I'll not buy any 2013 items excepted a few coaches : 43204 and the sonorized 43252 (if the sound is good as I'll ask for a test in the shop)
I'll not buy Marklin Loco anymore excepted the one I booked to the train shop : 37981 with coaches ( this one never was made in Germany).
I'll focuse on former models produced before 2013. .

True,
it was a failed experiment, I don't think (or ever expect) that Marklin could ever go back, as they burned too many bridges:

1. Large C-Sine should probably have been kept as long-term in-house testing until it can be further improved to SDS final version.
2. Second generation Sine (Compact C-Sine - pre-SDS) was also released too early, receiving poor market feedback
3. SDS should've put emphasis on "optimized for Digital operations" -- after all, generally the market is in the phase of transition from "traditional" to Digital
4. Failure to streamline model lineup in line with the original Sinus development goal -- it was planned to power ALL Marklin models..
5. Failure to properly plan for mass-production over the long term, partly due to failure to achieve problem 4 as above.
6. Too much of Marklin's own budget was/ is still being absorbed with the development of its MFx system (intended to protect its perceived dominance of the shrinking AC market) <-- they should've gone DCC and save cost

Anyways, thanks to Marklin's decision making, we're now left with a large second hand market of models with far better motor setup than ANY new models that Marklin would ever produced, whose motor quality is in steady decline anyways.
And thanks to the perceived of no more support will be provided, those models will not cost an arm and a leg.

For SDS, we can still turn to ESU for decoder support... why bother with Marklin? They don't care anyways.

Motor-wise, SDS is a brushless motor -- it was designed to not ever requiring replacement.
Last resort: Sb-modellbau direct replacement Maxxon/faulhaber motor cost about 80 Euros.... Not bad, since Maxxon motors are actually almost as smooth as SDS.

Wait!
The many varieties of those el-cheapo motors are not in stock with Marklin anyways. They can change between two generations of the same model (BR218 is one example) and they will likely to fail more often.... since lowest cost is their primary priority...

That leaves Marklin customer with another question:
What's the difference between buying a more reliable, better performer SDS without not-so-enviable support and el-cheapo (supposedly) with support?

True and so I think 3 poles motors give the loco a smoother running and acceleration if the gear ratio high (1 turn of the wheel => very high number of turns of the motor pinion). A good flywheel also smoothes the running and acceleration. 3 poles motors have more difficult control requirements than motors with more poles (considering all the rest is similar).

I don't know if Maxon motors used by Brawa are 3 or 5 poles, but whatever they are the locos run smooth. The decoders are ESU and their locos use flywheels.

Brawa has Maxon motor 5 poles with single or double flywheels.
I use 2 rail locomotivs with Brawa models and they run good.
But 3 rail has better contact than what 2 rail does,because of difference with wheels contact on the rail.
With MM or and DCC on the 3 rail makes much better contact with the locomotivs,since all wheels on both rail has better contact while pickup shoe is laying on the stud contact which also makes better contact than what 2 rail can offers.
It´s all has to do with better motor and good decoder that makes big difference.

The pricing says everything.
Brawa builds to a standard; Marklin builds to a price.


This deleted post is restored by moderator.
Dear Mulldog lemon, restoring your deleted posts is a lot of work for the moderators, so please stop deleting your posts !!

Edited by moderator 29 March 2014 19:27:34(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Some are cheaper, but without doing a statistics I think most kept their prices.

I think the spare part costs for an SDS are about 120 Euro plus about 60 Euro for the driver PCB. The spare part costs for the new motors range from 15 Euro to 120 Euro (no driver PCB needed). Märklin's purchase prices are probably much lower than their spare part retail prices.

39010 with SDS: 399.95 Euro
39017 without SDS: 449.95 Euro => not the same price

37900 with compact C Sine, no sound: 209.00 Euro
37907 with sound, no SDS: 299.95 Euro

39180 with SDS: 269.95 Euro
37767 without SDS: 269.95 Euro

39640 with SDS: 299.95 Euro
39644 without SDS: 329.95 Euro => not the same price

39837 with SDS: 299.95 Euro
39840 without SDS: 299.95 Euro

And it was not just SDS to standard motor, there also was the transition from bell-shaped armature to standard motor.
Big Boy no longer runs as smooth as before, but kept the price.
Foumaro wrote that the new GG-1 is not as good as it used to be - but at least they reduced the price for that one.

Few of the models with ex SDS motor has been changed to replacement with new motor,which results to cost more.
Give up Tom!
Marklin did choised to stop with SDS motor for one reason and it´s too expensive!

Yes, I'm not sure why some of you feel so strongly against MFX. I really like the convenience of having the loco register itself. It takes away a lot of the work of entering locos into my MS2.

I change the trains on my small layout about once a week, and I run 4-5 locos on the layout, so I rely on the MFX to do the registration where it is available. For those that don't have MFX I choose the loco from the database if it is originally a digital loco, or keep the details on locomotive cards for those locos that I've converted myself. MFX means I don't have to hunt trhrough menus to get a loco on my list.

Hi Anders. You'll find the same problems and questions come up whatever system or manufacturer you decide on.

If I were you I would buy a couple of AC locos and run them for a while to see if you like the experience. You can always sell them and go back to 2 rail if you don't enjoy it!

Anders, you are right, absolutely !
But there is another reason (which has been reported to me by someone from Marklin about 2 years ago) .
The second reason is :
Marklin does not want - and never wanted - to depend on a single engine supplier. They have always taken care about it.
Depending on a single engine manufacturer puts them in a vulnerable position: out of stock risk - temporarily or definitively - due to the manufacturer. Manufacturer's unilateral decision to increase the price of motors, to modify specifications, etc. .... etc. ...
They absolutely insist on having multiple sources of supply . It's very important for them.

Marklin decoders have been designed to be used with specific Marklin motors, so their regulation settings are set for these and no adjustment should be required. The more common cv's, such as acceleration delay, braking delay, maximum speed, sound volume, etc, are adjustable through the loco setup menu on your CS or MS

Understandably, ESU decoders which could be used in any number of diffrent motor configurations have the complete range of cv's accesible

Okey...i can try with Marklin again.
But i´m not return back to 2 rail.

Excuse me everybody, IMHO the very last versions of MFX decoders are pretty good. ( since about mid 2011)
We have to remember one thing : by comparison with other train manufacturers, full Digital Marklin models are much less expensive than other manufacturers.Other manufacturers have to deal with other Brands of decoder. Marklin has its own types of decoder...

The only difference between Marklin decoders and ESU/Zimo DCC decoders is about their versatility: ESU's &Zimo's decoders offer many many accesses to tuning because they have to deal with the DCC world = wider variety of models from different Brands . Which is not the case for Marklin.

PS : I haven't read Ray's and Goofy's posts before I wrote mine. We are saying almost the same...sorry.

Edited by user 20 December 2013 12:15:33(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Does this work on a Marklin controller? I think they don't have railcom.

One possible solution is to change all your locomotives to DCC decoders and control everything with an ESU controller, but for me that would represent a huge expense and waste of time and money already spent on Marklin controllers and decoders which would be redundant. Marklin is the main focus of the hobby for me so I would rule railcom out, when Marklin's MFX does the same thing and already comes in most new locos.

However, the choice is there for those who want it.

Haven't logon since two days ago...



I wrote down the spare part price for Sinus motors a few years ago...
You can still search them too on Google, some dealers still have them in stock.

214168 Large Sinus motor + Decoder (Re460-specific) = 160 Eur (incl VAT)

230592 SDS motor for ALL 4-axle pwrd locos = 60 Eur (incl VAT) -- some dealers still have it for 40 Eur
213479 SDS motor for steamers /2-axle pwrd loco = 96 Eur (incl VAT) -- I think it used to be 80 Eurs, but Marklin price went up in the last year
102375 PCB SDS for BR218 (model specific part) = 90 Eur (incl VAT)



The answer is simple...
Firstly, everything that MFx can do, DCC can always do it better. Matt has highlighted some of these on his posts above.. Loco auto-register? Railcom Plus can do it in a matter of seconds...

Secondly, as already mentioned above too, customers will also be isolated by the plethora of more options available in the DCC world.
A few years down the line, DCC users will look at MFx, and laugh.... "So Marklin MFx can only do that much? In this day and age? LoL!"

Additional comment to the previous:
MFx was not a proven technology when it was first introduced in 2005/6.
The fact is the first MFx decoders are made by ESU - there were some kinks at first. But after ESU fixed them, Marklin decided to go alone with it..
... which create more bugs...
I haven't bought any new Marklin so far, but it look like from what everyone posted, they have finally got it right.
So not unlike other Marklin "innovations", customers again become guinea pigs for their long winded experiment, until they got it right.
... that leaves a sour taste for many...
End of Additional Comments

Finally, a quick review for business strategy wise...

Which one would be cheaper, more innovative, and would provide a better result?

Create a new look-a-likey system to DCC from scratch, then painstakingly try to compete feature-to-feature with DCC.....(and still lose out)
...OR....
Create Marklin DCC+ by adding interesting features that are exclusively Marklin...

Marklin DCC+ would have less bugs to deal with, as it is based on proven technology, unlike Marklin MFx from 2006 - 2009 period
they would also have been cheaper to manufacture (arguably cheaper vs MFX adventure),
if they make enough innovation, they can compete to make inroads against Zimo, ESU, or other brands,
M* DCC+ can also place their Trix DC brand better...

... and to top it off, Marklin DCC+ would still be the dominant decoder in Marklin world.... since unlike DC loco, every AC loco will need to come with decoder by default.

Hi,

This topic is growing fast and it is hard for me to read it all. I hope in the next days I will.

Just want to say that although Braw* locos run great and look superb, the plastics they use are cheap (although they price high their models). Also a not so good thing I noticed in some of the models of that brand is the painting. The colors seem good, but sometimes the paint disappear. I don't know if it is due to bad cleaning before the painting or if they don't let the paint dry enough or what else.

I don't know if it was already done before, but I would like a pool in this forum for election of the preferred motor. I will vote for SDS.

Hasn´t Marklin mfx decoder become better today than for 7 years ago?
I did tested Marklins first generation CS1 and mfx decoder and there was some bugs.
Today i have seen new locomotivs with 3 pole motor and flywheel works good and mfx decoder today works good too.

I do not have any of the older mfx models to compare with the newer models I have, but I must say I am very pleased with the new ones, they seem to be very reliable, offer excellent running characteristics, and are very easy to setup. There is definitely something to be said for putting a new loco on the track and having it set up automatically with all the icons, functions and being good to go.

As far as the three pole motors go, I prefer the high quality motors that need no service, or the traditional replaceable brush types rather the throw away types being used in some of the models today. My BR 94, from what I have learned, has one of the disposable types, but it is a fantastic model with great sound and operating qualities, so no regrets. If the motor ever wears out, I guess thirty Euro's is not too much to pay for a new one...

Gordon

Well, this is totally off topic...

The biggest "scam" was when Germany went to the Euro as a currency instead of Deutsche Mark.

Suddenly, the models cost almost the same number in Euros as they did in Marks... Which meant almost a doubled price...

But Märklin were not alone to see this opportunity...
Roco - who used to cost about half to 2/3rds the Märklin price, suddenly upped their price level to "Märklin prices" too in Euros...

No comments needed on this off-topic post, but high prices vs quality & production costs are decided by management - and
if there are more bean counters in management than guys who know the basic values of a brand, quality will suffer...

Apropos value of the brand.

"Jetzt geht es darum, den guten Ruf von Märklin wiederherzustellen. Das ist aber eine Marathonstrecke. Im Moment sind wir erst bei der Hälfte angekommen." (Michael Sieber, Chef von Märklin)
Source:
http://www.br.de/nachric...nachtsgeschaeft-100.html

Google translation: "The task now is to restore the reputation of Märklin. But this is a marathon. At the moment we only arrived at the half."

I'm afraid they have accomplished less than half of the task. And the new motors are IMHO a giant leap in the wrong direction.

Yes, they don't. Unhappy customers may not come back. The majority is (still) happy with the new motors and increased profits from the remaining customers may compensate the loss of unhappy customers, but cheap motors that turn some customers away from Märklin may not be the very best idea for a company that wants to grow - at least not in the long run.

There is some Brawa models has 3 pole motor and flywheel and they works excellent too with three rail track.
I did had once Brawa T3 for two rail,but it was bad contact with wheels on the track!!
So Brawa use cheap motor too.

I don't know how many poles the famous E 17 from 2011 has. It could be the first three-pole Insider model of this century. BR 403/404, BR 56.2-8, and BR 58.10-21 are other three-pole candidates.

The majority is happy with the new motors.
A minority was unhappy about the new trains because they are only almost as good as the older trains - and now they have the answer why.

And when a Märklin model with a RRP of 280 Euro drives worse than a Piko model for around 120 Euro, then Piko is a candidate for a growing share of my MRR budget.
A metal body is only a secondary virtue for me, motor and gear come first.

No, not on any Marklin controller as per the condition Marklin sold them in. Obviously the Ecos does, and the CS1 does, but only if the CS1R software is applied (still waiting for mine!), and you use an Ecosboost booster, as the CS1/CS1R does not have the required hardware to support Railcom.

Why has this thread not been merged with the "3 pole motors" thread? The same information is appearing in both!

Talk about repetition!