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Offline Ken Mitchell  
#1 Posted : 01 May 2015 15:41:30(UTC)
Ken Mitchell

Australia   
Joined: 06/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 67
Location: Berry, NSW
Just showing my limited model railway knowledge, i keep coming across the term "shadow station" Confused . What does this actually mean? An example of its application in relation to model railways is appreciated.

Kind regards

Ken
Offline SteamNut  
#2 Posted : 01 May 2015 16:03:41(UTC)
SteamNut

United States   
Joined: 11/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 488
Basically it is a "hidden yard" where one stores trains and/or cars till they are ready to be used. Some may call it storage yards or fiddle tracks. The term shadow is not used in the US I suspect it comes from a translation from German to English. Some are visible but most can not be seen - Fred
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#3 Posted : 01 May 2015 16:10:52(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
In addition, while both are separated from the layout area meant for display, for me a fiddle yard is "open" - allowing easy GHI, while a shadow station is rather "closed" and camouflaged - and not meant for GHI.
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Offline PMPeter  
#4 Posted : 01 May 2015 16:24:38(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,272
Location: Port Moody, BC
GHI?
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Offline Ken Mitchell  
#5 Posted : 01 May 2015 16:30:31(UTC)
Ken Mitchell

Australia   
Joined: 06/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 67
Location: Berry, NSW
Originally Posted by: SteamNut Go to Quoted Post
Basically it is a "hidden yard" where one stores trains and/or cars till they are ready to be used. Some may call it storage yards or fiddle tracks. The term shadow is not used in the US I suspect it comes from a translation from German to English. Some are visible but most can not be seen - Fred


Thankyou Fred, appreciated. Understand it now. Ken
Offline Ken Mitchell  
#6 Posted : 01 May 2015 16:33:22(UTC)
Ken Mitchell

Australia   
Joined: 06/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 67
Location: Berry, NSW
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
In addition, while both are separated from the layout area meant for display, for me a fiddle yard is "open" - allowing easy GHI, while a shadow station is rather "closed" and camouflaged - and not meant for GHI.


Thankyou Alsterstreek, cleared that up. Next problem, i spend my life around aircraft with three letter acronyms - TLA. What is GHI? Ken
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Offline rbw993  
#7 Posted : 01 May 2015 17:15:28(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 954
GHI = 5 fingered crane

Roger
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#8 Posted : 01 May 2015 18:45:31(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
GHI?

Originally Posted by: Ken Mitchell Go to Quoted Post
What is GHI? Ken

GHI = Giant Hand Intervention

Originally Posted by: rbw993 Go to Quoted Post
GHI = 5 fingered crane

Indeed. Qualifies for a new acronym: FFC

:o)
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Offline rbw993  
#9 Posted : 01 May 2015 19:08:58(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 954
Uh oh, are we going to need a TLA translator on the CS2? What about Chinese isn't a TLA just same characters as words?
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#10 Posted : 02 May 2015 17:55:53(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,067
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Ken Mitchell Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: SteamNut Go to Quoted Post
Basically it is a "hidden yard" where one stores trains and/or cars till they are ready to be used. Some may call it storage yards or fiddle tracks. The term shadow is not used in the US I suspect it comes from a translation from German to English. Some are visible but most can not be seen - Fred


Thankyou Fred, appreciated. Understand it now. Ken


Just to confuse you a little more, in some contexts people will use the term 'schattenbahnhof' for the same thing.

I am not sure if this is a the correct German term for it, but certain English speaking modellers of European railways use the term.

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Offline Western Pacific  
#11 Posted : 02 May 2015 20:35:23(UTC)
Western Pacific

Sweden   
Joined: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 841
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Ken Mitchell Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: SteamNut Go to Quoted Post
Basically it is a "hidden yard" where one stores trains and/or cars till they are ready to be used. Some may call it storage yards or fiddle tracks. The term shadow is not used in the US I suspect it comes from a translation from German to English. Some are visible but most can not be seen - Fred


Thankyou Fred, appreciated. Understand it now. Ken


Just to confuse you a little more, in some contexts people will use the term 'schattenbahnhof' for the same thing.

I am not sure if this is a the correct German term for it, but certain English speaking modellers of European railways use the term.



Schattenbahnhof directly translated to English would be shadow station, in other words you have found the origin for it. And yes a Schattenbahnhof is a hidden area of a layout where entire trains can be "parked" when not being used. It can also serve the purpose of creating a feeling of greater distances by allowing another train to appear from a tunnel just seconds after another train disappeared in another tunnel. If you have a Schattenbahnhof with five tracks, you can let one train stop and send off trains from the other four tracks one at the time before sending off the first train again. Taking that approach I would say that the Schattenbahnhof is part of the layout.
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Offline RayF  
#12 Posted : 02 May 2015 21:25:15(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I'm not a great fan of having a station "in the shadows". There are several reasons why not:

- As they are hidden they usually live at a lower level from the main layout tracks, and require steep gradients to get the trains between these levels
- Once in the "shadow station" the trains are no longer visible and not serving any useful purpose; not even for display of stock
- Shadow stations are very often highly inaccessible, so if a train stalls or derails it is difficult to get at it
- You can't always see which tracks are free, making it very easy to run a train into the back of another, or requiring complicated automation
- The tracks are very difficult to keep clean

There was an article in one of the model railway magazines a few years ago that outlined the problems I've mentioned and suggested that the solution is to make your "fiddle yard" or "shadow station" an integral part of your layout in full view. The article suggested various ways in which the area could be made a viable scenic part of the plan, such as another station, a goods yard, carriage sidings, etc. It made a lot of sense!

On my current small layout I do just this, with the trains not running stopped at either one of the station platforms, one of the goods yard sidings, one of the sidings in the loco yard, or my farm siding.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Western Pacific  
#13 Posted : 02 May 2015 21:52:54(UTC)
Western Pacific

Sweden   
Joined: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 841
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
I agree with Ray's view on disadvantages of certain designs of Shattenbahnhöfe.

On the other hand one, if not the best i have seen, was that of Marklinfan club Italia on display in Göppingen at the Märklintage in 2011. The visible part of the layout was ten metres long (perhaps longer) and was about sixty centimetres deep. Behind the visible part, hidden by a background was a large Schattenbahnhof, perhaps a metre wide or more with lots of tracks and at the same level as the visible part.

Youtube part 1. Part 2.
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Offline RayF  
#14 Posted : 02 May 2015 23:15:52(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Western Pacific Go to Quoted Post
I agree with Ray's view on disadvantages of certain designs of Shattenbahnhöfe.

On the other hand one, if not the best i have seen, was that of Marklinfan club Italia on display in Göppingen at the Märklintage in 2011. The visible part of the layout was ten metres long (perhaps longer) and was about sixty centimetres deep. Behind the visible part, hidden by a background was a large Schattenbahnhof, perhaps a metre wide or more with lots of tracks and at the same level as the visible part.

Youtube part 1. Part 2.


Hi Per,

In the case of exhibition layouts, this type of fiddle yard is ideal. It is especially effective in modular club layouts, where each member brings along a module built to certain specifications and all get connected together. Sometimes these fiddle yards can be used for several diifferent club layouts, saving time and effort.

Edited by user 03 May 2015 10:54:38(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Shamu  
#15 Posted : 03 May 2015 03:27:21(UTC)
Shamu

Australia   
Joined: 12/07/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,068
Location: In a building site in Yeppoon
In the early 90's when delivering a computer during the course of setting it up for the client the conversation turned to model trains. Once the computer was out of the way I was invited to the downstairs train room and there I saw one of the best solutions I have ever seen.

A motorised display cabinet of 20 tracks (from memory) which moved up and down as trains entered and left. No computer control all relays/trip & reed switches. I think it was mentioned that it had mostly been made out of old vending machines.

It is something that impressed me no end and I often thought it a idea solution.
Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
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Offline NZMarklinist  
#16 Posted : 03 May 2015 04:27:23(UTC)
NZMarklinist

New Zealand   
Joined: 15/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,757
Location: Auckland NZ
A Shadow Station or "Schatten Bahnhoff" is exactly that.

It means the Station tracks are hidden from view, with trains ready to be bought out onto the layout when required.

It can be behind a Mountain or on a lower level.

The usual way of transitioning from the lower level is by a spiral.

Have a look at the "Peter Porsche Traumwerk" thread and follow the various links in there. It has lots of Schatten Bahnhoffs, or Shadow Stations, which in this case are all behind Mountains.

You will need to look at the 2014 & 2014 "Berichte" or report list to see the layout B4 it was fully sceniced, but one of the recent Marklin TV specials shows a train being loaded on one. ThumpUp

Here is a youtube video of a private one in operation, which really explains all Woot

Glen
Auckland NZ

" Every Marklin layout needs a V200, a Railbus and a Banana car", not to mention a few Black and red Steamers, oh and the odd Elok !

CS1 Reloaded, Touch Cab, C Track Modules, K track layout all under construction. Currently Insider
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Offline RayF  
#17 Posted : 03 May 2015 11:08:43(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Shamu Go to Quoted Post
In the early 90's when delivering a computer during the course of setting it up for the client the conversation turned to model trains. Once the computer was out of the way I was invited to the downstairs train room and there I saw one of the best solutions I have ever seen.

A motorised display cabinet of 20 tracks (from memory) which moved up and down as trains entered and left. No computer control all relays/trip & reed switches. I think it was mentioned that it had mostly been made out of old vending machines.

It is something that impressed me no end and I often thought it a idea solution.


Hi Shane, I've often thought that an arrangement like that would be ideal. Sadly I'm not that good mechanically that I could design and build a system that works!

Another similar solution is the "Train cassette" system, where you have a length of track as a cassette which can be removed from the layout and stored on a shelf. Many different cassettes can be kept on shelves on the wall and the required one can then be attached to the track and the train driven off it onto the layout. Cassettes can be built into lengths of perspex box-section, which then serve as ready made display cabinets too.

There used to be a manufacturer who made these ready for use, but I can't find the advert in my current model railway magazines.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Alsterstreek  
#18 Posted : 03 May 2015 11:30:29(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
Like the PECO loco lift / storage unit?

http://www.peco-uk.com/p...p;numSearchStartRecord=1
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Offline RayF  
#19 Posted : 03 May 2015 11:37:17(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
Like the PECO loco lift / storage unit?

http://www.peco-uk.com/p...p;numSearchStartRecord=1


Hi Ak,

That's a good example, though in this case only the loco can be lifted off the layout.

I've seen similar items for lifting the whole train off, though they tend to get a bit unwieldy when the train gets to over a metre in length.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Ian555  
#20 Posted : 03 May 2015 12:02:17(UTC)
Ian555

Scotland   
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 20,235
Location: Scotland
Hi Ray,

I've seen that system in operation, 2 man lift on the 2m tubes, I'll let the forum member show a photo.

Ian.

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Offline kiwiAlan  
#21 Posted : 03 May 2015 18:07:17(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,067
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Ian555 Go to Quoted Post
Hi Ray,

I've seen that system in operation, 2 man lift on the 2m tubes, I'll let the forum member show a photo.

Ian.



Are you thinking of the Trainsafe tubes? Come in two styles, one is a clear rectangular cross section tube designed for displaying trains, the other is a clamshell arrangement that can be plugged onto the end of a track. The clamshell parts need to be opened to run the train out as the inside is lined with foam plastic to hold everything in transport.

A number of guys used these clamshell units to bring their items to run when we attended Toms (HO) club meeting when we were in Cologne.

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Offline RayF  
#22 Posted : 03 May 2015 19:13:28(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Thanks Alan. Yes I was thinking of the trainsafe tubes.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline hxmiesa  
#23 Posted : 05 May 2015 17:05:43(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,519
Location: Spain
Shadow-stations are excellent!!! -and for so many reasons!
-They allow for train storrage out-of-sight. Thereby giving a varied trafic on the visible part of the layout.
-As they are often stored under the main level, the trains are kept dust-free, and the same goes for the track. Also, light does not yellow the plastic (as much).
-They allow you to have much more rolling stock present on the layout, without the need for shuffeling boxes around; taking out, putting in, potentially damaging all handrails, sliders and pantos.

About RayF´s comment about being inaccessible and using steep gradients; That is entirely up to the builders criteria. They can be made perfectly accessible and use practical gradients. It´s not any different than any other tunnel or overcrossing on the layout. (=Don´t do it, if you cant do it properly!!!)
Also, train occupance is particularly easily done with 3-rail, as you can isolate one of the rails, and connect it to a LED to have a clear visal indication of its occupance!

**

The real fun (for me at least) is to automate these sections in order to have a great variety of trains running; On my layout I have a big shadow-station in each end of the main track. One holds 16 trains, the other 14. A randomizer selects what train to let out.
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline waorb  
#24 Posted : 05 May 2015 19:56:10(UTC)
waorb

Brazil   
Joined: 31/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 868
Location: Brazil
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
A randomizer selects what train to let out.

Huh? Confused

Randomizer?
RollEyes

Cheers,
Walter
Offline RayF  
#25 Posted : 05 May 2015 20:05:31(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: waorb Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
A randomizer selects what train to let out.

Huh? Confused

Randomizer?
RollEyes

Cheers,
Walter


You throw dice to decide which train runs next! ThumpUp
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#26 Posted : 06 May 2015 21:34:54(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
my hidden station is critical to realistic layout operation on my layout.

It keeps the trains safe, out of dust and light, track stays clean and with proper design is accessible and need not have steep gradient to get there.

What is often not recognised when designing a layout is that the hidden tracks are just a big buffer for train storage, but the trains should not be made to wait there too long. I bring my trains out of the hidden tracks and have them ready to emerge from a tunnel as soon as the track ahead is freed up. This is the part that is critical to keeping the layout alive. People need to have moving trains to watch. You dont want to have to wait a minute for a train to get out of its storage (perhaps traverse a helix) and then eventually emerge.

I run higher track speed limits in hidden areas too, so that once a train has disappeared, it hurries to where it is going and thus frees up the track behind it sooner. Other trains are waiting for that track.

In my current layout I have two stations. Some trains travel between the two stations and their origin/destinations are reflected accordingly. but other trains are long distance and are claimed to come from (or go to) other cities if they come from or go to hidden tracks.

Hidden tracks allow way more trains to be run than otherwise. I also keep a really nice long goods train hidden away until visitors start understanding how things are working and then run that through - it always surprises them.

It does take some planning and engineering and they typically have to be laid out (and tested) before the visible parts of the layout that are more fun to work on.

Mine can be seen at http://cabinlayout.mixmo...ED-lighting-hidden-areas
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline carlos.rivas.16752  
#27 Posted : 07 May 2015 11:49:47(UTC)
carlos.rivas.16752

Spain   
Joined: 08/04/2015(UTC)
Posts: 303
Location: Vigo, Spain
Originally Posted by: Shamu Go to Quoted Post
In the early 90's when delivering a computer during the course of setting it up for the client the conversation turned to model trains. Once the computer was out of the way I was invited to the downstairs train room and there I saw one of the best solutions I have ever seen.

A motorised display cabinet of 20 tracks (from memory) which moved up and down as trains entered and left. No computer control all relays/trip & reed switches. I think it was mentioned that it had mostly been made out of old vending machines.

It is something that impressed me no end and I often thought it a idea solution.


Guess you´re talking about something like this:



Here´s how the guy made it:

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage


Regards
Carlos
My blog both in Spanish and English: https://grunewiesen1965.wordpress.com
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Offline PJMärklin  
#28 Posted : 07 May 2015 13:44:44(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,204
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: carlos.rivas.16752 Go to Quoted Post

Guess you´re talking about something like this:

Here´s how the guy made it:

Regards
Carlos


¡Hola Carlos! ,

Thank you so much for posting this most interesting miniature engineering masterpiece !!

Regards,

PJ
Offline carlos.rivas.16752  
#29 Posted : 07 May 2015 15:52:41(UTC)
carlos.rivas.16752

Spain   
Joined: 08/04/2015(UTC)
Posts: 303
Location: Vigo, Spain
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: carlos.rivas.16752 Go to Quoted Post

Guess you´re talking about something like this:

Here´s how the guy made it:

Regards
Carlos


¡Hola Carlos! ,

Thank you so much for posting this most interesting miniature engineering masterpiece !!

Regards,

PJ


Thanks PJ

Here you are the thread from Stummiforum:

http://www.stummiforum.d...ic.php?f=64&t=110273

Cheers
Carlos
My blog both in Spanish and English: https://grunewiesen1965.wordpress.com
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Offline Shamu  
#30 Posted : 08 May 2015 07:59:00(UTC)
Shamu

Australia   
Joined: 12/07/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,068
Location: In a building site in Yeppoon
Similar idea Carlos but not a rotary system. Excellent setup though.

It was a twin track vertical bookshelf arrangement that went from floor to ceiling with the bottom most tracks level with the layout when it was fully raised to the ceiling and the top most when it was fully lowered. All up from memory it was around 15 to 20 levels so about 30 to 40 locos/consists in total. About 1.4 meters of storage given the standard ceiling height of 2.8 meters.

Doubt I'd ever be able to replicate either.
Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
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Offline Gregor  
#31 Posted : 08 May 2015 08:52:27(UTC)
Gregor

Netherlands   
Joined: 17/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 996
Location: Netherlands
Originally Posted by: carlos.rivas.16752 Go to Quoted Post
Here´s how the guy made it.


Long time ago when I had just joined this forum we had some debate on this principle as well, see:
https://www.marklin-user...ow-station.aspx#post1020

I estimated this project would surpass my woodworking skills. I like the way he used the chain to keep the 'gondolas' aligned.

In the end I went for a Helix which stores 26 trains and connects the 2nd to the 3rd level of my layout. Operation has proven to be extremely reliable due to the absence of turnouts. However I have no possibility to choose which train exits the shadow station. First in is first out!

UserPostedImage

Gregor
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Offline carlos.rivas.16752  
#32 Posted : 08 May 2015 09:57:25(UTC)
carlos.rivas.16752

Spain   
Joined: 08/04/2015(UTC)
Posts: 303
Location: Vigo, Spain
Originally Posted by: Gregor Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: carlos.rivas.16752 Go to Quoted Post
Here´s how the guy made it.


Long time ago when I had hust joined this forum we had some debate on this principle as well, see:
https://www.marklin-user...ow-station.aspx#post1020



Gregor


Very interesting thread. Thanks.

Regards
Carlos


My blog both in Spanish and English: https://grunewiesen1965.wordpress.com
Offline hxmiesa  
#33 Posted : 21 May 2015 13:14:13(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,519
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: waorb Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
A randomizer selects what train to let out.

Randomizer?

When the unit is turned on, it adds 1 to a counter every second.
When overrun at 8, it´s reset to 1. It runs continuosly in the background.
When a switch is triggered on the track or by a push-button on the panel (meaning that a train can now leave the shaddow-station), the track number "X" (X being what the coutner is at this very moment) in the shaddow-station is powered, and a RANDOM train goes put!

It´s a computer-program, and there is much more to it; if the track is actually occupied, if it hold s a long or two short trains, etc...
But a random train is definatly activated and send out on demand!

Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#34 Posted : 24 May 2015 00:11:32(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
Originally Posted by: Gregor Go to Quoted Post
Operation has proven to be extremely reliable due to the absence of turnouts.



Here is my simple shadow station. The return blob at the end of the mainline is bloated to five tracks, allowing for coiling long trains around the curves. The station throat is in the open (thus no "shadowed" turnouts which could complicate things) - giving the impressions that there are ten tracks, but the tracks itself and parked trains are left in the dark. An expressway overpass and a passenger station building are camouflaging the entrance(s).
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
image.jpg
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Offline Ken Mitchell  
#35 Posted : 24 May 2015 02:45:56(UTC)
Ken Mitchell

Australia   
Joined: 06/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 67
Location: Berry, NSW
Thankyou folks for the informative information regarding shadow stations. It completely satisfied my orginal question. Kind regards Ken BigGrin
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