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Offline Tivvy  
#1 Posted : 25 April 2008 10:16:43(UTC)
Tivvy


Joined: 01/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 414
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
I know this is classified as sin to many of you - but does anyone have a model of the piko ICE 3 or the piko BR101 or any piko IC coaches?
I am interested to know what you think of these models, running characteristics, hauling power, detail, etc
The price on these items might just be a viable one for me to expand towards the fleet the I would like on my layoutSmile

Thanks in advance

Tivvy
Ep IV / V Marklin Layout
6 track dead end station, twin track loop, 4 track through station.
Under construction.
Offline RayF  
#2 Posted : 25 April 2008 10:43:22(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,777
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Hi Tivvy,

I have one of the Piko "Taurus" electrics. It runs reasonably but without speed regulation, much like a Marklin delta lok. You may consider swapping the decoder, but it's not a plug in, so you'll need your soldering iron. Detail is basic, but acceptable.

I also have 3 of the Piko "hobby" coaches, in OBB colours. They are excellent value. The detailing is good, with a reasonable interior. I have not had to change the DC wheels, as they run perfectly through all my turnouts etc. I'm thinking of getting more of these coaches in other liveries.

Ray
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline spitzenklasse  
#3 Posted : 25 April 2008 14:26:28(UTC)
spitzenklasse


Joined: 06/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,573
Location: ,
Hello Yivvy, I have the Piko hobby siemens taurus dispolok. It needs traction tires for longer trains. I don't know how I'd fit them, as the wheels are not grooved for them. It has the same decoder type as a Marklin 3700 series that you program with a 6021 control unit. (no mfx). Ther are no dip switches. It is a uhlenbrok.
Piko does a nice job for the price. My regioswinger railcar is a very nice model. It came with interior lighting.
They give you detailed instructions for retrofitting various decoders and operating lighting differences. The motors are strong, and the gearing quiet. The detail is exquisite. The only difference that I see from a fleischmann, or marklin in detail, are the between car transition bellows are not sprung. So what.
Offline Tivvy  
#4 Posted : 25 April 2008 19:37:01(UTC)
Tivvy


Joined: 01/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 414
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Hmmm thanks guys - I have a BR185 but I havent had a chance to test it properly yet (only on a single loop and not with any load) - not very happy with it actually - the ebay seller said it was a BR189 which is what I wanted, and in fact the box was the correct one however the loco was the BR185...grrrr - not very happy...

I am actually tempted to use a resistor/capacitor accross the motor for some simple load regulation.
Will this destroy the decoder or is it safe?


Also, does anyone have any experience with the piko ICE trains?
Ep IV / V Marklin Layout
6 track dead end station, twin track loop, 4 track through station.
Under construction.
Offline spitzenklasse  
#5 Posted : 25 April 2008 20:35:24(UTC)
spitzenklasse


Joined: 06/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,573
Location: ,
Mine is a marklin, but I've had a look at the motor, and it looks similar to the piko motor in the taurus. They are both cardan shaft driven, so I would give it a try. The Marklin model is all plastic also. Do some investigating, to see if Piko buys theres from Mehano.
Offline Caplin  
#6 Posted : 25 April 2008 21:31:31(UTC)
Caplin


Joined: 23/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,497
Location: Denmark
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Tivvy
<br /> - the ebay seller said it was a BR189 which is what I wanted, and in fact the box was the correct one however the loco was the BR185...grrrr - not very happy...
I hope that you downgraded the bugger accordingly, so other ebay buyers are aware.

Regards,
Benny - Outsider and MFDWPL

UserPostedImage
Online H0  
#7 Posted : 25 April 2008 22:18:37(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,336
Location: DE-NW
Hello, Tivvy!

My Piko locos neither have load regulation nor traction tires and the decoder is soldered in.
But AFAIK new Piko models have both load regulation and traction tires plus a NEM socket for the decoder - that's what I expect the new BR 101 to have (not sure if it's out yet).
My Piko locos have a NEM pocket that allows to plug a close coupler in; however this only works with cars that have no guide mechanism. This is OK for my freight locos (but I'd hate that with an express loco like BR 101).
The default Piko coupler is not too good for push/pull trains ...
I won't order a Piko BR 101 - not until I saw a trustworthy loco review.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Tivvy  
#8 Posted : 26 April 2008 12:28:34(UTC)
Tivvy


Joined: 01/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 414
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Caplin
<br />
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Tivvy
<br /> - the ebay seller said it was a BR189 which is what I wanted, and in fact the box was the correct one however the loco was the BR185...grrrr - not very happy...
I hope that you downgraded the bugger accordingly, so other ebay buyers are aware.




The shipping took so long that the error couldnt be discovered until after the feedback window was closed[:(!][:(!][:(!]
Extremely disapointed as I could have got a Marklin BR146 for basically the same price, the only reason I went for the loco was because it was a BR189 that I like but cannot afford the Marklin MFX model at ~300 Euros[:0][:(]
Ep IV / V Marklin Layout
6 track dead end station, twin track loop, 4 track through station.
Under construction.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#9 Posted : 26 April 2008 12:44:35(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,108
Location: New Zealand
Tivvy, where are you buying your Marklin locos from?? Marklin 39890 BR189 is 159 euros, export price, from the Lokshop.
Offline spitzenklasse  
#10 Posted : 26 April 2008 15:51:47(UTC)
spitzenklasse


Joined: 06/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,573
Location: ,
Tivvy, someone has a video of a Piko ICE3 on youtube running at apretty good clip. There is some gear noise at lower speed. It has reversing head/marker lights. It seems to be a D/C version.
Offline Tivvy  
#11 Posted : 26 April 2008 17:06:37(UTC)
Tivvy


Joined: 01/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 414
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Bigdaddynz
<br />Tivvy, where are you buying your Marklin locos from?? Marklin 39890 BR189 is 159 euros, export price, from the Lokshop.

Ooops - that was my price in AUD...somewhere along the lines I managed to convert that into euros accidentaly.
Ep IV / V Marklin Layout
6 track dead end station, twin track loop, 4 track through station.
Under construction.
Offline Tivvy  
#12 Posted : 26 April 2008 19:18:12(UTC)
Tivvy


Joined: 01/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 414
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Here and Here are two links that I have on the piko ICE however my german is not good enough to get anything meaningful out of them.


Also THIS website has a page dedicated to the model yet again I am unable to get any meaningful information out of it.
Ep IV / V Marklin Layout
6 track dead end station, twin track loop, 4 track through station.
Under construction.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#13 Posted : 27 April 2008 14:16:44(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,108
Location: New Zealand
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Tivvy
<br />
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Bigdaddynz
<br />Tivvy, where are you buying your Marklin locos from?? Marklin 39890 BR189 is 159 euros, export price, from the Lokshop.

Ooops - that was my price in AUD...somewhere along the lines I managed to convert that into euros accidentaly.



biggrinbiggrinbiggrin
Offline hjg2y  
#14 Posted : 16 June 2008 04:22:59(UTC)
hjg2y


Joined: 10/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 10
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Is there a profile for it in the database on the mobile station control unit?

Thanks

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by spitzenklasse
<br />Hello Yivvy, I have the Piko hobby siemens taurus dispolok. It needs traction tires for longer trains. I don't know how I'd fit them, as the wheels are not grooved for them. It has the same decoder type as a Marklin 3700 series that you program with a 6021 control unit. (no mfx). Ther are no dip switches. It is a uhlenbrok.
Piko does a nice job for the price. My regioswinger railcar is a very nice model. It came with interior lighting.
They give you detailed instructions for retrofitting various decoders and operating lighting differences. The motors are strong, and the gearing quiet. The detail is exquisite. The only difference that I see from a fleischmann, or marklin in detail, are the between car transition bellows are not sprung. So what.
Offline klinge-germany  
#15 Posted : 16 June 2008 13:29:53(UTC)
klinge-germany


Joined: 15/07/2003(UTC)
Posts: 260
Location: Hamburg,
hello tivvy,
sorry to hear that the loco was not the one expected....but your expression 'sin' is very good, some participants here feel this way, for sure. i have made this 'sin' some days ago and bought via ebay the steamloco BR 82, an old wish of mine because i have seen this loco very often in my 'younger' days. i have read some comments on the running behaviour of this loco in a german forum (stummi) and will check out this with my loco at the first possibility, but i have no permanent layout yet. the price was 101 euros including shipping with a 37 series like decoder from uhlenbrock.
i hope you have fun with your new loco although its a br185....
best wishes
alfred
alfred...with M since 1960...layout under construction (in mind...)
collecting M items - but not a collector...
editing posts only for tyops...uppps...typos
Offline Hemmerich  
#16 Posted : 16 June 2008 13:56:54(UTC)
Hemmerich


Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by hjg2y
<br />Is there a profile for it in the database on the mobile station control unit?

The MS loco database only contains profiles for Märklin products/decoders. Until today no Märklin loco was equipped with Uhlenbrock decoders; the answer is no.

Most PIKO locos until now were/are equipped with the Uhlenbrock AnDi; as mentioned above a Delta alike decoder.

Offline WelshMatt  
#17 Posted : 16 June 2008 14:38:00(UTC)
WelshMatt


Joined: 06/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,345
Location: ,
I'll second the comment on the IC coaches - not the best detailed out there but very solidly constructed and with a good standard of finish. For £10 or so each they're a bargain, and look pretty good if you swap the couplings for Marklin ones.
Matt from Wales.

When you pay Range Rover prices, don't accept Lada quality
Offline Hemmerich  
#18 Posted : 17 June 2008 13:16:13(UTC)
Hemmerich


Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Tivvy
I am interested to know what you think of these models, running characteristics, hauling power, detail, etc
The price on these items might just be a viable one for me to expand towards the fleet the I would like on my layoutSmile

Tivvy,

I wonder if anybody could already comment on the BR101 as this model has not yet been delivered. wink

The ICE-3 as well as the IC-coaches provide what one might expect from Hobby models in that price range; not much different from Mehano or ROCO Hobby line stuff. Coaches come with DC wheelsets; if needed they can be exchanged (at extra cost) by their AC replacement, usually #56060. Same applies to the couplings; for close connections you'll need to buy the Märklin short couplings in addition.

I'm not too impressed about their workmanship; by no means comparable with alike Märklin Hobby locos. Here an example of the interior of a PIKO TRAXX loco.

UserPostedImage

The decoder "quality" was mentioned already; in order to get any near to the driving and pulling performance of the similar Märklin Hobby TRAXX loco #36854, the wheel sets should be replaced by those painted ones with traction tires (another extra +20€); same applies to the very rudimentary pantos. So, the original model price may be lower but ....

IMHO you get better locos in that price range from Märklin.

When finally looking at the PIKO non-Hobby models, they are usually fine detailed (like the E63/E93) and those prices are as high as those from other suppliers. But lately I helped another model railroader to replace the AnDi in his BR82 (indeed a nice loco; except for the plastic looking of wheels, tubes, etc.) by a LokPilot - it was a real nightmare just by the mechanical design of the model.
Offline WelshMatt  
#19 Posted : 17 June 2008 13:34:42(UTC)
WelshMatt


Joined: 06/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,345
Location: ,
One point I would make is that Piko are the only manufacturer offering a budget priced Br. 218 for AC. I've not actually had my hands on one but so long as it looks the part then I'd consider one.

Marklin really need to offer more Epoch 3/4 locos in the Hobby range - How about a Br. 141 electric in the same vein as the classic 3034/3037? Plenty of liveries and very long-lived. I've been sorely tempted by the existing range but they're all too modern for me.
Matt from Wales.

When you pay Range Rover prices, don't accept Lada quality
Offline RayF  
#20 Posted : 17 June 2008 17:05:05(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,777
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
The Piko Br185 and ER20 loks are certainly not worth getting as the equivalent Marklin ones are about the same price and much better made, and with a better decoder.

When it comes to the Taurus and the Br189 models (and the soon to be released Br101), the Piko models are at least 100 euro cheaper than the Marklin ones, which are all full specification models, so they might be worth getting for the price.

I have already bought a Piko Taurus (in the Dispolok/Kombiverkher livery)and will consider the Br189. For the Br101 I am torn between a new Piko or a 2nd hand Marklin delta.

Piko also make a few other interesting Hobby loks not produced by Marklin, such as the French BB diesels, SBB Am 843, TRAXX Diesel, and G7 steamer. All good stuff for those on a budget.

Ray
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline spitzenklasse  
#21 Posted : 17 June 2008 17:42:13(UTC)
spitzenklasse


Joined: 06/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,573
Location: ,
Hello Tivvy; I feel that you get what you pay for. piko is inexspensive compared to Marklin. Their AC Locs use the same fx decoder as Marklin 3700 series without coding dip switches. You set parameters with a 6021 unit, or mobil, or a CS.
My ICE3 is a Marklin. Had Piko had one then, I may have ordered one. I have a Piko Taurus a/c, and a regioswinger diesel railcar in dc. I couple it with my Fleischmann 610 Pendolino railcar, and without any control electronics, (total analogue) they run smoothly in unison around the layout. As for the Piko Taurus, it could use traction tires, but it is a runner none the less. It can pull a long train fine once it stops spinning it's wheels and builds up speed.
Online H0  
#22 Posted : 17 June 2008 19:29:01(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,336
Location: DE-NW
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by WelshMatt
<br />One point I would make is that Piko are the only manufacturer offering a budget priced Br. 218 for AC.

How about Roco? I have the Hobby model of 218 217 (red/cream) and I think it's OK.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline RayF  
#23 Posted : 17 June 2008 20:13:31(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,777
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Mehano also make a hobby Br218:

BR218 DB 218 137-8 Order No.: 3570 - AC DIGITAL
BR218 DB 218 137-8 Order No.: 3554 - AC DIGITAL SOUND

Look here:

http://www.mehano.si/?PID=21&CID=39&ID=703

Ray
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Hemmerich  
#24 Posted : 17 June 2008 21:15:40(UTC)
Hemmerich


Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by spitzenklasse
Their AC Locs use the same fx decoder as Marklin 3700 series without coding dip switches.

Sorry, but your statement is at least misleading. Märklin 3700 products were equipped with 6090 based load regulated high performance decoders; where, as mentioned before, PIKO models today come with Uhlenbrock's low cost decoder #76320; PIKO's own product# for this decoder is Hobby #56122.

These two decoder types are quite different; not only by their kind of parameter setting.

PIKO AC locos from previous productions came with a rather "rudimentary" decoder version, not much more than a simple reversing unit. Programming of these decoders is (unfortunately) not compatible with MS/CS own procedures and alike for ESU decoders.
Offline Tivvy  
#25 Posted : 18 June 2008 05:39:41(UTC)
Tivvy


Joined: 01/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 414
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Hemmerich
<br />
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by spitzenklasse
Their AC Locs use the same fx decoder as Marklin 3700 series without coding dip switches.

Sorry, but your statement is at least misleading. Märklin 3700 products were equipped with 6090 based load regulated high performance decoders; where, as mentioned before, PIKO models today come with Uhlenbrock's low cost decoder #76320; PIKO's own product# for this decoder is Hobby #56122.

These two decoder types are quite different; not only by their kind of parameter setting.

PIKO AC locos from previous productions came with a rather "rudimentary" decoder version, not much more than a simple reversing unit. Programming of these decoders is (unfortunately) not compatible with MS/CS own procedures and alike for ESU decoders.


The AnDi decoders that I have are definately programable with the MS. Thats is the only means I have of setting them atm.
Ep IV / V Marklin Layout
6 track dead end station, twin track loop, 4 track through station.
Under construction.
Offline spitzenklasse  
#26 Posted : 18 June 2008 05:48:51(UTC)
spitzenklasse


Joined: 06/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,573
Location: ,
Hemmerich; Do you have a #37537 class 120? take the body off. that is no 6090 decoder. They had dip switches. It looks like a uhlenbrock decoder to me. The parameters are set exactly like the piko with my 6021.
Offline spitzenklasse  
#27 Posted : 18 June 2008 05:50:03(UTC)
spitzenklasse


Joined: 06/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,573
Location: ,
true Lutz, it has the old 5 pole motor, but thats where the 6090 similarity ends.
Offline Tivvy  
#28 Posted : 18 June 2008 07:57:18(UTC)
Tivvy


Joined: 01/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 414
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by h-zero
<br />Hello, Tivvy!

My Piko locos neither have load regulation nor traction tires and the decoder is soldered in.
But AFAIK new Piko models have both load regulation and traction tires plus a NEM socket for the decoder - that's what I expect the new BR 101 to have (not sure if it's out yet).
My Piko locos have a NEM pocket that allows to plug a close coupler in; however this only works with cars that have no guide mechanism. This is OK for my freight locos (but I'd hate that with an express loco like BR 101).
The default Piko coupler is not too good for push/pull trains ...
I won't order a Piko BR 101 - not until I saw a trustworthy loco review.


I noticed this when using my loco with some M* Double Deck cars...
Does anyone (probably Lutz) know if you could use a LENGTHENED rigid draw bar to replace the coupling and aviod the derailment problems. If this is the case them I am sure it will allow push trains to run problem-free however it could be that the angles between the pockets mean that this wont work. Has anyone tried this?
Ep IV / V Marklin Layout
6 track dead end station, twin track loop, 4 track through station.
Under construction.
Online H0  
#29 Posted : 18 June 2008 19:00:46(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,336
Location: DE-NW
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by spitzenklasse
<br />Hemmerich; Do you have a #37537 class 120? take the body off. that is no 6090 decoder. They had dip switches. It looks like a uhlenbrock decoder to me. The parameters are set exactly like the piko with my 6021.

My 37537 came factory supplied with an MM only ESU decoder (CV 54 can be used to dim the lights like you do with ESU Lokpilot V 1).

This was the first generation of M* locos with ESU decoders before mfx came out.

37xx means: 6090 decoder.
37xxx can mean anything: 6090, 6090x, crippled ESU, mfx, ...

Speaking about 3700 series doesn't include 37537 (if you ask me).
In the days of 4 digit loco numbers, M* had a strict and documented number scheme.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline klinge-germany  
#30 Posted : 19 June 2008 11:12:31(UTC)
klinge-germany


Joined: 15/07/2003(UTC)
Posts: 260
Location: Hamburg,
i am not a 'digital expert' but i own the PIKO BR82 loco number 50247 since some days, it is for sure equipped with :
- traction tires (2)
- NEM decoder interface plug
- Uhlenbrock decoder 76420 (PIKO # 56121)
- a 4 page manual describing the decoder and its programming (CV values and so on)
- a service phone number of uhlenbrock (normal number, no highcost service number !!)
- NEM coupler sockets with 'kulisse'
....and this all for 101 euros including shipping.... (ebay)

of course i can say this all only for the model 50247...

have fun with your MRR

alfred
alfred...with M since 1960...layout under construction (in mind...)
collecting M items - but not a collector...
editing posts only for tyops...uppps...typos
Online H0  
#31 Posted : 19 June 2008 21:50:37(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,336
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Alfred,

I have three hobby AC locos from Piko.
Only one has traction tires, nones has a NEM decoder socket, none has a guide mechanism for the coupler (and even worse: if you use a close coupler in the NEM pocket, you can only use cars without guide mechanism behind the loco, cars with guide mechanism derail because the distance between loco and car is too close), all three came with an AnDi "decoder" soldered to a PCB that is prepared for a NEM socket ...

Newer Piko hobby locos are better than this.
Piko non-hobby locos should also be better.

But it's hard to tell the age of a loco that is offered in a web shop ...

Back to topic: the new BR 101 will have decoder socket and 2 traction tires (no word about load regulation on the Piko homepage).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline klinge-germany  
#32 Posted : 20 June 2008 12:00:34(UTC)
klinge-germany


Joined: 15/07/2003(UTC)
Posts: 260
Location: Hamburg,
the 50247 (BR82 DB era3) is offered by PIKO since last year, and i will have a test run at the first possibility, as said i am aware of possible problems due to a thread in stummi-forum, the BR82.
The PIKO BR82 is different to locos by M, many parts must be applied to the loco by the user and afterwards it will be much more 'fragile' than a loco by M. But M does not produce a BR82... and if M will not offer a BR94 in the next two years i will have a look onto the Fleischmann model....
alfred
alfred...with M since 1960...layout under construction (in mind...)
collecting M items - but not a collector...
editing posts only for tyops...uppps...typos
Offline RayF  
#33 Posted : 20 June 2008 12:06:58(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,777
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
This is the great thing about other manufacturers offering AC models. You can get models not made by Marklin!

Ray
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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