Hi there!

Any help on some signals/semaphores doubts and what is best for my problems would be appreciated.

I'll use some Marklin digital signals on my layout, mainly on the largest station and on the double line. These signal are OK because they have internall decoder and relay (a double one, i think).

I want to use also some viessmann semaphores on a single branch line. I'm thinking on the 4500 and 4502/3. These ones have a relay also, so my first question is: i only have to use a k83 or Vi5211 decoder to change the signal and make the correct connections to the track, from the semaphore, isn't it? (i don't need an extra relay, with these signals?).

But, i also want to use some 4011 signals on my shadow station and on the access track (call me a foul for putting signals on the shadow station, but wanting to put some webcameras on the shadow station, i think that signals would be a nice visual detail - besides it's a small shadow station). With this signals i need an extra relay, isn't it? For digital in need a 5552 (for two signals) and a k83 or Vi5211 for digital control?

Thanks for any help.

Dale, thanks for your answer... still some doubts...



When you say k84 or their signal module, you say i can use a 5224 plus a 5228 for changing track current? Using this two modules goes over 40 Euros, not counting the signal.



On your image of the modules, what kind of modules are you using?

Thanks.

Dale,

I'll use computer control in my layout, but for safety (*mainly* on the shadow station) i want to control track current.
What i want is to stop the trains ahead of the signal (with computer software), but have a (maybe single) track in front of the signal that have the current turned off. This is only for safety!

Why? Suppose one is using the layout without computer control? (for several reasons... only testing a train; parking a train at the shadow station; whatever). You know that there are several reasons for using the layout without switching the computer on.

On the layout (besides the shadow station) i haven't decide on switching the track current, maybe in some weeks i have made my mind :-) ... but i understood your point.
Even if i decide not to control the track current i'm thinking in preparing the blocks in front of signals on the track, but connecting all the blocks togheter, so if i decide to use train control in the future i could do it without pulling out the tracks.

Viessmann 5210 can control up to two red/green signals, isn't it?
... so you can use one for each two signals...

But talking about k83 and k84, what you were saying in your previous post was that i could use a k83 to switch the signal and a k84 to switch the track? But for that i think it should be cheaper to use a k83 and a 5552 relay form Viessmann (2 realys in each module).

Thanks once again for your help.

Dale, maybe that is not as Viessmann tell us :-)

--- cut here --- from viessmann 5213 manual
If you want to switch signal LED's and the track current for automatic train control, you have to
use two decoders 5213 and set them to the same address. So the outputs with the same number
are switched simultaneously. So you can use one decoder to switch the color light signals
like shown in the diagrams above. The other decoder then can be used for the automatic train
control.
If you want to control digital track power current by the switching contacts of the decoder 5213,
you have to bridge the contacts by a resistor of 1.5k ohms/0.25 watts.This is necessary to ensure
that the locomotive keep the digital information, even when it stops.
--- cut here ---

But i'm not saying that it wouldn't work :-) ... and your way use half the k84 needed :-)

The Viessmann web site has some comprehensive diagrams for wiring. (same as what comes with the signal) There are several flavors, so nose around until you find one you can understand.

I generally use one 5551 relay for each signal. This is a 4-pole relay.
1 for the red/green lights, 1 for track power, one for overhead power, and one for the VorSignal on the previous mast (or S88 detection of signal state, or...). One 5211 for each 4 signals.

My last two layouts had ATC set up with circuit tracks. 2-3 trains could run hands-off. (This is before I had enough throttles to run more than two at a time. [:o)])

Best option I have found.

McLae,



Why do you not use the 5552? Just because you need more than a 2-pole relay?
... otherwise you could use a 5552 for each two signals (controlling only the signal and the track). Am i right?

So, as far as i can see you use a 5551 and 1/4 of a 5211 for each signal? That way you don't need any k84?

Thanks Lars for your infos.

I think that the several ways one can deal with light signals from viessmann are so great that i thought on making a sum of all things said before... here it goes.

For what i found out from Viessmann webpage and from the vast knowledge of this forum, i can see the following five solutions that can:
1) Control Viessmann light signals (i.e 4011)
2) Control track current
3) Work with digital control


The five possibilities are (all references from Viessmann):

1) 5551 + 1/4 of 5211 (k83)

2) 1/2 of 5552 + 1/4 of 5211 (k83)

3) 5221 + 1/4 of 5211 (k83)

4) 5224 + 5228 (the new "Viessmann way")

5) 5213 + 5213 (k84) (one for track current, other for signal)

One thing is usually important: costs
So let's look at some numbers based on Lokshop prices.
(it's not my dealer, but it's a well known one )

5211 - 27,65 €
5213 - 43,26 €
5221 - 16,52 €
5224 - 32,00 €
5228 - 9,60 €
5551 - 11,69 €
5552 - 17,80 €

5214 Powermodule - 11,96 €
(this one is an option for powering decoders like 5211).

Let's start adding some numbers [:I]
NOTE: This configurations is for controling track current and for a digital system.

1) 5551 (11,69) + 1/4 of 5211 (6,91)
Total: 18,60 / each signal (w/out signal!)
Gives a 4-pole relay (if you have working catenary or ...)

2) 1/2 of 5552 (8,9) + 1/4 of 5211 (6,91)
Total: 15,81 / each signal (w/out signal!)
Gives a 2-pole relay (one for signal, one for track current)

3) 5221 (16,52) + 1/4 of 5211 (6,91)
Total: 23,43 / each signal (w/out signal!)
Gives soft light change (a good improvement... like the new digital Marklin signals)

4) 5224 (32,00) + 5228 (9,60)
Total: 41,60 / each signal (w/out signal!)
Gives you soft light change and a signal bus, very good for a full signalling system.

5) 1/4 of 5213 (10,81) + 1/4 of 5213 (10,81)
Total: 21,63 / each signal (w/out signal!)
If someone can tell us that only one k84 makes it, please say so! Viessmann does say it needs one for for track current and other one for the signal itself.

Hope that this can be as usefull to others like it was to me
Thanks for all your help.

Frustration nearing max! I have a Viessman 4002 light block signal and a Viessmann 5221 control box that I am attempting to make work on my Marklin digital layout. I use an IB and have a LDT QS-DEC-II (k83-like) four-fold decoder. I have hooked up all three units according to the viessmann instructions, although the istructions refer to a Viessmann 5211 decoder. This is the only thing different that I can see. The green and red LEDs on the signal work, the decoder works, but I can't get the aspect to change from Green to Red based upon a digital command from the IB. I have checked, re-checked and checked again all the connections. The LDT decoder works on other devices. The only thing I can't test (or don't know how??) is the 5221. Has anyone else experienced a similar problem? Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.
Thanks
Jeff

Dale,
I removed the decoder connections and momentarily touched a ground wire to the red and then green inputs. The signal changes aspect perfectly. I guess this means that my decoder is not commanding properly?? Each leg on the four-fold decoder has three lugs: marked red, nothing (neutral, ground?)) and green. I have one red and one green wire connected from the red and green inputs on the 5221 to the red and green lugs on the decoder. I've tried both with and without a ground wire connected to the grounding lug on the decoder. No luck with either. I'm sure the decoder is good, although I use this leg for an uncoupler track (by holding the corresponding key down). Does that mean its not momentary? The other 3 legs on the decoder are connected to turnout motors on my layout. All continue to work fine??? There is a note in the Viessmann instructions for digital control using their 5211 decoder that puzzles me a bit. It reads "It is important to know that the pulses supplied by the accessory decoder have positive potential (the decoder switches against "+")." Am I using the LDT decoder lugs correctly?
Thanks again.
Jeff

OR,
pssobly some grounding error? The 'yellow' from the 5221 should go to the decoder, but as said, I don't know LDT decoders.

hook up a 16v lamp to the outputs of your decoder - that way you will see if it is momentary or constant. The middle input may be needed to be grounded with the common (positive) brown. (I am not familiar with the LDT equipment but believe it to be good).

Whew... at least I'm not loosing it! yet! Thanks Mikael. That's good to know. I sent an email to LDT asking for their help, but they are off until 9/17. Thank you everyone for your advice!
Jeff

I agree to the drawback of LDT not using positive pulses, which may cause problems together with some other equipment, but for turnouts they are great because they support separate power feed (electrically isolated from the signal feed). This saves a lot of "expensive digital current".