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Offline mikemasey  
#1 Posted : 19 October 2016 23:26:11(UTC)
mikemasey

Australia   
Joined: 03/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 83
20161020_065922.jpg

Good morning all,

I am getting myself all tied up here trying to work out these signals.

I know that they are for speed restrictions with the start and finish indications(A and E) but I can not find any information on the numbered yellow triangle?

Can any one help please.

Thanks in advance.

Mike.
Offline Carim  
#2 Posted : 19 October 2016 23:39:09(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 652
Location: London
Hi Mike,

I believe that the yellow triangles represent temporary speed restrictions.

Carim
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Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 20 October 2016 07:52:38(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,262
Location: DE-NW
Hi!

The yellow triangles announce a temporary speed limit, the A indicates the start (about 500 m or so behind the triangle), the E indicates the end.
Typically the restriction will be for both directions and you will have A and E sandwiched together.

A triangle with "4" allows 40 km/h. The triangles with 40, 60, 80 look odd - they should be 4, 6, 8 instead.
Regards
Tom
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Offline Minok  
#4 Posted : 24 October 2016 20:20:41(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,311
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
My completely uneducated guess here is that the yellow A (for Anfang = start) signs, and thier associated triangles represent the speed beginning there representing 3=30kph, 4=40kph, etc. as others have mentioned. So I went an looked it up in the German signal book PDF....

Lf signs (Langsamfahrt = slow driving):
Temporary slow drive areas are in general indicated via the A and E signals Lf 2 (A on orange) and Lf 3 (E on white) (A: anfang=start, E:ende=end). The signals Lf1, Lf2, Lf3 are not permanently installed and are only placed at the request of the authority controlling that segment of the railroad.


Signal Lf 1 : Slow Speed Sign: "It follows a temporary slow-speed area, where the indicated speed is not to be exceeded."

The starting slow speed signage is confirmed in the DB signal book (www.bahnstatistik.de/Signale/SB-DB.pdf pg18 of 68 )
Capture.PNG

The A (orange, Lf2) and E (white, Lf 3) signs are apparently always placed back to back (so when heading into the restricted speed area, you see the A, and when exiting it in the other direction at that spot you see the E.

In contrast, the permanently installed speed restrictions...

Signal Lf 4 : Speed sign : "It follows a standing slow-speed area, where the indicated speed is not to be exceeded."
These speed signs are not always posted, and has some conditional descriptions of when it should be used.

This is also from the signal book, pg 19 of 68.
Capture.PNG

I am puzzled by the sample, with 2 digit values - as those as an Lf 4 would be super high speeds: eg 40 => 400km/h ?!
So I found, much further down in the signal book (pg 55 of 68), the 3 digit Lf 104 sign, under the deprecated signals section that starts on pg 53, and indicates these signals are no longer to be used with the start of the ESO 1959). So my guess is that before 1959, the 2 digit speeds were used of Lf 104, and after 1959 you should be using the 1 digit speeds of Lf 4. So maybe, depending on the era you are modeling one form or the other is correct. Though the deprecated (to be removed ) signs in that section all have dates for when they were "cancelled", bu this Lf 104 sign doesn't have a date... so that may mean ifs still allowed today?


There is a white A (Lf 5), that goes with the starting speeds indicated by the Lf 4 (white) speed triangles, and indicates that at THIS point the speed indicated by the triangular Lf 4 sign must have been attained (ie not that you start slowing by here, but you must already be at that speed at this point)
Toys of tin and wood rule!
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Offline mikemasey  
#5 Posted : 24 October 2016 22:36:43(UTC)
mikemasey

Australia   
Joined: 03/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 83
Minok,

thanks for that, I will have a look for the signal pdf.

I have been told that the four Black on white signs were for East German railways before the reunification.

I will be going for the tempory speed restrictions in an area with some track maintenance going on!

Mike.
Offline Minok  
#6 Posted : 24 October 2016 23:08:17(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,311
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: mikemasey Go to Quoted Post
Minok,

thanks for that, I will have a look for the signal pdf.

I have been told that the four Black on white signs were for East German railways before the reunification.

I will be going for the tempory speed restrictions in an area with some track maintenance going on!

Mike.


Yep... as I was walking to lunch and back I thought about what I'd written and was worried it was misleading. You got it right.
The temporary nature is not that the 'speed is temporarily reduced' but that there is a 'temporary adjustment' to the speed. That is, its used only for a limited time because something is going on, such as track or grounds work.

The white triangles with the wide black edge did look odd.. the DDR Reichsbahn may have used that... didn't look that up.

The only downsides with the PDF (other than technical german writing which is dense for anyone), is there is no image search, so when looking for a particular sign/signal you need to have an idea about the category its in and use the table of contents to look there first, or scroll down the document slowly and just watch the pictures fly by and hope to spot what your looking for.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
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Offline mikemasey  
#7 Posted : 25 October 2016 02:27:01(UTC)
mikemasey

Australia   
Joined: 03/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 83
Hi Minok,

Can I ask another question?

On French railways they have an "arret absolut"(a red and white check), You must stop here sign.

Is there an equivalent for the German rail system?

I have a short shuttle run with a VT95 Schienenbus comes to a halt and then returns to the other end and does the same. I would like to put an "you must stop here" sign up. I could use the French red and white check/ would this be appropriate?



Thanks for your assistance.

Mike.
Offline Minok  
#8 Posted : 25 October 2016 03:15:50(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,311
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: mikemasey Go to Quoted Post
Hi Minok,

Can I ask another question?

On French railways they have an "arret absolut"(a red and white check), You must stop here sign.

Is there an equivalent for the German rail system?

I have a short shuttle run with a VT95 Schienenbus comes to a halt and then returns to the other end and does the same. I would like to put an "you must stop here" sign up. I could use the French red and white check/ would this be appropriate?



Thanks for your assistance.

Mike.


I'm not familiar with the French signage and what the usage of the"stop absolute" is... but in the German document there are
form signals (and lights) for absolute stop (block aka do not enter, do not proceed) that are a white circle with a horizontal black line (or two red ) that can be used to close/shut down a track (see PDF pg 20):

Capture.PNG

As well as other safety-stop signals that are available. Capture.PNG


The platforms typically have an H sign that indicates to the locomotive operator where he is to stop the locomotive so that the cars are positioned properly along the platform. (pg 46)
Capture.PNG


I would think there is a sign that is intended for similar usage to the French one, but not knowing details of the sign... this is my best guesses.



Toys of tin and wood rule!
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My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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