(UTC)
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TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,912
Location: FRANCE
And this eight doors one has the centered cupola....

LSMCIWLFourg.jpg
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Offline TrainIride  
#14 Posted : 27 October 2016 20:29:54(UTC)
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TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,912
Location: FRANCE
and another one with the uncentered cupola:

fourgon_CIWL.jpg


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Offline TrainIride  
#15 Posted : 27 October 2016 20:31:48(UTC)
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TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,912
Location: FRANCE
From the movie "Murder in the Orient Express" in the 70's


murder_on_the_orient_express.jpg
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Offline Markus Schild  
#16 Posted : 27 October 2016 20:32:32(UTC)
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Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,802
Location: Wurttemberg
Originally Posted by: TrainIride Go to Quoted Post
Looks like a lovely S3/6 pulling CIWL somewhere in Europe....




Hi,

This is 18 470 in 1928 near Westerstetten (between Stuttgart and Ulm) on the upper part of the Geislinger Steige. Photo by Carl Bellingrodt

Regards

Markus
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Offline TrainIride  
#17 Posted : 27 October 2016 20:34:05(UTC)
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TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,912
Location: FRANCE
Originally Posted by: Markus Schild Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TrainIride Go to Quoted Post
Looks like a lovely S3/6 pulling CIWL somewhere in Europe....




Hi,

This is 18 470 in 1928 near Westerstetten (between Stuttgart and Ulm) on the upper part of the Geislinger Steige. Photo by Carl Bellingrodt

Regards

Markus


Thank you so much Markus.

This picture is so nice !!

Best Regards
Joël
Marklin HO - M track & C track - Analog mode - https://www.marklin-users.net/TrainIride - my channel : https://www.youtube.com/user/2mes2mains
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Offline Markus Schild  
#18 Posted : 27 October 2016 20:46:28(UTC)
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Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,802
Location: Wurttemberg
Hi Joël,

In this thread yo see a 150 nearly at the same place than the S3/6 some decades later:

http://www.drehscheibe-o...oren/read.php?17,3311495

Hint: The forum has a redirection-feature. If you see the starting-page you must click on the link in the upper left part of the page.

Regards

Markus
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