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Offline H0  
#1 Posted : 18 September 2011 23:22:45(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,505
Location: DE-NW
Hi all!

We all (should) know that not all Märklin coaches are made in 1:87 length scale.

I took some pictures to illustrate this.

Here's a picture of five coaches with a prototype length of 26.4 metres (UIC standard length):
All coaches have a prototype length of 26.4 m
Here we have:
  • 24 cm class (1:110)
  • 1:100 class (26.4 cm)
  • 27 cm class (~1:97.8)
  • 28.2 cm class (~1:93.6)
  • 1:87 (30.3 cm (a Trix model, but announced from Märklin))



Here's a picture of five coaches with a prototype length greater than 26.4 metres:
Coaches with a prototype length greater 26.4 m
Here we have:
  • 27.5 m dining car, 24 cm class (~1:115)
  • 27.5 m dining car, 27 cm class (~1:102)
  • 27.5 m dining car, 28.2 cm class (~1:97.5)
  • 26.8 m double stock coach, 1:100 class (26.8 cm)
  • 27.3 m double stock control car, 1:100 class (27.3 cm)

The wooden bar indicates the prototypical length of the dining car.


Even shorter models came in shortened versions:
Different length scales used with short coaches
The old "Donnerbüchsen" were only 11.5 cm long (scale 1:121) while the new models are 16 cm long (1:87).


Here the side-view of the "Donnerbüchsen":
Donnerbüchsen
The old coaches have oversized lettering, so the prototype length is given as "13,9 m" while the new models are marked as "13,92 m" along with more information.


Here's a picture with 4 Am/Aüm coaches:
Four Am/Aüm coaches
From top to bottom: Märklin 24 cm class, 27 cm class, 28.2 cm class, Roco 1:87
Please note that the coaches have varying prototypes, two have one-piece doors (with large windows), two have folding doors (with small windows).
Please note that the two short models only have 8 compartments while the long ones and the prototype have 10 compartments.

All coaches are lying with gangway to the camera. After I took the picture, I noticed that the frame details of the 27 cm coach were turned around - so I turned the coach and took another picture:
One coach turned around

A closer look at the frame from below:
Märklin 27 cm, 28.2 cm, Roco 30.3 cm
The frame of the Roco car is very detailed (bottom). The Märklin 27 cm car looks very similar (top), but nothing is printed or coloured. The Märklin 28.2 cm coach is in the middle (no comment).

The rear end of the coaches makes a difference with the last coach in the train. Here's a picture:
Märklin 24 cm, 27 cm, 28.2 cm, Roco 30.3 cm
Märklin 24 cm coach: red rear lights are painted on, no window pane in the door windows.
Märklin 27 cm coach: painting the red rear lights is left as an exercise to the customer, no window pane in the door windows.
Märklin 28.2 cm coach: red windows for rear lights (can be made operational), window pane in the door windows.
Roco 30.3 cm coach: red windows for rear lights (can be made operational), window pane with coloured frame in the door windows, printed information.

A picture that allows comparison of the model window heights:
Height comparison
This picture also allows comparison of the interior details.
Roco (right or bottom respectively) seems to have the correct shape, details are coloured.
Märklin 28.2 cm class (next): no comment.
Märklin 27 cm class (next): shape seems correct, but details are not coloured.
Märklin 24 class (top): interior does not really match the compartment windows.

And one for width comparison:
Width comparison

Peeping through the windows (Märklin 24 cm class):
Märklin 24 cm
Three seats where there should be six, compartment door not showing.

Peeping through the windows (Märklin 27 cm class):
Märklin 27 cm
Sorry, picture is not too good (maybe I'll try again). Also see side-by-side picture above

Peeping through the windows (Märklin 28.2 cm class):
Märklin 28.2 cm
No comment.

Peeping through the windows (Roco 1:87):
Roco 1:87 (30.3 cm)
You can see the coloured ventilation grill on the compartment door.

Märklin has mixed different length scales in several sets.
Maybe I'll take some pictures of such mixed sets to compare how they look side by side.


Update (June 1, 2014):
Märklin advertise their ICE 3 in the catalogue with the words "Scale length for 1:87".
When they sued Piko for plagiarism, they filed at court that both the Märklin ICE 3 and the Piko ICE 3 have a length of 1:88.8, a width of 1:88.57, a distance between pivot points of 1:92.8 and a height of 1:87.
Some details on the trucks are 1:100 with both models.
The product database still shows the "1:87" symbol for the ICE 3. It's too short by about two centimetres - the difference is way too small to be noticed with bare eyes, but length is rather 1:89 than 1:87 (along with various other compromises).

Edited by user 01 June 2014 10:36:26(UTC)  | Reason: Information about ICE 3.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline David Dewar  
#2 Posted : 18 September 2011 23:42:52(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 6,738
Location: Scotland
Hi Tom. Many thanks for most interesting pics and information. Although they may not be to scale I prefer the smaller coaches as look much better on the layout. The windows etc do not bother me but I would like to see a better interior.

dave
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline GSRR  
#3 Posted : 19 September 2011 00:03:21(UTC)
GSRR

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,339
Location: USA
Tom,

Great post, very helpful.


r/Thomas


ETE UserPostedImage ECoS iTrain TouchCab C-Gleis German Era Id & IIIb USA Era IIIb SBB Era III SJ Era IV GC Era V
Offline xxup  
#4 Posted : 19 September 2011 00:03:25(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 8,944
Location: Australia
Nice work Tom.. It shows the differences in a very clear way.. We only have one true 1:87 passenger car from ACME, but it can't run on our layout as the center section of the coach catches on mountains, track supports and other things on our small layout.. So I understand the reasoning behind the adoption of the shorter length coaches..
Adrian
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Offline MikeK  
#5 Posted : 19 September 2011 00:15:13(UTC)
MikeK

Denmark   
Joined: 15/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 162
Hi Tom,

Thank you for that post, you can really see/understand the difference with your pictures - I start to worry if those "double decker" cars will fit on Juniors layout when we get them (we ordered a set each)...

^__^
MikeK
A single track on the floor is better than no track at all...
Offline kimballthurlow  
#6 Posted : 19 September 2011 00:18:37(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 5,846
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Tom,

Thanks for that, you have put a lot of effort into those photos and descriptions.

It highlights what is often a struggle for myself, and for some modellers.
In my younger days, I could build models that were perfect scale, and stress over whether it had 8 windows or 10.

Do you take it all seriously, and attempt to build museum quality models and layout?
Or do you accept that the model makers do what they do for practical reasons, and just enjoy your model trains (toys)?

Well for a start, I don't work for a museum, nor do I run one.

As Adrian says, it is easy to understand why the manufacturers might opt for shorter coaches, as that is most practical for running home layouts and playing trains.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
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Offline Marty  
#7 Posted : 19 September 2011 00:47:35(UTC)
Marty

United States   
Joined: 29/05/2008(UTC)
Posts: 272
Location: USA
Thanks for posting this, Tom. I thought I'd point out that liberties with scale are not just made by model railroad manufacturers: When I visited Disneyland for the first time, I liked the replica of "Main Street America", but since I grew up in a town with a main street just like it, I couldn't figure out why it still looked a little different from the real thing. Only later did I find out that the structures are made at 3:4 scale. But it still looks great, and I don't think too many vistors there are complaining about that fact!BigGrin Sorry if this is a bit off topic...
Marty
Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 19 September 2011 00:57:21(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,505
Location: DE-NW
Model rail road is full of compromises.
I think the new 28.2 cm coaches are one step forward (correct number of compartments) and three steps backward (poor interior details, poor printing quality, poor details below the frame); none of this is visible with the train running on the layout.

A while ago I bought a Roco train set with those Aüm coaches. Since then I wanted to make this comparison since I also had Märklin's Aüm coaches in three different lengths.

At a club meeting not long ago, I saw a 27 cm coach on the first track and a 26.4 cm coach on the second track - and I was surprised how much I noticed these 6 mm (1/4") difference - and I knew that both prototype coaches had the same length. This was the inspiration to show those other pictures.
I was surprised to find so many different length scales. And the list is incomplete because locos and powered rail cars are not yet included (the length scale of the new My World ICE could set a new record in that respect).

I'll keep the coaches I have (from 24 through 30.3 cm).

I know that many Märklin fans still use their 24 cm coaches - some even prefer them. The destination board on the 24 cm coach can easily be read - much better than that on the 28.2 cm coach.
I prefer close couplers so 26.4 cm is my personal minimum.

In another thread we had the question what it looks like if coaches of different length scales are mixed in trains. This was another reason for this thread. When I find the time, I'll also look at other types beside the Aüm (but I only have one or two different length scales for other types of coaches).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#9 Posted : 19 September 2011 07:35:13(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 5,846
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Model rail road is full of compromises.
..... When I find the time, I'll also look at other types beside the Aüm (but I only have one or two different length scales for other types of coaches).


Yes, Tom and at this point you are only comparing the lengths.

A comparison of heights and widths MAY reveal that ALL are 1:87, as these measurement criteria do not effect the running ability of models.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 19 September 2011 10:05:09(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,505
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
A comparison of heights and widths MAY reveal that ALL are 1:87, as these measurement criteria do not effect the running ability of models.
No, they do affect the running abilities of models.
Different looks and different running behaviours. We can choose what we buy so we must know what's available.

With all those new longer coaches and trains, Märklin includes warnings in the catalogue/product database such as:
"The cars are reproduced with scale length, and the minimum radius of 360 mm / 14-3/16" for operation requires a wide loading gauge. There are limits to the operation of these cars with this radius in the area of bridge railings, catenary masts, tunnel portals, etc." (from Märklin 43597)
And reversing curves have a minimum radius of 400 mm (but that's only mentioned in the leaflet that comes with the coaches).

I haven't mentioned the pivot points yet. With Märklin's 27 and 28.2 cm coaches, pivot points have been moved towards the centre of the train (pivot point is not in the centre of the truck). This reduces the overhanging towards the centre of the curve while increasing the overhanging towards the outside.
Therefore the extra inch of 1:87 coaches along with the prototypically correct pivot points leads to a bigger increase of overhanging towards the centre of the circle.
Makes a big difference for those who already built a layout
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline river6109  
#11 Posted : 19 September 2011 11:04:47(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,577
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Tom,

Thanks for the detailed differences in length and other noticeable features.
Another point I like to make comparing Marklin with Roco, sometimes Marklin has produced a dining car but inserted the same interior as a 2nd or 1st class carriage or the seating arrangements between 1st and 2nd class did not alter.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline mike c  
#12 Posted : 19 September 2011 13:39:38(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,371
Location: Montreal, QC
I find it most frustrating when trying to put together a consist that you end up with, for example, when creating an international consist, with DB UIC-X compartment coaches (Maerklin) and FS UIC-X coaches (Trix) in the new 1:93.5, combined with a SBB Diner (43391) and lightsteel coaches in 1:87. The fact that not all coaches are done in the same scale is irritating.
I would much rather prefer to assemble a consist from other brands (Roco, ACME, LSM, RailTop, etc) where I know that the scale is standard, and I can assemble the train without having any mismatches.

Small compromises, ie the restaurant coach being rendered at the same length as the other coaches, are acceptable.

I love being able to combine the Maerklin lightsteel coaches with my Lima EWI, Roco EWII and other SBB Coaches. For example, I am running my 39420 and 39421 with Maerklin's lightsteel coaches and RailTop pilot coaches.
I also like the 1:93 International consists. For example, I was recently running the 43858 and 43927 Beethoven Sets as the IC Metropolitano with an additional Roco 44201 and 44227 as SBB coaches (also 1:93) behind the Re 6/6 from the 37320 Set.

This new policy of Maerklin's has it's advantages and it's drawbacks. It makes for some better and for some worse consists. I don't know if I would prefer to have them choose one scale length and stick with it (1:93). I think that they should make it more clear which models are reduced and which are exact scale, so that modellers would be better able to determine which coaches can be intermingled and which may be better on their own or with other similar coaches.

Either way, we make the best of it and try to work around the limitations. If Maerklin does come out with a red model of the SBB WRm (from the Bavaria Set), that might go a long way to helping to solve the coach issue set out in the first paragraph.:)

Regards

Mike C
Online applor  
#13 Posted : 20 September 2011 02:44:25(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,394
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I buy Marklin whenever possible unless they are not the correct length. I only run ultra wide radius so I don't have limitations there.

The only shortened Marklin model I have is the 39080 insider VT 08.5 since there was no suitable alternative that I was happy with.
It is 1:93.5 so it is not too bad.

Love the look of the full length 26.4m roco coaches.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
Offline hxmiesa  
#14 Posted : 20 September 2011 15:39:53(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,722
Location: Spain
This is a topic of maximum interrest! (Thanks Tom)
I own several 24, 26,4 and 27cm waggons (All M.)
I own no 28.2 waggons, although I can well understand the users who need the R1 compatability!

After aquiering a rake of 30.3cm waggons (from Rivarossi of all things...) I definatly want to change to this scale. As I need to change all my german epoc IV material anyway AND have NO R1 curves on my main line, I think that will be the best for me.

I think that the "new" 28.2cm coaches are the perfect compromise of R1 compatibility AND the correct number of windows. -But seeing as the waggons are only a little longer than the 27cm ones, I would have preferred that M. went directly to exact 1:87 scale. Oh well, within another 25 years they probably will, and so will again be able to sell "the same" waggons to their costumers... ;-)

Edited by user 21 September 2011 15:29:04(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline kimballthurlow  
#15 Posted : 20 September 2011 22:08:16(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 5,846
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
....
M. went directly to exact 1:87 scale. Oh well, within another 25 years they probably will, and so will again be able to sell "the same" waggons to their costumers... ;-)


Oh well, Henrik, at least they will still be in business. Pretty smart when you think about it. BigGrin

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
Offline klarinettmeister  
#16 Posted : 20 September 2011 22:29:03(UTC)
klarinettmeister

Sweden   
Joined: 13/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 737
Location: Kirseberg
It´s a very interesting topic. In Sweden there have been mixed green and blue cars in trains. Using Märklin cars it looks ridicilous as the blue cars are 1:100 (24,3 cm) and the green panorama coaches from set 26727 are 26,4 cm.

It´s really disturbing having cars of different scale. And I think it´s more dusturbing that Märklin produces their cars in longer and longer versions which makes you have to buy the same model type several times. I also think Märklin should go directly to the 1:87 scale. They could have different versions of some models in let´s say 1:100. My ICE 3 is in 1:87 and it looks really good.
Offline ricky  
#17 Posted : 20 September 2011 22:45:22(UTC)
ricky


Joined: 07/06/2011(UTC)
Posts: 313
Location: California
Very interesting article Tom! Thank you! Cool

I have a question: do you have both wide and regular radii switches? It would be interetsing to take pictures of 2 cars in the switches, to compare the intervals between the cars depending on their length.

I know it's a bit of work, you might not have the time to do all this...

Cheers,
Ricky Smile
Offline kimballthurlow  
#18 Posted : 20 September 2011 23:28:09(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 5,846
Location: Brisbane, Australia
A mix of replies here seem to suggest to me, that Marklin are simply evolving their production and marketing to suit changing tastes or "demands".

In that light, it would be difficult for them, for example, to say the their models WILL be 1:93.5 or whatever.

Those of us who can't stand the mix of different lengths, will have to swallow our pride, or just not buy the models.

I don't like mixed lengths of the same model in a train, but if it is a different model, I don't think anyone would notice.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
Offline H0  
#19 Posted : 21 September 2011 09:49:23(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,505
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: klarinettmeister Go to Quoted Post
Using Märklin cars it looks ridicilous as the blue cars are 1:100 (24,3 cm) and the green panorama coaches from set 26727 are 26,4 cm.
The coaches in the 26727 set are 1:100 (they'd be 30.3 cm in 1:87).
The so-called "-3yg" and "-4yg" Umbauwagen are made in 1:87 while the older Silberlings are 1:100. Märklin sold these together in train sets.
The 27 cm Rheingold coaches (era II) are 1:87 while the shorter 26.4 cm models actually represent longer prototypes.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline SA-Marklin-Guy  
#20 Posted : 22 September 2011 03:59:39(UTC)
SA-Marklin-Guy


Joined: 20/09/2011(UTC)
Posts: 14
Location: Markham, Ontario
Hi Tom.

Earlier, you mentioned that the Trix model coach, announced by Marklin, is 303mm in length and therefore a true 1:87 representation.

I am just curious to know the sharpest Marklin curved track it can take. Is radius 2 curved track the sharpest it can take?

Keith Lailann - Toronto, Canada.
Offline GG1 Fan  
#21 Posted : 22 September 2011 04:22:33(UTC)
GG1 Fan


Joined: 30/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 665
Location: Stamford, CT USA
Wonderful thread!

Fantastic pictures, detail and write-up.

Those old Marklin Tin-Plate, to me, have that 'real' feel to them.

Regards,
Paul
Offline nevw  
#22 Posted : 22 September 2011 06:14:05(UTC)
nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,004
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
SO to kill any arguments carriages do not HAVE to be 303mm to be true 1:87 representation of the prototype. Depending on the length of the carriage the true scale length can be any length.
SO given then it could happen that a 303mm Carriage could be a 1:93 or something else scale of the protype
Wonderful.

Puts a different slant on the old debates that ALL carriages HAD to be 303mm in length to be true 1:87 scale
NN
wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
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H0
Offline H0  
#23 Posted : 22 September 2011 09:32:41(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,505
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: SA-Marklin-Guy Go to Quoted Post
Earlier, you mentioned that the Trix model coach, announced by Marklin, is 303mm in length and therefore a true 1:87 representation.
Minimum radius is 360 mm, minimum radius for reversing curves is 400 mm (that's what the leaflet says, I only tested them on R2/R3 - review to come).

And Nev is right: prototype coaches have different lengths.
The era II Rheingold coaches are about 27 cm long - and they are 1:87. And even shorter coaches can be 1:87. OTOH some coaches will be longer than 303 mm if made in 1:87 (dining cars and modern doublestock coaches).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Macfire  
#24 Posted : 22 September 2011 11:07:32(UTC)
Macfire


Joined: 04/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,652
Location: New Zealand
Tom - thanks for a fantastic thread.
Really interesting.
As a matter of interest I had the 43929 Hans Sachs set and placed next to my 40*** metal coaches.
Wow that was some difference.
Result: The Hans Sachs went down the road, not that I was dissapointed with them, on the contrary I loved them being the first close coupled passenger consist we owned. No I sold them as I was rationalising my passenger collection.

Nice to see such positive comments about individual tastes from everyone and not one killjoy comment ThumpUp
Lord Macca
New Zealand branch of Clan Donald.
Offline MarioFabro  
#25 Posted : 22 September 2011 15:20:07(UTC)
MarioFabro

United States   
Joined: 16/10/2001(UTC)
Posts: 793
Location: Pittsburgh,
Thanks for the thread Tom.

Beside radius issues, there is also another point that makes me prefer shorter coaches, miimum 1:93.5 if not 1:100. I want to run on my lay-out closer to prototypical length trains (at least 5 to 6 coaches)an this makes trains ~2m long. This means my stations (I am still planning two of them) become quite long (with entry-exit switches etc. apporx. 3m). So, if the choice is one fewer coach or shorter coaches, I prefer the second option. I am in the process, for example, of aquiring HAG swiss IC 2000 double-stock cars (length 282) and replace my Roco cars (length 303). In this train, you need at least 5-6 coaches as they have quite a variation (there is a baggage end-car, a first class, a second class, a restaurant/buffet car and an end cab-control car).
UserPostedImageUserPostedImageUserPostedImageEra IV-VI --- "If you have brains you love trains" or "When I grow up, I will play with trains"
Offline hxmiesa  
#26 Posted : 22 September 2011 17:39:09(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,722
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: nevw Go to Quoted Post
SO to kill any arguments carriages do not HAVE to be 303mm to be true 1:87 representation of the prototype. Depending on the length of the carriage the true scale length can be any length.
SO given then it could happen that a 303mm Carriage could be a 1:93 or something else scale of the protype
Wonderful.
Puts a different slant on the old debates that ALL carriages HAD to be 303mm in length to be true 1:87 scale

Well, yes... Of course!!!
I would say that, THAT goes without saying, but of course; technically you are right! LOL
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline RayF  
#27 Posted : 22 September 2011 19:33:57(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,440
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: MarioFabro Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for the thread Tom.

Beside radius issues, there is also another point that makes me prefer shorter coaches, miimum 1:93.5 if not 1:100. I want to run on my lay-out closer to prototypical length trains (at least 5 to 6 coaches)an this makes trains ~2m long. This means my stations (I am still planning two of them) become quite long (with entry-exit switches etc. apporx. 3m). So, if the choice is one fewer coach or shorter coaches, I prefer the second option. I am in the process, for example, of aquiring HAG swiss IC 2000 double-stock cars (length 282) and replace my Roco cars (length 303). In this train, you need at least 5-6 coaches as they have quite a variation (there is a baggage end-car, a first class, a second class, a restaurant/buffet car and an end cab-control car).


I agree totally, Mario. My layout is even tighter than that, so I'm very limited to length. I can just manage a 4 coach train of 27cm coaches. 30+ cm coaches restricts me to just 3.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline ricky  
#28 Posted : 22 September 2011 19:56:57(UTC)
ricky


Joined: 07/06/2011(UTC)
Posts: 313
Location: California
Even if you have a warehouse for your layout and super wide curves, the switches become the problem with long passenger cars. The longer the uglier when they turn on the switches. Even the wide switches are way too short compared to reality. Just out of curiosity, go to Google Earth and measure the switches in a station, where the speed limit is 30 km/hr, the switch radius is much much wider than even the widest radius you can find in HO Märklin, and I believe even in any brand.

In my opinion the long cars look great on shelves, not so much on a layout.

Cheers,
Ricky Smile
Offline Webmaster  
#29 Posted : 22 September 2011 20:51:24(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 10,846
I remember when I was a kid, I felt the 4029 CIWL sleeper was a "smaller scale" in all directions than the rest of the coaches...

Since I have very limited space, I prefer shorter coaches - I rather have 5 1:100 scale length ones than 4 1:87 ones. Steam locos look "better" with shorter coaches in my opinion too... I'm a "playing" guy, not really into the correct scale or detail thing, so I just want it to "look good" from my perspective - For me, wagons are something you have to hook up behind a good looking loco so it looks complete - keeps me happy...BigGrin

Great comparison, Tom! ThumpUp
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
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Offline Rinus  
#30 Posted : 22 September 2011 21:19:14(UTC)
Rinus


Joined: 20/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,662
Location: Wageningen, The Netherlands
Interesting topic!

Switched to 1:87 scale myself several years ago, not regreted it ever since. The range to choose from is so much larger. Modelling railroads is all about dealing with compromises. Scale of your rolling stock is one of them.

Cheers,

Rinus

Offline intruder  
#31 Posted : 22 September 2011 22:44:15(UTC)
intruder

Norway   
Joined: 16/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 5,532
Location: Akershus, Norway
Thanks, Tom.

Very interesting information. My longest coaches are 27 cm. They could not any longer on my planned layout. I actually prefer shorter ones. I think it looks better.
Best regards Svein, Norway
grumpy old sod
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Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#32 Posted : 01 June 2014 11:31:15(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,041
I've missed this post before, many of the points I suspected or roughly new about but it's great to see the comparisons and photos. Thank you for the great post Tom.
Alex
Offline kokomo  
#33 Posted : 01 June 2014 17:01:22(UTC)
kokomo

Argentina   
Joined: 28/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 75
Hi!
Being, until not long ago, a Lima collector mostly. I always found the length of their passenger cars acceptable. Saying this while being unaware of "shorter" than real 1:87 length, and always with the belief that they were really prototypical.

This is the Dome Rheingold, taken from a 1980 catalog, where you can see from the length that it most closely is 1:100 than 1:87.

My opinion: I'd value "usability" (for not using the term playability) rather than "authenticity". I do not mind 2 or 3 less cm in length if it still resembles quite well the real thing.
kokomo attached the following image(s):
dome.jpg
Modeling Central European trains. Eras III, IV and V
Mostly UserPostedImage UserPostedImage UserPostedImage but can also get some French or Italian articles too
Offline H0  
#34 Posted : 01 June 2014 17:38:53(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,505
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kokomo Go to Quoted Post
I'd value "usability" (for not using the term playability) rather than "authenticity".
It's good to have different model lengths to choose from.
I think customers should make their purchase decision knowing what options there are and what they will get.
Shortened coaches come with compromises. Differrent companies make different compromises for different lengths. Mixing brands and/or different length scales may work, but will sometimes look odd.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline dennisb  
#35 Posted : 26 March 2016 09:30:23(UTC)
dennisb

Sweden   
Joined: 21/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 217
Location: Kronoberg
Great article i must say. Some really good stuff to be found here when digging a bit in the archives.

A question that I can't find the answer on, are there any other companies out there that makes the 1:100 scale passenger wagons? I'm one of these weird guys that prefers the shorter wagons.

D.
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Offline H0  
#36 Posted : 26 March 2016 09:48:19(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,505
Location: DE-NW
Roco still make some coaches in 1:100. I think they also made some 1:93.5 or so, but gave that length up.
I think Fleischmann still make some in 1:93.5.
Piko also have some in 1:100.
You can also find Trix sets in 1:100 that do not have equivalents in the Märklin range.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline carlos.rivas.16752  
#37 Posted : 26 March 2016 10:56:39(UTC)
carlos.rivas.16752

Spain   
Joined: 08/04/2015(UTC)
Posts: 248
Location: Vigo, Spain
Different eras...
UserPostedImage
My blog both in Spanish and English: https://grunewiesen1965.wordpress.com
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H0RayFPhredD
Offline H0  
#38 Posted : 26 March 2016 11:07:02(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,505
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: carlos.rivas.16752 Go to Quoted Post
Different eras...
All era III, I think. And at least the two at the top were offered at the same time.

Originally Posted by: dennisb Go to Quoted Post
A question that I can't find the answer on, are there any other companies out there that makes the 1:100 scale passenger wagons?
In my post above I forgot the usual warnings:
  • Make sure you use appropriate couplers for non-Märklin coaches
  • Make sure you use appropriate wheelsets for non-Märklin coaches


I always use AC wheelsets for Piko and Liliput coaches, while Roco and Fleischmann work fine with DC wheelsets on C track.

Never use Märklin couplers with non-Märklin coaches or with vehicles that will be coupled to non-Märklin coaches. The Märklin close coupler is too high and will cause derailments in curves when it collides with the buffers.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline river6109  
#39 Posted : 26 March 2016 11:08:10(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,577
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Roco still make some coaches in 1:100. I think they also made some 1:93.5 or so, but gave that length up.
I think Fleischmann still make some in 1:93.5.
Piko also have some in 1:100.
You can also find Trix sets in 1:100 that do not have equivalents in the Märklin range.



I've got 2 Roco carriages with a length of !:93, dining or restaurant cars are even longer 310mm (1:87)
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
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Offline carlos.rivas.16752  
#40 Posted : 26 March 2016 11:22:04(UTC)
carlos.rivas.16752

Spain   
Joined: 08/04/2015(UTC)
Posts: 248
Location: Vigo, Spain
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: carlos.rivas.16752 Go to Quoted Post
Different eras...
All era III, I think. And at least the two at the top were offered at the same .


Well, I meant different stages in the history of Märklin...I know they are all Era III since all my rolling stock is located on that period BigGrin

Regards
Carlos
My blog both in Spanish and English: https://grunewiesen1965.wordpress.com
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H0
Offline H0  
#41 Posted : 26 March 2016 12:19:35(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,505
Location: DE-NW
The short one appears to be #4000, offered from 1953 through 1980. The #4040, a livery variation, was available until 1991.
The middle one appears to be #4002, offered from 1951 through 1975.
The long one appeared as #4100 in 1981 - and as #4313 is still available.

Different eras, but overlapping. Different target groups.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline dennisb  
#42 Posted : 26 March 2016 17:30:02(UTC)
dennisb

Sweden   
Joined: 21/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 217
Location: Kronoberg
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: carlos.rivas.16752 Go to Quoted Post
Different eras...
All era III, I think. And at least the two at the top were offered at the same time.

Originally Posted by: dennisb Go to Quoted Post
A question that I can't find the answer on, are there any other companies out there that makes the 1:100 scale passenger wagons?
In my post above I forgot the usual warnings:
  • Make sure you use appropriate couplers for non-Märklin coaches
  • Make sure you use appropriate wheelsets for non-Märklin coaches


I always use AC wheelsets for Piko and Liliput coaches, while Roco and Fleischmann work fine with DC wheelsets on C track.

Never use Märklin couplers with non-Märklin coaches or with vehicles that will be coupled to non-Märklin coaches. The Märklin close coupler is too high and will cause derailments in curves when it collides with the buffers.


Yeah, I always exchange the wheels for all rolling stock to AC wheels. I buy them from Modellbahn-Radsatz. Great place and they have all kinds of sizes of wheel sets and also at great places.

D.
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