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Offline RayF  
#1 Posted : 26 May 2015 18:29:41(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Hi folks,

I've been trying to identify the exact colour of the DB freight wagons.

I have some cheap wagons I bought some time ago moulded in brightly coloured plastic and I would like to repaint them into a brown colour that will closely match the majority of my freight stock. I've tried several Humbrol colours that come no-where near!

If you can quote a Humbrol or Revell paint colour that would be great, as these are more easily available to me.

Thanks in advance,

Ray
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Modelleisenbahnfan  
#2 Posted : 26 May 2015 20:48:13(UTC)
Modelleisenbahnfan

Germany   
Joined: 06/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 52
Hi Ray,

the German wiki says RAL 8012 "Rotbraun" as primary colour of the freight cars (till 1996).

kind regards

Robert
Märklin, what else?
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#3 Posted : 27 May 2015 02:06:12(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,659
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
If you can quote a Humbrol or Revell paint colour that would be great, as these are more easily available to me.


Hi Ray, I don't think Humbrol have a specific colour that matches any of the DB paint colurs. However, I was in a local model shop over the weeked and the Lady owner of the shop had a Humbrol book, which among others gave paint mixing details for making up the correct DB paint colours by mixing various Humbrol colours.

She allowed me to take photos with my mobile phone of the DB Rail colours page, so I will dig them out and post them here.
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Offline Shamu  
#4 Posted : 27 May 2015 02:46:16(UTC)
Shamu

Australia   
Joined: 12/07/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,068
Location: In a building site in Yeppoon
I know its of no real use to you Ray but I remember using a particular range of Humbrol paints back in the 60's/70's that had all of the most common RAL/RLM colours, amongst them was Rotbraun that I used in summer camouflage on my tanks.

I can not for the life of me recall the sub-name of the humbrol paints but I have not seen them since the early 80's..... maybe if someone could recall the correct name you might be able to track down old stock.

In the meantime here is a colour chart for Humbrol and some cross reference.

EDIT;
Found these 4 colour charts squirreled away on the NAS
File Attachment(s):
Humbrol-Wall-Chart.pdf (1,843kb) downloaded 33 time(s).
Shamu attached the following image(s):
Paint Chart 1.jpg
Paint Chart 2.jpg
Paint Chart 3.jpg
Paint Chart 4.jpg
Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#5 Posted : 27 May 2015 03:13:04(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,659
Location: New Zealand
Photos as promised!
Bigdaddynz attached the following image(s):
20150523_125305s.jpg
20150523_125211s.jpg
20150523_125220s.jpg
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#6 Posted : 27 May 2015 03:17:29(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,659
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: Modelleisenbahnfan Go to Quoted Post
the German wiki says RAL 8012 "Rotbraun" as primary colour of the freight cars (till 1996).


The chart I took photos of says 'Rotbraun' is equivalent to Humbrol 133.
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Offline RayF  
#7 Posted : 27 May 2015 12:00:41(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Modelleisenbahnfan Go to Quoted Post
the German wiki says RAL 8012 "Rotbraun" as primary colour of the freight cars (till 1996).


The chart I took photos of says 'Rotbraun' is equivalent to Humbrol 133.


Thanks, David. Very helpful! ThumpUp

My colour chart gives no direct equivalent for Humbrol, but 133 is a colour I haven't tried yet. I'll give it a go if I can find it in one of the local model shops.

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by RayF
Offline Shamu  
#8 Posted : 27 May 2015 12:32:43(UTC)
Shamu

Australia   
Joined: 12/07/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,068
Location: In a building site in Yeppoon
There are 2 Vallejo #'s that supposedly match up going by the Humbrol pdf at the top and the third scan I put up, 552 & 982.

There may be others but I was going cross-eyed checking the conversion tables on the Humbrol pdf.
Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#9 Posted : 27 May 2015 13:02:07(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,659
Location: New Zealand
Humbrol 133.

UserPostedImage
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#10 Posted : 27 May 2015 13:08:45(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,659
Location: New Zealand
Although, in this Humbrol colour chart 133 looks more like crimson! Scared

http://scale-models.nl/cc-humbrol.html
Offline RayF  
#11 Posted : 27 May 2015 16:14:12(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Although, in this Humbrol colour chart 133 looks more like crimson! Scared

http://scale-models.nl/cc-humbrol.html


I have the pdf version of the current Humbrol colour chart. 133 does look rather red on it!

File Attachment(s):
Humbrol Enamel Colour Chart.pdf (3,292kb) downloaded 36 time(s).
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Shamu  
#12 Posted : 28 May 2015 02:35:08(UTC)
Shamu

Australia   
Joined: 12/07/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,068
Location: In a building site in Yeppoon
Going by that newer chart of yours Ray the 160 German Camouflage Red Brown looks closer to the Rotbraun I recall using back in the day, maybe needs to be a tad redder.

Trouble is unless the monitor is colour calibrated its near impossible to accurately use colour charts.
Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
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Offline RayF  
#13 Posted : 28 May 2015 12:13:01(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Shamu Go to Quoted Post
Going by that newer chart of yours Ray the 160 German Camouflage Red Brown looks closer to the Rotbraun I recall using back in the day, maybe needs to be a tad redder.

Trouble is unless the monitor is colour calibrated its near impossible to accurately use colour charts.


Hi Shane,

Yes, I tried 160, but it was too dark and not red enough.

This morning I went to my local model shop and they had Humbrol 133 in stock, so I bought a couple of tinlets. The colour of the lid is almost spot on, but this is sometimes misleading. I'll try it out on a wagon this weekend and let you all know.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Shamu  
#14 Posted : 10 June 2015 07:30:28(UTC)
Shamu

Australia   
Joined: 12/07/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,068
Location: In a building site in Yeppoon
Hi Ray,

You had a go with the 133 yet ? is it close or spot on. If so I'll stock up on some myself.
Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
Offline RayF  
#15 Posted : 10 June 2015 12:05:49(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Shamu Go to Quoted Post
Hi Ray,

You had a go with the 133 yet ? is it close or spot on. If so I'll stock up on some myself.


Hi Shane,

I repainted a couple of wagons in Humbrol 133 and it's nowhere near the right shade.

I think the tone is correct, but the shade is too light, if you see what I mean. I'll post a photo when I get home so you can compare.

Edit: -

Looking now at the photo below I think the tone is not right either. It definitely needs more red in it!

Edited by user 10 June 2015 17:08:45(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by RayF
Offline Shamu  
#16 Posted : 10 June 2015 12:46:52(UTC)
Shamu

Australia   
Joined: 12/07/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,068
Location: In a building site in Yeppoon
Perhaps a few drops of the 160 in the 133 ?
Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
Offline RayF  
#17 Posted : 10 June 2015 12:54:32(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Shamu Go to Quoted Post
Perhaps a few drops of the 160 in the 133 ?


Might work, but I really don't want to go down the route of paint mixing.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline RayF  
#18 Posted : 10 June 2015 17:06:24(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
OK, here's a comparison photo. The wagon on the left is the Jouef gondola I painted using Humbrol 133. The one on the right is a standard Marklin wagon. Actually later wagons are slightly darker, but this one is a bit closer to the colour of my repaint. It's still no-where near correct though!

UserPostedImage
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#19 Posted : 10 June 2015 21:53:47(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,659
Location: New Zealand
The wagon on the left looks more correct than the Marklin wagon. Photos can be deceptive though.
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H0RayFShamu
Offline RayF  
#20 Posted : 10 June 2015 22:20:25(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
The wagon on the left looks more correct than the Marklin wagon. Photos can be deceptive though.


Absolutely right!

On it's own, the wagon painted in Humbrol 133 looks quite good, but when you place it alongside a wagon from any of the manufacturers it looks wrong. Most of the brown wagons I have, be they from Marklin, Roco, Lima, Joeuf, Lilliput, or Piko, are close enough in colour that they can be considered a match. The wagons I've painted are visibly different.

Colours always look different in photos, depending a lot on lighting conditions and the way the pigments in the paint reflect different frequencies of light. Some colours, such as bright fluorescent reds and greens, are very difficult to reproduce properly in a photo.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Shamu  
#21 Posted : 11 June 2015 02:16:24(UTC)
Shamu

Australia   
Joined: 12/07/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,068
Location: In a building site in Yeppoon
I just held up one of my Liliput low side wagons to the screen and its a dam near perfect match to the repaint on the left and nothing like the one on the right............

Just goes to show how unreliable (even calibrated) monitors can be when it comes to determining the true colour of something.
Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#22 Posted : 11 June 2015 18:38:00(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,067
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Shamu Go to Quoted Post
I just held up one of my Liliput low side wagons to the screen and its a dam near perfect match to the repaint on the left and nothing like the one on the right............

Just goes to show how unreliable (even calibrated) monitors can be when it comes to determining the true colour of something.


I just held a 46410 up beside the photo and the red of that just about matches the right hand wagon in the photo, and I normally regard my monitors has having pretty good colour.

When I first saw the photo I thought the left hand wagon was the original.Blink Blink Blink

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Online kimballthurlow  
#23 Posted : 13 June 2015 05:29:08(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,640
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi,
I have followed this thread with interest, due to having to match paints for various models.
However, I have not had occasion to do the red-brown for DB wagons.

Regarding the Humbrol colour charting, I have the complete Colour System ring-bound book described earlier by David aka biggdaddynz.
It lists 133 in a number of places, as:
Satin Brown (generic name)
Red Oxide (for LNER)
Indian Red (for GWR)
Freight Stock Red Bauxite (for British Railways)
Rotbraun (for DB)

Mixing paints to attempt to get a correct colour (without a formula) is full of traps for the unwary (you do not get what you thought you were going to get), and I rarely go to that trouble.
A "close enough" attitude does me, because from one year to another, colours fade.
On any day, ambient light or shadow, plays huge tricks anyway.
And the use of over-spray of matt or gloss creates large differences too.
I think Ray's repainted wagon looks great.

You could also try Humbrol 113 or 160, though there are probably other standard colours that might suit just as well.

In the USA, they used a colour called box car red. You can imagine the variety in which that appeared!

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Online kimballthurlow  
#24 Posted : 12 March 2016 02:33:10(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,640
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi,
Further to this subject, I recently touched up the paint on 2 cars to take their place in a model 1946 German freight train.
The photos below, show the difference between Humbrol 133, and the standard colours used by both Marklin and Fleischmann for era II/III rolling stock.

I painted over unwanted lettering, then used decals to finish.
The process involved tiny brush paint, gloss spray, decaling, decal-set, matt spray in that order.
(Please excuse the poor decaling effort, I have to improve on that).
Humbrol 133 shows little difference to the original in my opinion.
In these models, I repainted whole boards to look as though they had been replaced or repaired and repainted.

The Fleischmann Gh Karlsruhe car is #5361 made from 1991-1999.
The Marklin Om Essen wagon is #4896 made in 1991. (I need to obliterate the original numbers on the black solebar).
I also used the paint on:
1. a Liliput Oppeln car, the match was poor, the original paint had a reddish tinge
2. A Piko Ommu wagon, again a perfect match.

UserPostedImage

regards
Kimball

Edited by user 12 March 2016 07:49:51(UTC)  | Reason: edited the grammar

HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline RayF  
#25 Posted : 12 March 2016 11:08:12(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Thanks Kimball.

I agree, that's as near as you can get to a perfect match to my eyes!

I think the colour of the underlying paint has a significant effect on the final shade. In my case, the Joueff open wagons I was repainting were bright yellow and bright green, if I recall correctly. I under-coated then both with Humbrol 62 (matt leather) and then brush painted them in 133. I might experiment with a different colour of base coat.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Brakeman  
#26 Posted : 30 March 2016 18:26:28(UTC)
Brakeman

United States   
Joined: 14/04/2006(UTC)
Posts: 298
Location: Southern California
Thanks for the good tips!

I have a Märklin G10 boxcar from Ebay, which was damaged in the transit. It came in a set 46161 without couplings. In the sales package the couplings hold the car nicely in the place, but in my case the frame had smashed through the both end walls of the superstructure. The wall thickness in these cars is very thin and the plastic used is brittle. Almost a total loss.

I glued the re-usable pieces in place and reinforced the walls with styrene plates. I made up the needed planked walls also from Evergreen styrene. Couldn't find any Humbrol 133 to test, but instead noticed that MOLAK 1133 Satin was a perfect match for the brown plastic used this production batch. The MOLAK cans I have must be 15 years old, and haven't seen them in U.S. at all. According to Google, they are still known in Southern European hobby shops.

Also built end lights and fitted it with a magnet for reed switches to serve as a end car, but that's another story.

Keep on shunting,
Juha

G10 Marklin fix2_b.jpg
G10 Marklin fix_b.jpg
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Offline RayF  
#27 Posted : 30 March 2016 19:37:25(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Good job!
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by RayF
Offline Brakeman  
#28 Posted : 30 March 2016 19:58:52(UTC)
Brakeman

United States   
Joined: 14/04/2006(UTC)
Posts: 298
Location: Southern California
Excellent job!
I'm sure the decals look fine on your layout. Twenty megapixel close-ups are tough for any model.
Where did you get the decals from?
There are plenty of American available, but painting and re-lettering in Europe is not that big thing.

Thanks,
Juha



Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Hi,
Further to this subject, I recently touched up the paint on 2 cars to take their place in a model 1946 German freight train.
The photos below, show the difference between Humbrol 133, and the standard colours used by both Marklin and Fleischmann for era II/III rolling stock.

I painted over unwanted lettering, then used decals to finish.
The process involved tiny brush paint, gloss spray, decaling, decal-set, matt spray in that order.
(Please excuse the poor decaling effort, I have to improve on that).

...
regards
Kimball


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Online kimballthurlow  
#29 Posted : 30 March 2016 20:58:54(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,640
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Juha,

Thank you. Yes on the layout, the decalling does not look bad at all.
Decals for most German stuff are available at http://modellbahndecals.de/.

They seem reasonably priced(about same as US decals).
It took me 6 visits to get used to this site, as I don't read German.
I followed the home page links to drill down to what I wanted, in the end I got lots of numbers and era II genus names (Munchen, Kassell etc) for wagons.

Like US decals, the quaiity seems to vary between sheets.
Champ decals in USA were unsurpassed in their consistent quality, and ability to slide the decal off in the water.
With the German ones, minimal soak time, and placing the paper on the model, then sliding the decal off did the trick.

By the way, I had a similar breakage problem with G10 Marklin box cars from Hoffmann in Canada about 7 years ago.
He kindly replaced them, but yes the chassis are quite heavy, and any mis-handling of the package can do that damage.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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