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Offline XIV  
#1 Posted : 05 April 2015 20:05:56(UTC)
XIV

Mexico   
Joined: 20/01/2014(UTC)
Posts: 12
Hello! It's my first post here.
I want to share my last adquisition and I want to ask you if it's a fair deal or not.

I found it in a local web page of sales and I paid 80€, the paint conditions isn't excellent but is quite good (I think).

box 1

box2

box3

box4

What do you think?

Cheers!


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Offline kiwiAlan  
#2 Posted : 05 April 2015 20:24:16(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: XIV Go to Quoted Post
Hello! It's my first post here.
I want to share my last adquisition and I want to ask you if it's a fair deal or not.

I found it in a local web page of sales and I paid 80€, the paint conditions isn't excellent but is quite good (I think).

...

What do you think?

Cheers!




€80 for a Warship I would regard a sa very good price. I don't know what the Kolls price is, but this model is quite hard to obtain.

Offline Mark_1602  
#3 Posted : 05 April 2015 20:30:16(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Hi,

You got a bargain because the box is original, rare and still in good condition. In fact, it's quite easy to find a near-mint copy of the 3073.2 from the 1970s without a box. Then you can put that locomotive into the box, sell this 3073 on Ebay to get some money back. With an original instruction manual, which is occasionally sold on Ebay, you'd have a perfect set; hardly anybody can tell the difference between a 3073.1 and a 3073.2 anyway. (A truly mint and original 3073.1 with a very good box and an instruction manual would cost about 260-300.)

Alternatively, you can use this 3073 on an analogue layout and have fun if you're not a collector. 80 euros would be a normal price for a mint and original light blue 3073 box (without a locomotive). Your box isn't mint, but I think it would cost at least 50 euros on Ebay.de. Well done!

Best regards,

Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline hennabm  
#4 Posted : 05 April 2015 20:58:47(UTC)
hennabm

Scotland   
Joined: 22/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 2,040
Location: Edinburgh,
Hi

Looks like a good buy to me. The Warship is a rare machine. M didn't make them for long. The only problem for me was that they never made any consists or wagons to go with the lok.

Enjoy your purchaseThumpUp

Mike
1957 - 1985 era
What's digital?
Offline Webmaster  
#5 Posted : 05 April 2015 21:06:13(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
How does the short end of the box with the model number look?
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline XIV  
#6 Posted : 05 April 2015 21:22:37(UTC)
XIV

Mexico   
Joined: 20/01/2014(UTC)
Posts: 12
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
How does the short end of the box with the model number look?


Firstly, thank you for your answers.

These photos were sent me by the seller and tomorrow I'm going to get it BigGrin BigGrin , so I don't know more about the box neither of the loco.

I'm trying to enlarge my little collection, when I have more time I'm going to post some photos of it.
Offline RayF  
#7 Posted : 05 April 2015 23:50:42(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Nice loco!

You can run it with the coaches from a Harry Potter set if you want a typical British Rail passenger train.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline steventrain  
#8 Posted : 06 April 2015 10:58:53(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,601
Location: United Kingdom
Very good find. I did not see the centre pickup shoe under the bogie? Is it Hamo 2-rails?

I have the mint boxed 3-rails.

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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Offline timvenn20183  
#9 Posted : 06 April 2015 12:36:18(UTC)
timvenn20183

South Africa   
Joined: 23/09/2013(UTC)
Posts: 21
Location: Johannesburg
Hi, does anyone know why Marklin made this lok. Seems a bit strange to have a single British lok but no rolling stock, or am I missing something :-)
Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 06 April 2015 13:16:04(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
The prototype loco was AFAIK based on the German V 200 - and the model was based on the German V 200.
I don't know why they didn't make other road numbers or other liveries. Maybe not enough sales.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Mark_1602  
#11 Posted : 06 April 2015 18:41:43(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: timvenn20183 Go to Quoted Post
Hi, does anyone know why Marklin made this lok. Seems a bit strange to have a single British lok but no rolling stock, or am I missing something :-)


Hi,

Back in the 1960s, Märklin made an effort to sell more outside Germany, and many international models were designed in that decade. In 1967 Märklin tried to get back into the British market, which had been lost for good at the outbreak of World War II. As I've read in another forum, they had plans for a British steam locomotive and coaches as well, but the 3073 didn't sell well, so the other planned models were never built.

Märklin's plans were unrealistic and based on the fact that its products had been popular in the UK before WWI, and to a lesser degree, in the period between the two world wars. After WWII, Märklin just didn't sell much in the UK, and the 3073 was a failed attempt to reverse that trend. Most customers who bought one were probably German. The locomotive could still be ordered as a kit until the late 1970s and enjoyed a modest success during that decade. Märklin even provided a box with a cellophane cover upon demand.

Only the first version from the late 1960s with the light blue box is quite rare; Märklin had 8,000 illustrated boxes as well as 10,000 instruction manuals printed in February 1967. For the new Nohab diesels, 45,000 light blue illustrated boxes were printed in January 1964, and another 18,000 were printed in July 1966, so the 3073 box is comparatively rare. I've seen quite a lot of second versions on Ebay though, including some with original (cellophane) boxes.

Best regards,
Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#12 Posted : 06 April 2015 18:56:42(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: timvenn20183 Go to Quoted Post
Hi, does anyone know why Marklin made this lok. Seems a bit strange to have a single British lok but no rolling stock, or am I missing something :-)


Hi,

Back in the 1960s, Märklin made an effort to sell more outside Germany, and many international models were designed in that decade. In 1967 Märklin tried to get back into the British market, which had been lost for good at the outbreak of World War II. As I've read in another forum, they had plans for a British steam locomotive and coaches as well, but the 3073 didn't sell well, so the other planned models were never built.

Märklin's plans were unrealistic and based on the fact that its products had been popular in the UK before WWI, and to a lesser degree, in the period between the two world wars. After WWII, Märklin just didn't sell much in the UK, and the 3073 was a failed attempt to reverse that trend. Most customers who bought one were probably German. The locomotive could still be ordered as a kit until the late 1970s and enjoyed a modest success during that decade. Märklin even provided a box with a cellophane cover upon demand.

Only the first version from the late 1960s with the light blue box is quite rare; Märklin had 8,000 illustrated boxes as well as 10,000 instruction manuals printed in February 1967. For the new Nohab diesels, 45,000 light blue illustrated boxes were printed in January 1964, and another 18,000 were printed in July 1966, so the 3073 box is comparatively rare. I've seen quite a lot of second versions on Ebay though, including some with original (cellophane) boxes.

Best regards,
Mark


Because of the similarities to the v200 it was also a reasonably easy loco to produce to test the market. I haven't compared a V200 and a Warship side by side to see if it is a the same shell with a different paint job, but my gut feeling is the chassis is the same but the shell is different.

Another problem with penetrating the British market is the difference is scale. When you put a OO and HO item side by side the ~12% difference is scale is quite obvious.

Offline RayF  
#13 Posted : 06 April 2015 19:27:34(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
British HO has only a very small following in the UK, but international Märklin fans might have been more willing to buy the loco if it had a suitable train to pull.

Alternatively they might have gone for a more iconic British loco, like Mallard, Flying Scotsman, or a Deltic.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Mark_1602  
#14 Posted : 07 April 2015 14:29:05(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Hi,

Here's a link to a thread on Stummis forum in which someone makes some claims about models that Märklin had planned in the 1960s but never produced. I don't know if any of that is true, but there is a picture of a West Country steam engine.

It's a weird thread, but Märklin might have had plans for more British models in the 1960s. At that time the company also had other projects that were shelved, such as gauge N.

Stummiforum Märklin illustrations

Best regards,

Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Mark_1602
Offline kiwiAlan  
#15 Posted : 07 April 2015 15:52:27(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post
Hi,

Here's a link to a thread on Stummis forum in which someone makes some claims about models that Märklin had planned in the 1960s but never produced. I don't know if any of that is true, but there is a picture of a West Country steam engine.

It's a weird thread, but Märklin might have had plans for more British models in the 1960s. At that time the company also had other projects that were shelved, such as gauge N.

Stummiforum Märklin illustrations

Best regards,

Mark


Hmmmmm those boxes are obvious knock-ups, one wonders how much of the story is for real.

I'll have to run it through Google translate to get the story ...

Offline H0  
#16 Posted : 07 April 2015 16:00:35(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
[...]one wonders how much of the story is for real.
Not much.
Text starts with "Nothing is real ...".

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline NZMarklinist  
#17 Posted : 07 April 2015 17:18:52(UTC)
NZMarklinist

New Zealand   
Joined: 15/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,757
Location: Auckland NZ
Originally Posted by: steventrain Go to Quoted Post
Very good find. I did not see the centre pickup shoe under the bogie? Is it Hamo 2-rails?

I have the mint boxed 3-rails.

UserPostedImage




Mint boxed maybe, but Steven, did you slop your Cuppa on the instruction manual Scared LOL
Glen
Auckland NZ

" Every Marklin layout needs a V200, a Railbus and a Banana car", not to mention a few Black and red Steamers, oh and the odd Elok !

CS1 Reloaded, Touch Cab, C Track Modules, K track layout all under construction. Currently Insider
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Offline Mark_1602  
#18 Posted : 07 April 2015 21:07:31(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post


Hmmmmm those boxes are obvious knock-ups, one wonders how much of the story is for real.

I'll have to run it through Google translate to get the story ...



Hi,

I'm not sure if a Google translation would reflect the highly imaginative nature of this German thread. Most of it is fantasy, but one thing that is GENERALLY true is that in the past Märklin sometimes designed models that were never produced because they didn't get the green light from management, so only one copy was made. There are a few famous examples of this in scale H0, though not the ones mentioned in this thread. Before WWII, there were prototypes of a small Crocodile and a Br 50 in H0, and in 1950, Märklin developed a prototype of a one-unit American diesel locomotive based on the DL 800, but much shorter. I've seen photos of those three in books.

Best regards,
Mark

Edited by user 08 April 2015 08:55:40(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline Dangermouse  
#19 Posted : 07 April 2015 23:48:55(UTC)
Dangermouse

United Kingdom   
Joined: 01/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 115
Location: Wales
Lima made some plastic British Rail MK1 coaches in HO in the '70s, they can look good if you detail them, add flush glazing and close coupling but are a bit crude as they come.

Fleischmann also made a HO Warship and for some reason Bulleid coaches (which date from the Southern Railway, and while they did survive into early BR days they wouldn't have turned up behind the Western Region-allocated Warships that often). Pity as the coaches look decent enough, but there weren't any RTR HO scale SR steamers.
You can never have too many Silberlinge
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Offline rei800  
#20 Posted : 22 April 2015 21:00:01(UTC)
rei800

Switzerland   
Joined: 27/02/2013(UTC)
Posts: 25
Location: zurich
Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post
hardly anybody can tell the difference between a 3073.1 and a 3073.2 anyway. (A truly mint and original 3073.1 with a very good box and an instruction manual would cost about 260-300.)


Hi all,

there is a minor difference between the 3073.1 and 3073.2. The 2 screws for the body are painted in light green like the roof. The 3073.2 on parts basis has silver screws.

greez
Rei
railroading is fun!
REI
collecting diecast and tinplate - what else?
Offline Mark_1602  
#21 Posted : 23 April 2015 15:40:05(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: rei800 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post
hardly anybody can tell the difference between a 3073.1 and a 3073.2 anyway. (A truly mint and original 3073.1 with a very good box and an instruction manual would cost about 260-300.)


Hi all,

there is a minor difference between the 3073.1 and 3073.2. The 2 screws for the body are painted in light green like the roof. The 3073.2 on parts basis has silver screws.

greez
Rei


Hi,

Yes, I know. I have the two versions, and I've often noticed on Ebay that sellers try to pass off a 3073.2 as a 3073.1. However, I remember one 3073 that was sold in a genuine light blue box with an original document, but the screws were not painted. It may still have been a real 3073.1, as it would have been difficult and expensive to find a real box and a manual for a 3073.2, so I suppose that Märklin stopped painting the screws at some point in time because that allowed them to save a little money. They started cutting corners around 1970, and the 3073.1 was produced until 1971. Unfortunately, such details are never mentioned in the numerous books that have been written about the Märklin company.

I'll check my two versions of the 3073 to find out if there are any differences in the wiring or the reversing units inside the locomotives.

Best regards,
Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
Offline Mark_1602  
#22 Posted : 23 April 2015 16:55:15(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Hi,

I've just had a look inside my 3073s, and the following photos reveal that the colour of the screws is not the only difference between a 3073.1 and a 3973 (3073.2). Here's my 3073.1. The stamp at the botton of the original box is one detail that the forgers do not copy, by the way. The 3073.1 has two plastic cogwheels, but the 3973 has metal ones. (To take the picture of the plastic cogwheels, I unscrewed the plastic cover at the bottom of the bogie on my 3073.1.) There are some differences in the wiring as well as the reversing units.

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

It's obvious that the 3973 has not been assembled by professional Märklin workers as one of the cables runs around one of the bars of the house, which cannot be removed. The inside of the 3073.1 makes a better impression in general, and the white cogwheels reveal that it's still mint. My 3973 is in very good condition and has no scratches at all, but it has probably been used a little.

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

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Most Ebay sellers would not show us such pictures, and they know why! Wink

Best regards,
Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline MS 800  
#23 Posted : 23 April 2015 20:54:18(UTC)
MS 800

Germany   
Joined: 31/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 36
Location: Ostalb, Württemberg
... and a third, minor, nevertheless very typical difference that many model railroaders do not take into account is the shape of the wheels.

Before 1973 - that is the year when the 3085 BR 003 was introduced - the shape of Märklin's loco wheels' flanges was "geometric" like drawn with a ruler, the edges and corners were sharp. From production start of the 3085, the profile was changed. The corner between the wheels' cylindrical bearing surface and the flange was rounded with a little radius. In addition the flange's face was no longer prduced conical but convex to some degree which led to the benefit that die wheels' diameter became smaller by some tenths of a mm.

What I described can very nicely be recognised from Mark's pictures, viz ...

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage


As to scale ... in the German "Forum alte Modellbahnen" someone purported that the 3073 was built in 1:76 to be acceptable in Britain and that this fact was the reason why it was not so well sold in Germany and the rest of Europe, but I have not found any evidence for that statement in any of the catalogues, prospectius or other publications like the "Märklin Magazin" of those days. He also stated that this difference would not be so obvious to most Märklin friends because in Britain the clearance outline was much smaller than on the continent therefore making up for some of the scale difference from 1:76 to 1:87.

The loco was run in between some Hornby Dubl0 material on a Dubl0 layout and it seemed to have matched quite well.

Best

MS 800
When we were kids we enjoyed our tinplate trains rattling over tinplate tracks - nowadays they're in need of sound decoders.
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Offline Mark_1602  
#24 Posted : 23 April 2015 21:49:03(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Hi MS 800,

Thanks, that's intriguing. I hadn't thought of the wheels. Is that true of all Märklin locomotives produced after 1973?

There are a few other minor differences that may be seen in my pictures:

1) Inscriptions on top of the motor shield: 1/2 for the 3073.1, but 0/2 for the 3973
2) The metal frames holding the lamps are fixed to the undercarriage in different ways: flattened for the 3073.1 (as usual), but twisted for the 3973.
3) Colour of the vertical lever on the reversing unit: dark on the 3073.1, but reddish on the 3973

It's funny how many threads deal with the topic of scale. Maybe there's some truth in the story, as the 3073 looks a little bigger than comparable locomotives, but Märklin only introduced exact scale in the second half of the 1970s. Before that, scale was approximate at best. Most of us would like our favourite vintage models to correspond to a certain scale, but Märklin didn't build them this way. That's not a criticism because exact scale wasn't important back then. The first Märklin passenger cars that were really 1:87 were released in the late 1970s (e.g 4139, 4140 etc.).

Best regards,
Mark

Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
Offline cwray  
#25 Posted : 07 December 2015 18:05:34(UTC)
cwray

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 2
Location: England, Basingstoke
Hi there,

Looking for some advice on what I have here... We are going through some stuff we have recently inherited. There was a box with loads of Marlin train stuff, I believe it's the M-Track. With this set there were a couple of engines, but I think this one might be worth something judging by finding this thread.

It is in the box which looks pretty good aside from a few rips. I don't know if it works as I have not built the set to find out. This would have been used way back when but otherwise it's just sat in a loft for about 30 years or more.

It has the original user manual with it also.

Can anyone advise whether this has any value and the best way to sell it? I guess eBay is the main place?


Thanks for any advice...


Chris

IMG_0581.jpgIMG_0583.jpgIMG_0585.jpgIMG_0584.jpgIMG_0580.jpgIMG_0582.jpg
Offline hennabm  
#26 Posted : 07 December 2015 18:13:28(UTC)
hennabm

Scotland   
Joined: 22/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 2,040
Location: Edinburgh,
Hi Chris

Welcome to the forum.

A nice find.ThumpUp

These were not too popular as Marklin never produced any rolling stock to go with it.
If it was well cared for before its hibernation, there is little to stop it from running again now it has been released from its box.

If you would like a good price then here on the forum may well be the best option for selling, so long as you are prepared for international shipping. I know one of our UK members has recently purchased one of these and he may be able to give a guide price.

Other than that ebay is perhaps as good as anywhere. But again there may well be international interest.

Mike
1957 - 1985 era
What's digital?
Offline kiwiAlan  
#27 Posted : 07 December 2015 20:43:53(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
I would be interested in having a look at what you have. I'm not too far away from Basingstoke.

I don't think I am going to have time this side of Christmas though. What is your timescale for disposal?

Alan
Offline mrmarklin  
#28 Posted : 08 December 2015 07:26:24(UTC)
mrmarklin

United States   
Joined: 27/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 890
Location: Burney, CA
Your best bet to sell is probably eBay. The item appears unused, although the box is not perfect. These Warships are somewhat collectible.BigGrin
From the People's Republik of Kalifornia
Offline cwray  
#29 Posted : 08 December 2015 10:15:42(UTC)
cwray

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 2
Location: England, Basingstoke
Hi guys,

Thanks for the replies.

I've no particular time scale for disposal, so give me a message on here after New Year and see whats what.

I think this was used at some point just not very much. My father-in-law bought it for his first child, but she wasn't interested trains so it probably got used a handful of times.

Chris
Offline kiwiAlan  
#30 Posted : 08 December 2015 15:19:30(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: cwray Go to Quoted Post
Hi guys,

Thanks for the replies.

I've no particular time scale for disposal, so give me a message on here after New Year and see whats what.

I think this was used at some point just not very much. My father-in-law bought it for his first child, but she wasn't interested trains so it probably got used a handful of times.

Chris


OK< I'll look at coming down in the week between Christmas and new year if you are home. I am off work that week, so almost any day will suit, subject to the wifes timetable.

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