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Offline Richard556  
#1 Posted : 24 May 2016 04:03:53(UTC)
Richard556

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 21
Location: New Zealand

I need some help around the design/prototype practice for the locomotive serving facility on my Marklin HO layout, and specifically whether in Europe during the steam era turntables were ever/typically used on their own without roundhouses or engine sheds.

My Marklin HO layout features a mainline running through a four-track station with a locomotive serving facility (Bw) with a 7286 turntable. I've installed the turntable and the two entry/exit tracks connecting it to the main (four track) station which have coal and water and sanding facilities which the locomotives can use before being turned on the turntable. That's all fine. However I'm having trouble with the design of the spoke tracks that will come off the turntable where locomotives can be parked. Space (as always) is limited. I can fit a three-stall (or possibly a six-stall roundhouse) in but it will only just fit. Alternatively, I can place 9-12 spoke tracks without a roundhouse or engine shed (using the 7.5 degree spacing) quite easily.

Call me unusual but I actually prefer the look of the turntable with spoke tracks *without* the roundhouse. Roundhouses take up a lot of room and a roundhouse squeezed into this space might overpower the layout as a whole (the idea of the layout is of a medium sized village - think Vollmer's "Neuffen" station where a double tracked mainline meets a branchline - in an otherwise rural/forested setting). Without the roundhouse there will be more spoke tracks to store more locomotives. I also prefer dispensing with the roundhouse because (a) you can actually see the locomotives you have parked, and (b) you can keep the track clean and deal with derailments more easily.

But what is more prototypical? In New Zealand (where I live) in the steam era turntables at stations without locomotive shed facilities were quite common (especially at the end of branch lines), but that is possibly because the locomotives might not have stayed at the station overnight (and we tended not to use tank locomotives for branch line work). However my research on the internet indicates that the German state railways had a requirement that 75% of locomotives needed to be stored in sheds during the steam era and I've looked at lots of photos of German locomotive serving facilities and the photos of turntables almost always include accompanying roundhouses.

What sort of activity (e.g. locomotives per day) would have justified a turntable and/or roundhouse in the steam era? I definitely want to include the turntable but wonder if I should water down the size of the coaling and other facilities so it fits with the theme of a medium sized village where a double tracked mainline meets a branchline.

Richard

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Offline RayF  
#2 Posted : 24 May 2016 10:47:27(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,486
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Very good questions!

I eagerly await an answer from someone who knows about these things... BigGrin

On my layout I have an extension area where I can plug in different modules, and I was considering building a module with a turntable. I wouldn't have space on this module for a roundhouse or even for more than one or two sidings beside the line that comes in to the turntable itself, but I was thinking about the possibility of having a low relief roundhouse with just the front modelled on the module, and fake entry tracks leading from the turntable.

Might this be a solution to your question?
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#3 Posted : 24 May 2016 14:39:20(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,592
Location: Southwesternmost
Even during the steam era, there have been "naked" turntables without a roundhouse (but at least with a water crane). Classic scenario would have been the end of a branch line.

However, this existed also at mainline stations. One example is Borken in Westphalia on the Winterswijk–Gelsenkirchen-Bismarck railway, where Dutch and German locos were exchanged. Furthermore, sometimes roundhouses destroyed during WW2 air raids were not re-built. Then, after the end of steam, roundhouses were sometimes torn down, while "uncovered" spoke tracks continued to be used by diesels or electrics. A good example is Wuppertal-Vohwinkel.

After WW2, there were two turntables.
2016-05-24_13-25-59.jpg

Turntable 2 did not have a roundhouse (1964 photo).
2016-05-24_13-27-17.jpg

And a 1967 photo.
b004-bw-ansicht4-1967wuppertal-vohwinkel.jpg

Then, the turntable 1 roundhouse was torn down at the end of the steam era (1972 photo).
2016-05-24_13-27-44.jpg
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#4 Posted : 24 May 2016 15:53:24(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,592
Location: Southwesternmost
It does not always have to be a roundhouse either.
2016-05-24_14-44-50.jpg
Stade on the Hamburg to Cuxhaven double-track line.

2016-05-24_14-39-00.jpg
And here a "simple" turntable between a double-track main line and a single track branch line (Germany, precise location unknown)
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Offline Richard556  
#5 Posted : 25 May 2016 10:53:10(UTC)
Richard556

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 21
Location: New Zealand
Thanks everyone for the replies - that's really useful - it seems a "naked" turntable is quite realistic, as is a turntable serving a smaller two-stall straight engine shed. Those prototype photos are really useful.

IMG_5719.JPG
IMG_5721.JPG
IMG_5711.JPG

I've tried to attach some photos here of my layout showing the Bw - any thoughts on might be realistic in terms of locomotive sheds and the coaling and other facilities would be appreciated. For example, I love the massive Faller coaling tower you see in the photos, but I am beginning to wonder if a smaller coaling stage with a crane and bucket (e.g. Faller 120147) might fit the overall layout better.

I've found that the turntable, just by itself, adds a lot of operating potential to a small station - trains come in from the double track mainline, the locomotive uncouples and either goes to the turntable to be turned and start a "return" journey or is replaced by another locomotive. Heaps of fun to be had!

Richard
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#6 Posted : 25 May 2016 13:27:16(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,592
Location: Southwesternmost
A similar discussion just happened in a parallel thread:
https://www.marklin-user...track-eraIIIa#post517303

Then the German MRR magazine "MIBA Spezial 69 - Bahn-Mekka Betriebswerk" offers a good overview.
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#7 Posted : 25 May 2016 13:30:02(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,592
Location: Southwesternmost
Very nice layout pix. I allow myself to post them inside the thread for ease of viewing.
2016-05-25_12-14-02.jpg2016-05-25_12-13-16.jpg2016-05-25_12-13-32.jpg
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#8 Posted : 25 May 2016 13:33:02(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,592
Location: Southwesternmost
Originally Posted by: Richard556 Go to Quoted Post
... it seems a "naked" turntable is quite realistic...
And note that on the 1964 and 1967 photos in post #3 above, there are two locos sitting on each spoke track, respectively.
:o)
Offline Alsterstreek  
#9 Posted : 25 May 2016 23:50:53(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,592
Location: Southwesternmost
Three further prototypical examples for turntables without roundhouse on main lines.

1) Kempten (Allgäu), Bavaria - naked turntable.
gleisplan-kempten.jpg

2) Buchloe, Bavaria - turntable with rectangular loco shed; in the 1930s a larger 23 m turntable was installed.
buchloe-ds-gp.jpg

3) Dueren, North Rhine-Westphalia - naked turntable without loco maintenance facility.
dueren-ds-gp.png

The turntable is (still) sitting in front of the station building (on the right hand side).
Bahnhof_Duren_Nordseite.jpg

Formerly at the end of three tracks, locos were turned around after being cut off from passenger trains (1965 photo).
1965-Sommer_Bf-Dueren_38-2962_Drehscheibe_RM.jpg
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#10 Posted : 27 May 2016 11:28:20(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,592
Location: Southwesternmost
Two more interesting variations of a naked turntable.

Wunstorf: Connected to the world via double slip switch.
2016-05-27_10-25-30.jpg

Location unknown - audacious rectangular loco shed trackage.
2016-05-27_10-24-35.jpg
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#11 Posted : 29 May 2016 00:09:50(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,592
Location: Southwesternmost
You believe this cannot be topped? It can: Naked turntable eating steep cliff.
vevey1ds.pngcevveveydrehscheibe_020518_gross.jpgam-121009-fotografierte-ich-drehscheibe-345367.jpg
Vevey, Switzerland.
:o)
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Offline Mark5  
#12 Posted : 07 January 2017 23:07:03(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,179
Location: Montreal
Hello Ladies and Gents,

We have been gone from the Forum for almost a year.... its been a busy one.
I have some serious reading to catch up.

This post caught our eye. ...My daughters and I really liked this configuration.

One of them asked "Where do the trains go to?"
So I explained its primarily for turning the locos and changing to one of the other tracks.
She then suggested that it would be really "cool" to store the trains in tunnels in the mountain instead of in a round house.
Now I am wondering if anything like that was ever made.

Happy New Year and peace in 2017!

- Mark
Interested in history of DB, DR and FS circa 1955 to 1965. Fan of signals, catenary, stations and yards.
Father of four girls running an exhibition layout, the Mädchenbahn--
https://www.marklin-user...rce.ashx?i=30519&b=1
Large version of my present avatar-- https://www.marklin-user...rce.ashx?i=29910&b=1
Source of previous avatar in "zoomify" detail-- http://bit.ly/1QqMgL0
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#13 Posted : 07 January 2017 23:36:05(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,592
Location: Southwesternmost
I can only offer a loco shed eating into an embankment on a branch line near Reutlingen. Used to have a turntable in front.
IMG_1876.jpg
www.uni-hohenheim.de
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#14 Posted : 07 January 2017 23:46:09(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,592
Location: Southwesternmost
And here the interpretation of another Maerklinista of the loco layover in tunnel topic.
Bw1philobiblon.jpgBw2Philobiblon.jpg
http://www.philobiblon.com/eisenbahn/current.shtml
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Offline Jabez  
#15 Posted : 09 January 2017 00:55:09(UTC)
Jabez

Belgium   
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 626
Location: Brussels
thanks, I really like that idea of loco sheds under the scenery to avoid the effect of a roundhouse overwhelming a small layout.
I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams
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Offline Bones  
#16 Posted : 15 December 2017 01:08:59(UTC)
Bones

Australia   
Joined: 15/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 56
Location: Queensland
Just as a matter of interest does anyone realise that the NSW government railways use both the tunnels at the start and end of the Bondi Junction line to store trains

First a bit of history, there were 2 attempts at building a railway line to Bondi Junction the first involved a line running via the city circle line that went through Museum and St James
stations and the second involved a totally different route because modern tunneling techniques allowed them to use a more direct and slightly steeper grade

The original line was terminated at St James because it was a make work scheme during the great depression and when WW2 started they simply didn't have the money to complete
the line

The second one also was terminated 3/4 of the way along the stretch along Bondi Road, and please remember the line is 90 mtrs below ground because of objections from toffs that
lived in the area this was abruptly terminated by the Wran government

There have been several attempts to complete the line to Bondi Beach but each time the gutless NSW politicians have piked on it

I believe that a site that was chosen to build the station has now been sold
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Offline SteamNut  
#17 Posted : 15 December 2017 13:42:20(UTC)
SteamNut

United States   
Joined: 11/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 472
Roundhouses were not used just to keep locomotives out of the weather but also to make repairs. That is why most pictures show the tender showing thru the door as the back of the of the roundhouse allowed more room to service the running gear. Just my two cents worth - Fred BigGrin
Offline Tom Jessop  
#18 Posted : 15 December 2017 20:36:36(UTC)
Tom Jessop

Australia   
Joined: 14/12/2002(UTC)
Posts: 810
Location: Newcastle NSW Australia


The Tunnels at Bondi Junction NSW were originally built with only 1 being laid with rails so that trains after being emptied of passengers could run down to the end & the driver would then change ends & bring his train out onto the return track for the next service . In about 2013 it was decided to lay tracks in the other tunnel bore & also cut a new bore between the 2 tracks at the arrival end of the platform so that there could be a faster turn round of train services in peak hour's by using either platform for terminating services . A double crossover was installed at the arrival end to enable either track to be used for terminating trains . Only 1 train could fit in either tunnel extension . A great loss of future expansion hit on the head by paper shufflers in power . Now days to get to Bondi Beach it's a case of train to Bondi Junction then change to bus's when back in the early 1900 thru to the early 60's we had a fantastic tram service all the way from the city . Paper bags of money from the bus makers & fuel companies convinced the government to rip out the trams & convert to bus's .
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Offline Purellum  
#19 Posted : 16 December 2017 02:55:47(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,213
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Why are the buildings called "roundhouse" and then "rectangular loco shed" ??

It should be roundhouse and squarehouse !! LOL

In Denmark many smaller stations had a small squarehouse and a turntable:

Squarehouse

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline Jimmy Thompson  
#20 Posted : 09 April 2019 22:51:34(UTC)
Jimmy Thompson

United States   
Joined: 26/03/2019(UTC)
Posts: 115
Location: Florida Classic but Successful Swampland City
And this one at Bhf Remscheid-Lennep (Wuppertal):

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

Fotos (2) Joachim Biemann

Jimmy
Analogue; M-track Inglenook; KLVM; Gauguin+Van Gogh; Wine Barrel Cars
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Offline hxmiesa  
#21 Posted : 10 April 2019 09:00:22(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,764
Location: Spain
You should just use a 2- or 3-stall parallel tracked "sqaurehouse" as mentioned. The old Märklin Magazin master Bernd Schmit did that on his final layout; the one of the Profi-Tips articles in the magazine...
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline 1borna  
#22 Posted : 16 April 2019 21:24:12(UTC)
1borna

Croatia   
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Location: Hrvatska
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Offline 1borna  
#23 Posted : 16 April 2019 21:30:37(UTC)
1borna

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