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Offline SBB  
#1 Posted : 26 December 2010 14:03:57(UTC)
SBB


Joined: 26/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 25
Location: Brisbane
Hi everyone,

first post here, Woot

my dad ran Maerklin in the 70s/80s and now has come back to it Smile
I am helping him out and starting him off in this forum.

His new set is C track, layout is mostly complete, I am starting on the diorama for him next. He is a layout, driver enthusiast. I am a scale build and diorama enthusiast (and Tamiya r/c if anyone on here is on TC?).
There are about 5 tiny dead spots on the track where power dies. We have cleaned the 3rd rail (I did a forum search!) and juggled the track connections, but they persist.

Any ideas?

UserPostedImage


He has only one transformer powering it. 18VA from the 29533 digital starter kit. Is that enough?
Offline Ranjit  
#2 Posted : 26 December 2010 14:52:29(UTC)
Ranjit


Joined: 18/06/2003(UTC)
Posts: 3,009
Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
Hi Pierre,

Welcome to the forum, and to the wonderful world of model railroading!

Have you checked your connections? Where exactly on the layout are these "5 tiny dead spots"?

You and your father have a nice little layout out there. Enjoy!

Cheers,
Ranjit
Modelling in HO Scale - Era III & IV. K+M Track, Analogue + Digital
_____________________________________________________________________________

#Get Vaccinated
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come" - Victor Marie Hugo
"If you can dream it, you can do it" - Walt Disney
Offline xxup  
#3 Posted : 26 December 2010 15:02:09(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,473
Location: Australia
Is the dead spot there if you remove all but one loco from the layout? Even parked locos draw current - not much, but it does add up when you are only using a MS1..
Adrian
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Australia flag by abFlags.com
Offline steventrain  
#4 Posted : 26 December 2010 15:11:00(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,606
Location: United Kingdom
Hi Pierre,

Welcome to the forum.Smile
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline Ian555  
#5 Posted : 26 December 2010 15:17:48(UTC)
Ian555

Scotland   
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 20,240
Location: Scotland
Hi Pierre,

Welcome to the forum. ThumpUp

Ian.
Offline Goofy  
#6 Posted : 26 December 2010 17:40:09(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,019
Hey!

Connect wire in each every 2 metres,by counting trackparts.
Like this:First track as feeder,then count to at least ten parts of track and connect next wire.
And besides...18 watts seems to small as powerfeeder!
Because i can see at yours picture,which you have an doubleheaded swiss locomotiv.
This locomotiv draw power at least 10 watt,by using it!!!
Good luck! ThumpUp
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline kurtjr  
#7 Posted : 26 December 2010 18:07:19(UTC)
kurtjr

Switzerland   
Joined: 22/01/2007(UTC)
Posts: 55
Indeed, i've had a similar problem before.
Using the 60VA transformer will solve any current issue.

the 18VA transformer is great when you run a small loop with two or three locos.

Kurt
All SBB's, SNCF and US/CDN model's.
Offline Maxi  
#8 Posted : 26 December 2010 20:57:09(UTC)
Maxi


Joined: 28/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 757
Location: Wawa, Ontario
kurtjr wrote:

Using the 60VA transformer will solve any current issue.

the 18VA transformer is great when you run a small loop with two or three locos.

Kurt


There is also a physical limit as to how much power a Mobile Station will provide and a 60VA transformer will not increase that limit. The only way is to split up the layout into sections and use boosters to power up the extra sections. I am not sure though if a booster can be used on a layout with a Mobile Station as the controller.


Offline RayF  
#9 Posted : 26 December 2010 21:18:45(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,839
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
You say you cleaned the 3rd rail, but problems can also arise from dirty spots on the running rails. Make sure you give the rails a good rubbing down with a clean cloth around the points where the trains stop. This worked for me in similar circumstances.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline David Dewar  
#10 Posted : 26 December 2010 21:48:46(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,343
Location: Scotland
Looking at the layout two feeders would do at the ends furthest from the main feeder. Take all the locos etc off the the layout and just run one loco. If this sorts the problem then you may need a booster (again looking at the layout I would not think this is necessary)
Also you could try : where you have a dead spot remove that bit of track and replace it with a similar part and see if that solves the problem (original was dirty or faulty)

dave
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 26 December 2010 22:13:16(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Pierre!
SBB wrote:
We have cleaned the 3rd rail (I did a forum search!)

You must clean all three rails.
Sometimes the centre rail requires abrasive cleaning (even with new track pieces), e. g. sandpaper.
I wouldn't use abrasive cleaning on the outer rails.

SBB wrote:
He has only one transformer powering it. 18VA from the 29533 digital starter kit. Is that enough?

It's not enough when the shortcut symbol shows up without reason or the MS goes on STOP automatically.

So I presume it's enough for your current needs - the dead spots have a different cause.

The 18 VA transformer is good for 1.0 A output current.
The MS came in two different versions: with 1.2 A or 1.9 A (check OPTIONS => INFO to find with one you have (see OVC: or IT:)).

A 60 VA transformer won't help much with a 1.2 A Mobile Station.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline nevw  
#12 Posted : 26 December 2010 23:52:41(UTC)
nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
Welcome to forum Pierre,

A good cleaning as suggested and Feeder Wires will eliminate most problems.

NN
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
Offline kimballthurlow  
#13 Posted : 27 December 2010 01:37:28(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,669
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Pierre,
I get dead spots on my C track reasonably often, always on curve pieces. The material used may have been a different batch, because all other tracks are fine.

Anyway, my solution works. A number 1200 sandpaper (probably emery, it is very fine and available only at certain outlets, I can't remember where), but only on the centre studs. You can get emerypaper as fine as 2000.
regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
Offline SBB  
#14 Posted : 27 December 2010 09:19:13(UTC)
SBB


Joined: 26/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 25
Location: Brisbane
Hi guys,

Thanks very much for the warm welcome and all the great replies ThumpUp

My Dad is thrilled seeing an internet forum for the first time (!), and grateful for all the suggestions already posted. Smile

We are just going to go now and take off all the locos but one, check the MS power rateing, and reconnect/swap/rotate track parts, and look for 1200 grit to try all your suggestions. Really chuffed, thanks!

Can someone please explain what exactly is meant by feeder? The transformer now has the main output, plus 2 additional ports of (2x black, 2x yellow) My Dad has one yellow and black currently connected, I believe for his switches and signals.


Offline nevw  
#15 Posted : 27 December 2010 09:34:39(UTC)
nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
Feeder wires are A pair of Wires about 2 Metres with Spade Connections on each End. On the piece of track where the power is fed in on the other end of that piece connect a red and Brown to the spade connectors, drill a hole in the Base Board and take the wires down the tracks approx 2 metres back through a new drilled hole and Hook up to the Connections. then on the next Piece of track run another 2 wires. etc etc. REmember the Red goes to the B treminal. You can buy feeder wires as a M Part or get some wire from J Car and terminals and make your own.
This prevents a large Voltage drop around the layout.
N
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
Offline SBB  
#16 Posted : 27 December 2010 10:37:18(UTC)
SBB


Joined: 26/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 25
Location: Brisbane
Cool, thought it might be something like that. I will hook that up. I don't know exactly but it looks about 8-12m of track in total.

I just spent the last hour racing the below with the track cleaner wagon attached to it around the layout. I let Pa walk out before I put the hammer down on full power Laugh and it chuffed around the layout about 30 times by the time I had finished working out multiple switching layouts to cover the lot!

[img]http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQWmFNfKVsDtwgyzq9zRm3R1-q_23zQwS6YGKcvj-Hk98HVYjzfCg[/img]

I took out 3 areas of track and rubbed, rotated, clicked in and out multiple times and so far there are only 2 spots left where power has not been restored (one is on the bridge ramp section). Doing so did make me wonder about screwing the tracks down - if you do and dont use the set for some months, then it will be a hassle to have to unscrew every time a track is giving trouble. I'll get some fine grit for my dad and leave for him in case.

I will try with two loco's now, including the big double green one, and see how it goes.
Later this week I will add a couple of feeders in also. Pa says his Mobile Station is an older one and I cannot see an "Option" menu on it. He is interested in a central station but I'll make another post on that.
Offline Ranjit  
#17 Posted : 27 December 2010 12:40:18(UTC)
Ranjit


Joined: 18/06/2003(UTC)
Posts: 3,009
Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
Hi Pierre,

Glad to see that the situation is improving.

Cheers,
Ranjit
Modelling in HO Scale - Era III & IV. K+M Track, Analogue + Digital
_____________________________________________________________________________

#Get Vaccinated
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come" - Victor Marie Hugo
"If you can dream it, you can do it" - Walt Disney
Offline H0  
#18 Posted : 27 December 2010 12:57:37(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
SBB wrote:
Pa says his Mobile Station is an older one and I cannot see an "Option" menu on it.

Sorry, my error: it's OPTIONEN in German and SETUP in English (OPTIONS in French and OPTIES in Nederlands; would have been too simple to call it OPTIONS in English).

So press Menu/ESC, turn to SETUP, click OK, turn to INFO, click OK, then turn the knob to see all info screens.
For an old MS1, there should be "OVC:" somewhere.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline SBB  
#19 Posted : 27 December 2010 13:17:39(UTC)
SBB


Joined: 26/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 25
Location: Brisbane
Thanks. It is the 1.2A version.


While bringing that up, it scrolled through 2 other screens DV and DA? (sorry, laptop is in a diff room from the set) which were both showing 20.1 - 20.5 live numbers changing. What is this? Huh


With the big green double loc I still had power problems in the original places, the train doesn't always stop though but it flickers and starts playing the "achtung auf gleis.." sound recording. So there is a glitch there, perhaps supplying more power feeds will help.


Can I take the power off the first live track and hook it up to another track 2m away and not continue around the track from there? It would be simpler to do this in 2 diff parts of the layout than running cable under all the layout to cover every c2m.
ie. Will there be any problem adding in 2 feeders without connecting them up in series? Can they just be single point additions?

Thanks again for all the great advice. It's much appreciated!
Offline David Dewar  
#20 Posted : 27 December 2010 13:40:43(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,343
Location: Scotland
You can add feeders direct from the controller or take them from any track part. As I said above,with your layout two extra feeders should be enough at the far ends of your layout. Try with a feeder at your dead spot. Just take two wires from the feeder track at the MS1 and attach to the track with the dead spot (Red to B and Brown to O) any colour wire will do as long as they are connected properly. No need to drill holes at this point just take them over the top of the layout and if the dead spot has gone them you can wire up from underneath.
C track is very good and although needs cleaning from time to time it will be OK providing it gets the power it needs.

You can also disconnect half of the layout and see if the half that remains worls perfectly. If it does then feeders should solve the problem. Easy to do with C track in a few seconds.

dave
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline H0  
#21 Posted : 27 December 2010 15:35:21(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
SBB wrote:
[...] which were both showing 20.1 - 20.5 live numbers changing. What is this? Huh

One is the input voltage, the other the output voltage of the MS.

Values around 20 V are normal if you use the 18 V DC power supply.
With an 16 V AC transformers you'll have values around 22 V.

If the plug of the laptop power supply fits into the connection box, you might try that, too. 18 through 22 V DC will be OK.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline petestra  
#22 Posted : 27 December 2010 15:39:21(UTC)
petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,824
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
Hi Pierre, and welcome to the forum. Are the dead spots near the signals? You need the
little red isolators for the signal blocks. Perhaps these isolators are in the tracks but t
the signals are not connected yet? Could this be? Check it out. Good luck! PeterOhMyGod

I'm not a digital user and I know you said small spots but could this still occur?
Offline Deborail  
#23 Posted : 29 December 2010 08:53:59(UTC)
Deborail

United Arab Emirates   
Joined: 06/10/2009(UTC)
Posts: 819
Location: RAK
18 VA is a bit on the low side. Now I run my small DC layout with a trix 18VA transformer and a marklin Central station.. My current is around 0.8 A with 2 or 3 locos running. To eliminate any shortcomings a 60 VA transformer is a suitable idea. I would like to get one too...But at present, my 18 VA tranformer is sufficient, because I neve run more than 3-4 locos simultaneously.
George

Given enough time, tasks manage themselves.
Offline H0  
#24 Posted : 29 December 2010 10:40:38(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
Deborail wrote:
18 VA is a bit on the low side. [...] To eliminate any shortcomings a 60 VA transformer is a suitable idea.

A Märklin 36 VA power supply would be a better idea.
You don't need a 3.75 A transformer to get the most out of a 1.2 A Mobile Station (the 18 VA/1 A power supply is not far from the maximum anyway). A power supply with stabilized output will be better than an unstabilized transformer.
Cheap universal laptop power supplies can also be used.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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