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Offline MärCo  
#1 Posted : 21 June 2006 01:24:41(UTC)
MärCo


Joined: 06/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,159
Location: The Netherlands
I have a very small layout, just a little bit wider than R1 curve. Most switches are operated manual, simply because they are direct at hand.
For operating the locomotives I use a Delta control 4f (66045) and a Delta pilot. Most of the time there are not more than 3 locomotives in use. Two on adress 1 and 2 on the Delta control 4f, and the shunter on the Delta pilot.
That leaves address 3 and 4 on the Delta control 4f out of use. I own two cars with red tail lamps. What I want is to operate the red tail lamps with the function button on address 3 and 4. The solution Märklin offers is direction sensitive (60961), but is there an other possibility? By means of a non Märklin decoder?
Absolutly AFB-NOHAB fan ;-)
Offline Lars Westerlind  
#2 Posted : 21 June 2006 09:57:34(UTC)
Lars Westerlind


Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC)
Posts: 2,379
Location: Lindome, Sweden
Yes,
Uhlenbrock, ESU, Viessmann and others have such. But it's no problem to use a direction sensitive decoder and wire the outputs together, apart from the price of a Märklin decoder of course.

But,
there is a drawback with most other decoders; programming might need a 6021 or equivalent. Märklin have the dip-switch.

On the other hand,
if you like things as dimming, blinking etc, others are better on that.

/Lars

Offline MärCo  
#3 Posted : 21 June 2006 11:50:37(UTC)
MärCo


Joined: 06/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,159
Location: The Netherlands
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Lars Westerlind
<br />But it's no problem to use a direction sensitive decoder and wire the outputs together, apart from the price of a Märklin decoder of course.

/Lars


You mean the 60961 decoder.
Absolutly AFB-NOHAB fan ;-)
Offline Lars Westerlind  
#4 Posted : 21 June 2006 12:03:19(UTC)
Lars Westerlind


Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC)
Posts: 2,379
Location: Lindome, Sweden
Yes,
and any other decoder with direction sensitive output. In the Märklin range you could use an old 6080 if you could get hand of that. You don't have to use the motor output.

Please note that you could set this decoder to the same address as the pulling loco, and control the car and loco light at the same button.

Another way is to use a simple deltadecoder, and connect the lights to the motor output. pro: intensity may be controlled. con: it's done with the speed dial.

/Lars
Offline Sander van Wijk  
#5 Posted : 21 June 2006 13:36:32(UTC)
Sander van Wijk

Netherlands   
Joined: 20/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,248
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands; Göteborg, Sverige,
A little addition to Lars' idea of using a simple Deltadecoder: it's quite easy to get these and they're cheap! Lots of these decoders are obsolete due to conversions to digital. If you're not using your address 3 and 4 on your Delta Control it's probably the cheapest option to control the tail lights of your cars.
Sander
---
Era I(b): K.Bay.Sts.B. and K.W.St.E.
Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 21 June 2006 20:09:59(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,467
Location: DE-NW
A 66032 can be be configured to operate lights with funtion/off.
A cheap TAMS decoder would be sufficient, too - but you probably need a friend to change the address.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Sander van Wijk  
#7 Posted : 22 June 2006 10:44:12(UTC)
Sander van Wijk

Netherlands   
Joined: 20/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,248
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands; Göteborg, Sverige,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by h-zero
<br />A 66032 can be be configured to operate lights with funtion/off.


I've done that quite a few times and it works fine. Here's a how-to:
http://www.bogobit.com/decoder/66032.html
Sander
---
Era I(b): K.Bay.Sts.B. and K.W.St.E.
Offline MärCo  
#8 Posted : 22 June 2006 20:59:14(UTC)
MärCo


Joined: 06/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,159
Location: The Netherlands
Thanks for all the reactions Smile !
Absolutly AFB-NOHAB fan ;-)
Offline viragoLDR  
#9 Posted : 23 June 2006 12:18:57(UTC)
viragoLDR


Joined: 12/01/2005(UTC)
Posts: 703
Location: ,
I have 2 delta decoders around somewhere collecting dust. If you want to test using delta decoders for the light stuff, I could send them over to you, no cost of course ;)

Can't guarantee they work, or if they'll arrive in 1 piece if I send them, but hey =)
- Martijn
(early planning : H0-scale Era I K.Bay.sts.b)
(active planning : N-scale mixed late Era Japanese)
(possibly something Z-scale as well ;))
Offline MärCo  
#10 Posted : 24 June 2006 00:55:25(UTC)
MärCo


Joined: 06/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,159
Location: The Netherlands
It works, but it certainly cost some nerves to solder an 66032 decoder.
The red tail lamps are working on address 4, using function.
Absolutly AFB-NOHAB fan ;-)
Offline viragoLDR  
#11 Posted : 25 June 2006 02:03:49(UTC)
viragoLDR


Joined: 12/01/2005(UTC)
Posts: 703
Location: ,
Try soldering a 12x9 millimeter decoder with 6 wires into a z-scale loco ;)
- Martijn
(early planning : H0-scale Era I K.Bay.sts.b)
(active planning : N-scale mixed late Era Japanese)
(possibly something Z-scale as well ;))
Offline MärCo  
#12 Posted : 01 July 2006 19:21:29(UTC)
MärCo


Joined: 06/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,159
Location: The Netherlands
It is nice to get advice, and to thank everybody who have helped I want to let see what I have done.
I did not have time before to place the pictures.
One more car is on the whishlist to rebuild, but that depends on what the post delivers Smile.

Remove the backplate of the Delta 66032 decoder and making the connections as explained on this website.

http://www.bogobit.com/decoder/66032.html

After that setting the decoder on the address I wish.

UserPostedImage

Soldering the decoder into car 4411.
Red = current pick up
Brown = mass
Grey and yellow = to the lamp fitting

UserPostedImage

The backplate of the decoder is glued to the sidewal of the car. In this way it keeps nice in place.

UserPostedImage

Needless to say I am very happy with the result.
Absolutly AFB-NOHAB fan ;-)
Offline laalves  
#13 Posted : 01 July 2006 19:56:26(UTC)
laalves


Joined: 10/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,162
Location: Portugal
Looks great, but why are you installing lighting in a CLOSED boxcar? biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin

Luis
Offline MärCo  
#14 Posted : 01 July 2006 20:29:00(UTC)
MärCo


Joined: 06/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,159
Location: The Netherlands
Buy a 4411 and find out wink.
Absolutly AFB-NOHAB fan ;-)
Offline john black  
#15 Posted : 01 July 2006 23:14:06(UTC)
john black

United States   
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
Only 2 locking points - that shell should go off/on with speed of light. Clever solution Cool
I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide

Offline Lars Westerlind  
#16 Posted : 02 July 2006 00:47:38(UTC)
Lars Westerlind


Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC)
Posts: 2,379
Location: Lindome, Sweden
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by MärCo
<br />It is nice to get advice, and to thank everybody who have helped I want to let see what I have done.
...



Thanks,
that the kind of response we like most. Report of a succesful project with pictures...

Glad you did it.
/Lars
Offline MärCo  
#17 Posted : 15 July 2006 16:40:56(UTC)
MärCo


Joined: 06/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,159
Location: The Netherlands
Installed today the second car with a modified 66032 decoder. It's Primex 4021 with Märklin 7076/7079 taillamps.

UserPostedImage
Absolutly AFB-NOHAB fan ;-)
Offline MärCo  
#18 Posted : 11 August 2006 00:49:13(UTC)
MärCo


Joined: 06/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,159
Location: The Netherlands
@ viragoLDR :

Many Smile many Smile many Smile many Smile many Smile many Smile many Smile many Smile many Smile many Smile many Smile many Smile many Smile many Smile many Smile many Smile many Smile many Smile many Smile many Smile many Smile thanks. Recieved the decoders by post in good condition today.
Absolutly AFB-NOHAB fan ;-)
Offline viragoLDR  
#19 Posted : 19 September 2006 18:59:13(UTC)
viragoLDR


Joined: 12/01/2005(UTC)
Posts: 703
Location: ,
Hmm... Completely lost track of this post, but you're welcome ;) Better to put them to good use rather than have them collect dust ;)

And thanks for the postcard ;)
- Martijn
(early planning : H0-scale Era I K.Bay.sts.b)
(active planning : N-scale mixed late Era Japanese)
(possibly something Z-scale as well ;))
Offline Zora la rousse  
#20 Posted : 03 December 2006 17:36:06(UTC)
Zora la rousse


Joined: 02/10/2005(UTC)
Posts: 856
Location: ,
Was the 66045 the forerunner of the Mobile Station?
You are never too late to become a Märklin fan.
Offline RayF  
#21 Posted : 03 December 2006 19:40:53(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,871
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Not really, Zora.

It's more like a very limited 6021 central control, with only 4 addresses available (5 with an extra handheld control called a delta pilot), and functions limited to only 1, usually the lights on/off function.

Ray
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline RayF  
#22 Posted : 03 December 2006 19:44:01(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,871
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
This is what it looks like:

UserPostedImage

Ray
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline kgsjoqvist  
#23 Posted : 04 December 2006 11:13:20(UTC)
kgsjoqvist

Sweden   
Joined: 04/06/2002(UTC)
Posts: 754
Location: Täby
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Zora la rousse
<br />Was the 66045 the forerunner of the Mobile Station?


You can say that the Mobile Station replaced the Delta control 4f. There was a previous version without speed dial and light button. Then you had to use the speed dial of the trafo.

The one and only advantage with the Delta units is that it is very easy to use. That's the reason it was included in starter sets. You just turn one knob to select address and the other to select the speed. But only 4 addresses are available (5 if you add a Delta Pilot - a handheld extra unit). The Delta decoders have 15 addresses, but stay away from anything marked with Delta! The Mobile Station and the new cheap digital decoders are far better!
K-G / H0 and Z model train user
Offline RayF  
#24 Posted : 04 December 2006 12:17:09(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,871
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:but stay away from anything marked with Delta!


This is a very unfair comment, and you should qualify it as being your opinion! I have many delta locomotives, and while it is true that the low speed running is not as good as with newer decoders, the locomotive will work on the digital system with no modification at all, which is a huge advantage over purely analogue locomotives.

As to the new cheap decoder sets, they are excellent if you are converting a DCM locomotive, which most pre-1980 (and some more recent) locomotives are not, and conversion kits for these types are currently more than three times the price.

To sum up, if you see an old second hand locomotive you like which is marked as delta, don't be put off, it will work with digital, just be aware of the limitations. You can get some really good bargains like that.

Of course, this is all <u>my</u> opinion.

Ray
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline john black  
#25 Posted : 04 December 2006 12:29:32(UTC)
john black

United States   
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
Got only three Deltas - but I second Ray's comment Smile
I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide

Offline kgsjoqvist  
#26 Posted : 04 December 2006 12:52:22(UTC)
kgsjoqvist

Sweden   
Joined: 04/06/2002(UTC)
Posts: 754
Location: Täby
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by RayPayas
<br />
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:but stay away from anything marked with Delta!


This is a very unfair comment, and you should qualify it as being your opinion! I have many delta locomotives, and while it is true that the low speed running is not as good as with newer decoders, the locomotive will work on the digital system with no modification at all, which is a huge advantage over purely analogue locomotives.

As to the new cheap decoder sets, they are excellent if you are converting a DCM locomotive, which most pre-1980 (and some more recent) locomotives are not, and conversion kits for these types are currently more than three times the price.

To sum up, if you see an old second hand locomotive you like which is marked as delta, don't be put off, it will work with digital, just be aware of the limitations. You can get some really good bargains like that.

Of course, this is all <u>my</u> opinion.

Ray


To clarify my statement: The Delta equipment can be useful for some purposes, and at the 2nd hand prices it can even be a bargain.

But for someone starting from scratch right now it is better to buy "full digital" locos and decoders. In best case a Delta loco can have acceptable performance, but they usually consume more digital power and lack functions, like turning lights on/off. I bought this weekend a 60760 upgrade kit (for less than 40€) for one of my two Delta locos to see if I can make it a decent runner. The other Delta loco is a small steamer without lights, so I'm not planning to upgrade it. After converting my Delta loco I will report back about any improvements. (It's a Br151 electric heavy freightloco).

So, as you can see I use Delta myself, but I think there have been a lot of improvements in the low-price end of the market, so there are better choices now...
K-G / H0 and Z model train user
Offline H0  
#27 Posted : 04 December 2006 18:31:02(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,467
Location: DE-NW
AFAIK new Delta decoders are even better than old 6080 decoders.
When it comes to upgrading, Delta locos and 33xx locos are (as a rule of thumb) easier to convert than 30xx/31xx locos.
A few years ago I converted conventional locos with Delta decoders. I wouldn't do this again today.
And finally: Delta locos with a slow gear behave better than Delta locos with a fast gear.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Hemmerich  
#28 Posted : 04 December 2006 19:18:57(UTC)
Hemmerich


Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Zora la rousse
<br />Was the 66045 the forerunner of the Mobile Station?

Hi Zora,

The Delta Control #66045 is the successor of the #6604 (which didn't allow switching lights) and the predecessor of the new #67025, which is supplied for example with the Märklin starter set #29852.

There are a number of differences between the Delta Controllers and the Mobile Station.

MS has:

- intgrated booster with 1,2 or 1,9A (cannot be used external with other controllers)
- Lok database
- no Adress limitation (if using mfx, otherwise 1-80)
- display with up to 9 selectable function keys, including loco light
- ability to modify parameters of a loco with programmable decoder
- ability to be used with the CS as additional loco drive control
- update feature
- "plug and play" connectors

Delta Control 4f has:

- integrated booster with up to 2A (can be used external with other controllers)
- rotary switch to select up to 4 locos (fix addresses 24,60,72 and 78)
- button to switch loco lights
- two connectors to plug in an additional handheld drive control (fix assigned to loco address 80).


Offline hxmiesa  
#29 Posted : 20 December 2006 10:24:01(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,600
Location: Spain
Delta Control can also:

-be used as an interface to a PC, for totally computerized control (RR%Co).
-be modified to use at least 16 addresses and (I think) 4 functions.

The needed schematics to connect, setup and modification are readily available off the internet.

For Delta´s flying off of Ebay at 10€, it seems like a real bargain for the DIY people! ;-)
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline kgsjoqvist  
#30 Posted : 20 December 2006 11:40:15(UTC)
kgsjoqvist

Sweden   
Joined: 04/06/2002(UTC)
Posts: 754
Location: Täby
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by hxmiesa
<br />Delta Control can also:

-be used as an interface to a PC, for totally computerized control (RR%Co).
-be modified to use at least 16 addresses and (I think) 4 functions.

The needed schematics to connect, setup and modification are readily available off the internet.

For Delta´s flying off of Ebay at 10€, it seems like a real bargain for the DIY people! ;-)


How do you connect the Delta Control to the computer? It is not officially supported by Railroad & Co or other major programs. And since Delta Control only controls locos (except funtions f1-f4), not accessories, it would have very limited use. Of course you could use the Delta Control as a booster and let the computer generate the digital signal, but there are no commercial programs available that are capable to do this.
K-G / H0 and Z model train user
Offline hxmiesa  
#31 Posted : 20 December 2006 14:13:10(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,600
Location: Spain
@kqsjoqvist; Okay, I suppose I should have expected this question...
Take a look at DDW at;
http://home.snafu.de/mgrafe/index.htm
and
http://vogt-it.com/OpenS...trol&img=RS-6604.gif

They use to have all diagrams and programs necessary.

I understand that it doesnt really matter what the Delta Control can do on its own; here it is used as a booster, and will repeat everything send in to it, to the tracks.
In the spanish Märklin Café forum, a member claims to have done this with the DDW solution and RR&Co. (and that WindigiPet can also be used)
For use with RR&Co (and similar), I understand that you must make an interface for the S88 bus, but the site also has instructions on how to do this.
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline kgsjoqvist  
#32 Posted : 20 December 2006 15:50:20(UTC)
kgsjoqvist

Sweden   
Joined: 04/06/2002(UTC)
Posts: 754
Location: Täby
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by hxmiesa
<br />@kqsjoqvist; Okay, I suppose I should have expected this question...
Take a look at DDW at;
http://home.snafu.de/mgrafe/index.htm
and
http://vogt-it.com/OpenS...trol&img=RS-6604.gif

They use to have all diagrams and programs necessary.

I understand that it doesnt really matter what the Delta Control can do on its own; here it is used as a booster, and will repeat everything send in to it, to the tracks.
In the spanish Märklin Café forum, a member claims to have done this with the DDW solution and RR&Co. (and that WindigiPet can also be used)
For use with RR&Co (and similar), I understand that you must make an interface for the S88 bus, but the site also has instructions on how to do this.


Well, I have seen DDL (for Linux) before, but this project has made some progress! As far as I can see, you need a server program that includes the drivers for the interface signals. Then you need a cable to connect the PC to the booster or Delta Control. The feedback can be provided through a cable connected to the parallell port (LPT). Both of these cables are quite easy to make. Then you just need a SRCP-compatible client program that can send commands to the server program. This standard (SRCP) is used mostly by Open Source Linux-programs.

Here comes the smart thing about DDW: Since most available programs on the market don't use SRCP commands, DDW can use a virtual COM-port to receive input from another program. The other program thinks it is talking to a Märklin 6051 interface, but in fact the information is passed on to the DDW program.

This saves the cost for buying a digital central and an interface. I think I'll give it a test drive soon. The DDW programs are free to download, and a test version of Windigipet or RR & Co should work just as fine.
K-G / H0 and Z model train user
Offline hxmiesa  
#33 Posted : 20 December 2006 16:45:15(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,600
Location: Spain
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by kgsjoqvist
feedback can be provided through a cable connected to the parallell port (LPT). Both of these cables are quite easy to make.

Last time I checked it, it contained diagrams for an electronic interface. More components there, than I wanted to get involved with. Have you seen a more simple solution for teh S88 interface+cable???

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Here comes the smart thing about DDW: Since most available programs on the market don't use SRCP commands, DDW can use a virtual COM-port to receive input from another program. The other program thinks it is talking to a Märklin 6051 interface, but in fact the information is passed on to the DDW program.

Yes, I guess THAT is the *BINGO* or "Bonanza"! ;-)
Could one classify this as a "virtual sniffer"?
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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