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Offline shannon  
#1 Posted : 28 March 2012 17:44:43(UTC)
shannon


Joined: 27/01/2005(UTC)
Posts: 337
Location: Taipei,
I found My 37040 a ridiculous mistake. Compared with the pictures as below can you find out the difference?

upper
UserPostedImage

lower
UserPostedImage

The upper picture is correct. Marklin please improve your quality control. Angry

Offline Goofy  
#2 Posted : 28 March 2012 18:11:37(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,019
I´m sorry...but i cannot see difference.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Ian555  
#3 Posted : 28 March 2012 18:21:44(UTC)
Ian555

Scotland   
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 20,240
Location: Scotland
Hi Shannon,

One rod is above and in the other picture it is below, I must go and check.

Ian.



Offline Ian555  
#4 Posted : 28 March 2012 18:27:23(UTC)
Ian555

Scotland   
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 20,240
Location: Scotland
Hi Shannon,

Just checked my own 37040, and both rods are above, as in your first (top) photo.

Ian.

Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 28 March 2012 19:31:08(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Shannon,

Can you correct that problem yourself? Or will you need a correct spare part?

This surely should not occur - but if that grey plastic part is symmetrical and only clipped on, you may be able to fix it in two minutes.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline intruder  
#6 Posted : 28 March 2012 19:38:23(UTC)
intruder

Norway   
Joined: 16/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 5,382
Location: Akershus, Norway
Mine is correct as well, on both sides (as the upper picture)
Best regards Svein, Norway
grumpy old sod
Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 28 March 2012 20:57:05(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
The BR 23 on the picture also slipped through all the QA instances at Märklin (they always show 'em on Märklin TV; I don't recall how I fixed it, but it only took a minute or two):
H0 attached the following image(s):
br23.jpg
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline cookee_nz  
#8 Posted : 28 March 2012 21:23:18(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,955
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: Ian555 Go to Quoted Post
Hi Shannon,

One rod is above and in the other picture it is below, I must go and check.

Ian.



It looks to me as if the vertical arm is meant to be riveted to the upper piston (sorry don't know the correct nomenclature for the various linkages)

The upper piston has a flat (plastic/metal?) section in centre which looks like where the rivet should be mounted?? - (hilighted with arrows ">>>>>")

Not sure how easy this would be to fix if it's a manufacturing defect

Cheers

Cookee
cookee_nz attached the following image(s):
P1080304.jpg
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline Dave Banks  
#9 Posted : 28 March 2012 21:55:54(UTC)
Dave Banks

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,026
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
Hi Shannon, It would appear that it is an assembly fault & you have every right to be upset. It looks like to me you have two right hand sets of rods fitted. No part numbers are offered in the blow up diagram. But on further inspection I believe you can disassemble the rods by removing the press in press out pins & reverse angle of the rods to put it so to say on top again & all should be well. Maybe your dealer if local would be happy to do that for you or return the loco for a replacement. But you definitely are correct about one slipping through the QC process.
D.A.Banks
Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 28 March 2012 22:50:20(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post
The upper piston has a flat (plastic/metal?) section in centre which looks like where the rivet should be mounted?? - (hilighted with arrows ">>>>>")
With M* locos, this is just an imitation - nothing mounted there.
With real locos (and some models), the vertical lever is connected to the rod there, so the lever moves the rod to let steam flow into the cylinder.

So it's just the dark grey, flat, V shaped plastic part that must be turned around. I still don't know if it's only clipped on.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline kimballthurlow  
#11 Posted : 29 March 2012 00:45:26(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,669
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post
The upper piston has a flat (plastic/metal?) section in centre which looks like where the rivet should be mounted?? - (hilighted with arrows ">>>>>")
With M* locos, this is just an imitation - nothing mounted there.
With real locos (and some models), the vertical lever is connected to the rod there, so the lever moves the rod to let steam flow into the cylinder.

So it's just the dark grey, flat, V shaped plastic part that must be turned around. I still don't know if it's only clipped on.


Hi Shannon,
I think Tom is correct, the plastic part has been inverted by "someone".

Did you get this Insider model from an authorised dealer? If so, that is the place you should complain.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
Offline shannon  
#12 Posted : 29 March 2012 03:55:14(UTC)
shannon


Joined: 27/01/2005(UTC)
Posts: 337
Location: Taipei,
Thanks for your replies.

DaveB & Tom is right. The critical mistake is the grey item (Valve Stem Guide ) which should be inverted into 180 degree to the correct position, but prior to doing this I should remove the axle of the radius rod mounted on the valve stem guide, making the rod apart from the valve stem guide .

The difficulity is I have no suitable tools to remove the axle. I also asked my dealer, who said he cannot resolve this problem cause he was affraid to damage the expensive model except for returnning to Marklin....

Kimball is right. I should urge to Marklin and return it for fixing or replacing, but Marklin will pay me the shipping expense by air parcel from Taiwan to Germany up to €50 ? I don't think so.....

Edited by user 29 March 2012 09:17:35(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Drongo  
#13 Posted : 29 March 2012 07:51:31(UTC)
Drongo

Australia   
Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,226
Location: Sydney, NSW
It's sad to see these errors occur, however, as the locos are assembled by humans then there's bound to be human error. This doesn't rectify the problem and it's a shame that you have to pay expensive freight for the item to be repaired.

A note about QA (Quality Assurance) and QC (Quality Control). I know that this is a little off the topic, but I think it needs to be addressed.

QA is not necessarily QC. When one says that this problem passed by QA, they really mean QC. QC is the process of inspecting the production process. Whereas, QA, is addressing the procedures in a particular environment. In this case, the product was missed in QC and now QA will investigate why this happened. A lot of companies don't know the difference and these companies are the ones who don't rectify their processes to prevent the problem from occurring again. I've been trying to press this idea to the Sydney based office of one of the largest companies in the world - and they don't have a QA procedure program - madness. However, they are making plenty of money and as long as they do that, then everyone is happy in the organisation.

Regards
Greg
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Offline kimballthurlow  
#14 Posted : 29 March 2012 14:28:43(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,669
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: shannon Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for your replies.

DaveB & Tom is right. The critical mistake is the grey item (Valve Stem Guide ) which should be inverted into 180 degree to the correct position, but prior to doing this I should remove the axle of the radius rod mounted on the valve stem guide, making the rod apart from the valve stem guide .

The difficulity is I have no suitable tools to remove the axle. I also asked my dealer, who said he cannot resolve this problem cause he was affraid to damage the expensive model except for returnning to Marklin....

Kimball is right. I should urge to Marklin and return it for fixing or replacing, but Marklin will pay me the shipping expense by air parcel from Taiwan to Germany up to €50 ? I don't think so.....


Hi Shannon,
I sympathize - I had to return my previous Marklin Insider model (39090) because the valve gear came adrift after running a month or so. My dealer was good enough to return it to Marklin at no cost to myself, although I did offer to pay. I think he was able to include it with other stuff being returned for repair/warranty etc.

However, I think we in far-flung corners of the globe have to face up at times, to the real costs of our hobby. Even if an Insider/consumer lives in Germany, the cost of getting a warranty item back to the factory is at the cost of the consumer, unless he can take it to a dealer who does it for him.

The cost of returning goods under warranty is legally the responsibility of the consumer. Yes, the item will be fixed or replaced at no charge, but that is the true limit of the manufacturers responsibility.

In this case Shannon, I would urge the dealer to at least subsidise the cost of return. After all, the dealer did make a profit on the sale to you. And from a retailers point of view, 1 returned item for every 30 or 40 items sold, should not be a problem for him to forego some of his profit in paying (or helping to pay) for the return. Good customer relations, and cheap advertising I call it.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
Offline kariosls37  
#15 Posted : 29 March 2012 20:30:01(UTC)
kariosls37

New Zealand   
Joined: 02/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,067
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post

(sorry don't know the correct nomenclature for the various linkage


The vertical rod is called the "lap and lead rod", the bottom rod from the crosshead is the union link and the top one in the picture is the radius rod. To me it looks like the radius rod is just bent down, and could be carefully be bent back.

Tom, what's happened in your photo is that someone assembled the valvegear with the expansion link(curved part of the gear) in the wrong position. I've done it a few times as well. It's easily fixed by removing the nut from the crankpin, taking the eccentric crank off the crankpin and moving the expansion link back into the right position.

Cheers,
Rick
Offline drstapes  
#16 Posted : 29 March 2012 23:27:50(UTC)
drstapes

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/08/2004(UTC)
Posts: 764
Location: Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk
Removing and then trying to replace the valve gear on any steamer can lead to unexpected problems. i,for reasons lost in the mist of time dismanteled a 3005. Having reassembled it,it then refused to move as the wheels on one side were jammed. A similar problem to you in the positioning of the various rods.If I were to do it again I would take a picture first as even the simplest mistakes can be confusing
Regards

Geoff (UK)

marklin HO from the 50's and 60's
Offline kimballthurlow  
#17 Posted : 30 March 2012 00:05:46(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,669
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: shannon Go to Quoted Post
....The difficulity is I have no suitable tools to remove the axle. I also asked my dealer, who said he cannot resolve this problem cause he was affraid to damage the expensive model except for returnning to Marklin....

.....


Hi Shannon,
One thing I should have asked - did the dealer notice this fault before handing over the locomotive?
If the dealer is wise enough not to attempt the repair himself, he should also be wise enough to accept the expense of returning the item to Marklin at his cost. That is my opinion.

regards
Kimball

HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
Offline shannon  
#18 Posted : 30 March 2012 04:12:39(UTC)
shannon


Joined: 27/01/2005(UTC)
Posts: 337
Location: Taipei,
Originally Posted by: drstapes Go to Quoted Post
Removing and then trying to replace the valve gear on any steamer can lead to unexpected problems. i,for reasons lost in the mist of time dismanteled a 3005. Having reassembled it,it then refused to move as the wheels on one side were jammed. A similar problem to you in the positioning of the various rods.If I were to do it again I would take a picture first as even the simplest mistakes can be confusing


Hi Geoff
I totally agree with your viewpoint
In this case the model is not only uncorretly assembled but is used wrong spare part which could make the rod broken when running.

I observed carefully the structure of the valve gear and will post the drawing of spare part I drew for reviewing.

Offline shannon  
#19 Posted : 30 March 2012 04:19:30(UTC)
shannon


Joined: 27/01/2005(UTC)
Posts: 337
Location: Taipei,
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: shannon Go to Quoted Post
....The difficulity is I have no suitable tools to remove the axle. I also asked my dealer, who said he cannot resolve this problem cause he was affraid to damage the expensive model except for returnning to Marklin....

.....


Hi Shannon,
One thing I should have asked - did the dealer notice this fault before handing over the locomotive?
If the dealer is wise enough not to attempt the repair himself, he should also be wise enough to accept the expense of returning the item to Marklin at his cost. That is my opinion.

regards
Kimball



Hi Kimball
Thanks for your suggestion.
My dealer did not find fault before delivery. I had asked him returnning it to Marklin for replacing. He agreed with my request with no shipping charge.

Offline shannon  
#20 Posted : 30 March 2012 04:24:57(UTC)
shannon


Joined: 27/01/2005(UTC)
Posts: 337
Location: Taipei,
Originally Posted by: kariosls37 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post

(sorry don't know the correct nomenclature for the various linkage


The vertical rod is called the "lap and lead rod", the bottom rod from the crosshead is the union link and the top one in the picture is the radius rod. To me it looks like the radius rod is just bent down, and could be carefully be bent back.

Cheers,
Rick


Hi Rick
You are the expert indeed.
The wrong assembly in the picture is radius rod.

Offline TimR  
#21 Posted : 30 March 2012 04:27:49(UTC)
TimR

Indonesia   
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post

Hi Shannon,
One thing I should have asked - did the dealer notice this fault before handing over the locomotive?
If the dealer is wise enough not to attempt the repair himself, he should also be wise enough to accept the expense of returning the item to Marklin at his cost. That is my opinion.

regards
Kimball



Hi Kimball, Shannon,
the difficulty is that a steamer model usually lies only on one side in a Marklin box.

If one side is faulty, chances are that the model may be in the "correct" position to only show the non-faulty side in the box window.

The dealer couldn't possibly spotted the fault unless he actually opened the box and lift the model out to see the other side.

Don't know how many steamers or other types of loco box that he'd have received in any one time OR whether he also sell other brands (most certainly). Add the difficulty of managing all the paperwork in relation of operating a small business, then to also cope with other in-store business problems that would also consume his time.

This make it understandable why a dealer possibly wouldn't have (the time to) lift every model out of the box to check every fault.
Not an excuse, but this is just a simple reasoning.

Glad to hear that the dealer is still being quite reasonable in the Shipment department.


Now collecting C-Sine models.
Offline shannon  
#22 Posted : 30 March 2012 04:30:22(UTC)
shannon


Joined: 27/01/2005(UTC)
Posts: 337
Location: Taipei,
Originally Posted by: youngagain Go to Quoted Post
It's sad to see these errors occur, however, as the locos are assembled by humans then there's bound to be human error. This doesn't rectify the problem and it's a shame that you have to pay expensive freight for the item to be repaired.

A note about QA (Quality Assurance) and QC (Quality Control). I know that this is a little off the topic, but I think it needs to be addressed.

QA is not necessarily QC. When one says that this problem passed by QA, they really mean QC. QC is the process of inspecting the production process. Whereas, QA, is addressing the procedures in a particular environment. In this case, the product was missed in QC and now QA will investigate why this happened. A lot of companies don't know the difference and these companies are the ones who don't rectify their processes to prevent the problem from occurring again. I've been trying to press this idea to the Sydney based office of one of the largest companies in the world - and they don't have a QA procedure program - madness. However, they are making plenty of money and as long as they do that, then everyone is happy in the organisation.

Regards
Greg


Hi Greg
QA is responsible for PDCA process. right ?

Offline H0  
#23 Posted : 30 March 2012 08:25:15(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
The cost of returning goods under warranty is legally the responsibility of the consumer.
Depends on where you live. If you buy from a dealer in your country, this is just a matter of national laws.

You have no contract with Märklin (unless you buy from their webshop), so any Märklin warranty is voluntarily and they set all the rules.

If I buy from a German dealer, s/he'll have to pay for returning goods to the shop (could be parcel fee or a bus/street car/train ticket).
I never tried it, but theoretically I can have the dealer pay for the bus tickets I have to buy to return an item under warranty; I won't get 60 € for a train ticket when a parcel for 6 € would be enough.

Problem is sorted out now. Märklin could have sent spare part #23 either to Shannon or to the dealer to avoid sending the loco back to Germany.

One person made a mistake assembling the rods.
Another person assembled the loco without noticing the fault.
A third person gave this loco a test run without noticing the fault. They only check whether the loco runs and makes noise - they don't check for missing details or assembly faults.

BTW: locos come in clear plastic frames. You can take the plastic frame out of the card box to inspect the rods on both sides without opening the plastic frame (but other faults cannot be noticed on such a "quick and dirty" inspection).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline shannon  
#24 Posted : 31 March 2012 06:40:13(UTC)
shannon


Joined: 27/01/2005(UTC)
Posts: 337
Location: Taipei,
UserPostedImage
Offline cookee_nz  
#25 Posted : 31 March 2012 08:18:51(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,955
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: youngagain Go to Quoted Post
It's sad to see these errors occur, however, as the locos are assembled by humans then there's bound to be human error. This doesn't rectify the problem and it's a shame that you have to pay expensive freight for the item to be repaired.

A note about QA (Quality Assurance) and QC (Quality Control). I know that this is a little off the topic, but I think it needs to be addressed.

QA is not necessarily QC. When one says that this problem passed by QA, they really mean QC. QC is the process of inspecting the production process. Whereas, QA, is addressing the procedures in a particular environment. In this case, the product was missed in QC and now QA will investigate why this happened. A lot of companies don't know the difference and these companies are the ones who don't rectify their processes to prevent the problem from occurring again. I've been trying to press this idea to the Sydney based office of one of the largest companies in the world - and they don't have a QA procedure program - madness. However, they are making plenty of money and as long as they do that, then everyone is happy in the organisation.

Regards
Greg


In a funny way, there is something positive to look at out of all this - Marklin products (or this one at least) are STILL being made by thinking breathing humans just like us.

I'm not downplaying it, not for a minute. When you consider that the person fitting this part probably does hundreds in a week, you'd think they know straight away that it was not right.

Just going off-topic slightly, many years ago I heard an interview with a specialist dealing in counterfeiting money. The question was asked "You must spend a lot of time studying counterfeit notes?". The answer was surprising;

"No" he replied, "I only study the genuine article, because after that the counterfeit is easy to spot"

I'm sure you get my drift.

We all feel for your inconvenience, but at least a pair of hands played a part in the final product - they may have been clumsy hands of course, that just depends whether your glass is half empty, or half full BigGrin BigGrin BigGrin

Good luck with getting it sorted. Perhaps you can ask for a photo of the original assembly worker putting it right and a signed "Certificate of Correction"?

Regards

Cookee
Melbourne
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline RayF  
#26 Posted : 31 March 2012 10:16:34(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,839
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
These mistakes sometimes occur, and somehow get through the final inspections. Where a human being is involved there is always room for error, but do we really want our trains made by robots?

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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