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Offline IsItDigitalAlready?  
#1 Posted : 30 March 2015 15:58:53(UTC)
IsItDigitalAlready?

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: Nevada, Reno
To establish a programming track on my layout (controlled by a Roco/Fleischmann Z21) I would like to use a spur as a programming track. Has anyone found a solution to insulating an M-Track connection using a commercially available product?

Of course the center rail connector is easy to isolate (and I have plenty of tracks where the connector tongue is broken off). But the rails, being almost 3mm tall (about 0.118", or "code 118"), and made to Marklin's profile rather than standard USA rail profile, make me wonder what size (and brand) will work.

Also, since I only need two of these items, I don't want to have to buy a bag of 144 for $15.00 (or whatever) - a couple of bucks, tops!
Bob
Cold Springs (Reno), in far Western Nevada
It's all Gordon's fault!
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 30 March 2015 16:19:44(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
You can cut the outer rails and fill the gaps with glue.
AFAIK many people do this for contact tracks, but this can also be done for the programming track.

Yes, insulating rail joiners sound like a good idea.
Current K track is code 100 and it seems there are insulating H0 joiners from Roco or Fleischmann. Just hearsay, I never tried them.

Or use C track for the programming track ...
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline NZMarklinist  
#3 Posted : 30 March 2015 16:25:57(UTC)
NZMarklinist

New Zealand   
Joined: 15/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,757
Location: Auckland NZ
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post


Current K track is code 100 and it seems there are insulating H0 joiners from Roco or Fleischmann. Just hearsay, I never tried them.

...


And Atlas, I have some Blink

Glen
Auckland NZ

" Every Marklin layout needs a V200, a Railbus and a Banana car", not to mention a few Black and red Steamers, oh and the odd Elok !

CS1 Reloaded, Touch Cab, C Track Modules, K track layout all under construction. Currently Insider
Offline IsItDigitalAlready?  
#4 Posted : 30 March 2015 16:40:34(UTC)
IsItDigitalAlready?

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: Nevada, Reno
I would rather not cut the rails - and, of course, the M-Track metal base would provide continuity anyway.

OK - so code 100 it is. I guess.

I'm going to San Jose next weekend and maybe The Train Shop will have them - I'll take a piece of track with me so I can be certain!
Bob
Cold Springs (Reno), in far Western Nevada
It's all Gordon's fault!
Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 30 March 2015 17:18:04(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
You were asking about M track but I have written about K track. Sorry! Blushing

Use old pieces of M track - maybe you can make the rails compatible with rail joiners using small pliers.

Plan B: Remove the rail joiners and screw the M track pieces tightly to the ground.
Plan C would be transition tracks to C track or K track.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#6 Posted : 31 March 2015 13:59:59(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,067
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: NZMarklinist Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post


Current K track is code 100 and it seems there are insulating H0 joiners from Roco or Fleischmann. Just hearsay, I never tried them.

...


And Atlas, I have some Blink



Peco also do them.

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Offline kiwiAlan  
#7 Posted : 31 March 2015 14:01:49(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,067
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
You were asking about M track but I have written about K track. Sorry! Blushing

Use old pieces of M track - maybe you can make the rails compatible with rail joiners using small pliers.

Plan B: Remove the rail joiners and screw the M track pieces tightly to the ground.
Plan C would be transition tracks to C track or K track.


Another alternative is to have the programming track as a completely seperate track, not connected to the layout at all.
Offline IsItDigitalAlready?  
#8 Posted : 31 March 2015 14:54:36(UTC)
IsItDigitalAlready?

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: Nevada, Reno
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
You were asking about M track but I have written about K track. Sorry! Blushing

Use old pieces of M track - maybe you can make the rails compatible with rail joiners using small pliers.

Plan B: Remove the rail joiners and screw the M track pieces tightly to the ground.
Plan C would be transition tracks to C track or K track.


Another alternative is to have the programming track as a completely seperate track, not connected to the layout at all.


I will definitely have that on the workbench, but I also want one on the layout.
Bob
Cold Springs (Reno), in far Western Nevada
It's all Gordon's fault!
Offline NZMarklinist  
#9 Posted : 31 March 2015 15:23:05(UTC)
NZMarklinist

New Zealand   
Joined: 15/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,757
Location: Auckland NZ
Honestly Bob, from what I have learned around Marklin Digital for 10 years, reading & hearing about other peoples experiences with M Track you are on a hiding to nowhere trying to do what you are doing with M Track.

Make a brave decision and build your layout in C or K track, you'll be pleased you did in the long run !. C Track in particular is very digital friendly as is K track ! I am building my layout in K Track but intend to use C for the hidden Station ! ( Lots of Computer and digital contacts down there ! )
I had M track when I was a kid and yes it's nostalgic, and maybe cheap, but that's about all ! It won't be cheap when a dead short circuit fries your Z21 Scared
Glen
Auckland NZ

" Every Marklin layout needs a V200, a Railbus and a Banana car", not to mention a few Black and red Steamers, oh and the odd Elok !

CS1 Reloaded, Touch Cab, C Track Modules, K track layout all under construction. Currently Insider
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Offline IsItDigitalAlready?  
#10 Posted : 31 March 2015 15:42:15(UTC)
IsItDigitalAlready?

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: Nevada, Reno
Thanks for the heads-up, Glen, but "I know what I'm doing." Confused

I did consider the alternatives to M-Track (of which I have a ton). I am not in a position at present to chuck all that and replace it with (really beautiful) C-Track. Besides, how hard could it be? Cool

In defense of my approach, I have two prmary things going for me (IMHO): experience with the vagaries of M-Track, albeit on analog systems, and an utter lack of arrogance regarding my abilities - "Double-Check" is my middle name. I also have some analytic skills, as well as training and experience (oh so long ago) in systems engineering, so I tend to be cautious and conservative. [need pocket-protector smiley]

Hmmm... Maybe we need an M-Track/DCC forum?
Bob
Cold Springs (Reno), in far Western Nevada
It's all Gordon's fault!
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Offline Graham HO  
#11 Posted : 01 April 2015 03:14:08(UTC)
Graham HO

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/07/2008(UTC)
Posts: 125
Take a small piece of notepaper - not much larger than the central contact tongue. place it over the lower tongue - then push the track ends together - job done works every time.
Offline mike c  
#12 Posted : 01 April 2015 03:26:34(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,865
Location: Montreal, QC
In order to set up a safe programming track on a layout using M Track, I would recommend that you find a pair of the 7339 manual signals. Each set came with two half sections of track, one with a signal and the other with a isolated centre rail. To set up a safe programming track, you should position the first signal at the beginning of the track and the second a few track lengths along. This will create an isolated zone that is neither part of the main layout, nor of the programming track. Trains can be driven into this safe zone while the first signal is green and the second red. This allows you to drive into the section. Once the locomotive is within the section, turn the first switch red, isolating the section from the main power. You can then switch the second switch to green, which will then allow you to control the locomotive for programming. Once programming is completed, manoeuvre the loco back into the isolated section, switch both signals to red. You can then switch the first signal to green and control the loco via the main controller (layout) again.

If you use only a simple cardboard divider between main (layout) and programming track, you can damage the equipment due to the voltage that is transferred from one system to the other as the slider contacts both sections at the same time.

The two isolated half-sections can be used at other points along the layout where you need to interrupt the centre power studs. Alternately, you can place one of the isolated tracks between the two signals, which will create an absolute division between main and programming sections to avoid the possibility of both green signals being mistakenly activated.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline Hoffmann  
#13 Posted : 01 April 2015 04:04:11(UTC)
Hoffmann

Canada   
Joined: 25/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,106
Location: Guelph, Ontario


Hello Bob,

What you are looking for is Marklin M-Contact Track # 5105 it is the same length as a Standard Straight Piece and has a short Insulated outer Rail, see Picture
Hoffmann attached the following image(s):
003 (800x600).jpg
004 (800x600).jpg
marklin-eh
Offline H0  
#14 Posted : 01 April 2015 08:09:37(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Graham HO Go to Quoted Post
Take a small piece of notepaper - not much larger than the central contact tongue. place it over the lower tongue - then push the track ends together - job done works every time.
You picked the right date for your post. LOL

This thread is about rail joiners, not centre rail tongues.

The TO needs insulation on inner and outer rails (both outer rails).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline mike c  
#15 Posted : 02 April 2015 05:56:35(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,865
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: Hoffmann Go to Quoted Post


Hello Bob,

What you are looking for is Marklin M-Contact Track # 5105 it is the same length as a Standard Straight Piece and has a short Insulated outer Rail, see Picture


If Bob is setting up a programming track as he mentioned in his first post, the track that you refer to will NOT be of any use.
That track has a small section that is isolated from the rest of the metal and track so that when a uninsulated wheel passes over it, it completes the circuit and can be used to activate a relay (e.g. for a road crossing or signal). This track will not interrupt the voltage between one end of the track and the other.

If you want to separate a programming track from the main line, you need to isolate the centre rail as I described above. You do NOT need to isolate the rails from each other.

My solution above offers the best transition from main line to programming track and there is no need to isolate the rail sections as long as the third rail is isolated. The danger that I mentioned of a voltage spike when the slider contacts both main line and programming track can be averted by using the two signal zone between the two power sources. This can equally be done without signals by simply setting up an independent power supply for the isolated section that can be powered by either main line or programming track with a two way switch (Main line - Programming). to avoid direct change from one to the other.
http://ecx.images-amazon...images/I/418dqHr1p2L.jpg

If I am missing something here, somebody please explain why you would need to separate the rail sections (isolate them from each other) to use a programming track? I have not worked with the Roco controller, but if using it to run DCC on Maerklin M- Track, you should be able to have a common ground without danger.
If it is required, my recommendation would be to use a M to C track adapter and then snap off the appropriate contacts at the C Track end of the rail. If you want, you can then connect back to M Track on the other side of use C Track for the entire programming track.

Regards

Mike C
Offline H0  
#16 Posted : 02 April 2015 08:10:53(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
If I am missing something here, somebody please explain why you would need to separate the rail sections (isolate them from each other) to use a programming track? I have not worked with the Roco controller, but if using it to run DCC on Maerklin M- Track, you should be able to have a common ground without danger.
Nope, no common ground here. Central Station and Central Station 2 also require full insulation (centre rail and outer rails) to set up a programming track. IIRC same applies to Intellibox.

I would probably use a pair of 24951 transition tracks with four pieces 74030 in between (buy 2x 24951 and 1x 74030 - many dealers may sell the 24951 in pairs).

The other option I might try is the "air gap": two M tracks without rail joiners, screwed down tightly with a folded sheet of paper between them while fixing the screws.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Shamu  
#17 Posted : 02 April 2015 12:29:53(UTC)
Shamu

Australia   
Joined: 12/07/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,068
Location: In a building site in Yeppoon
Hi Bob,

Just a thought but do you have a turntable ? Might be able to do something with one of the spurs.
Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
Offline biedmatt  
#18 Posted : 02 April 2015 13:31:35(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
An air gap is probably the best route for all tracks, especially M.

I'd make the program track a section of the main line. Run the loko, decide the change desired, stop on the program track, make program change and run again to see if you got the desired results. The isolated program track allows you to program one loko while leaving others on your layout. The re-write is only transmitted to the program track, not the whole layout. When it is easy to make changes, you'll make them instead of just call it "good enough". The program track (at least with ECoS) has the same short circuit protection as the mainline, so it doesn't have to be some section stuck out of the way.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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H0
Offline kiwiAlan  
#19 Posted : 03 April 2015 14:15:41(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,067
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
If I am missing something here, somebody please explain why you would need to separate the rail sections (isolate them from each other) to use a programming track? I have not worked with the Roco controller, but if using it to run DCC on Maerklin M- Track, you should be able to have a common ground without danger.
Nope, no common ground here. Central Station and Central Station 2 also require full insulation (centre rail and outer rails) to set up a programming track. IIRC same applies to Intellibox.

I would probably use a pair of 24951 transition tracks with four pieces 74030 in between (buy 2x 24951 and 1x 74030 - many dealers may sell the 24951 in pairs).

The other option I might try is the "air gap": two M tracks without rail joiners, screwed down tightly with a folded sheet of paper between them while fixing the screws.


I had arrived at this same conclusion, insert a small amount of C track into the M track layout. The cost will be minimal, and you will have an ideal programming section.
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H0
Offline el Gato Gordo  
#20 Posted : 11 April 2015 19:19:34(UTC)
el Gato Gordo

United States   
Joined: 05/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 4
Location: Colorado, Colorado Springs
Are we over-engineering this? Why not paint the rail ends and insides of the joiners with clear nail polish, let dry thoroughly, join the two pieces of track and test for continuity? At the low voltages we use, that should break conductivity.

Just an idea, Bro'

Gord
Offline Webmaster  
#21 Posted : 11 April 2015 20:30:28(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
Maybe a small bit of thin plastic or more "nailpolish" between the railbed edges too in addition to the "nailpolish"at the joiners.
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline mike c  
#22 Posted : 14 April 2015 02:49:58(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,865
Location: Montreal, QC
For M Track, simply coating the rail ends and the joiners with nail polish will not suffice, as the entire trackbed is part of the ground (return). The best option would be to use a pair of M-Track to C-Track conversion tracks and simply to cut the contacts that pass the current from one C-Track section to the other, which would create a 100% isolated break between the two. You should also make sure that you can safely isolate the power supply of the programming track (cut off switch) so that voltage is not transmitted into the output connection as a locomotive or train moves across the bridge from one section to the other, as both the metal wheels and the slider can bridge the two sections that you are trying to isolate.

Regards

Mike C
Offline el Gato Gordo  
#23 Posted : 15 April 2015 13:02:33(UTC)
el Gato Gordo

United States   
Joined: 05/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 4
Location: Colorado, Colorado Springs
Mike - With the Z21 system that he is using, there is a Main lead and a Programming lead. Both can be left hooked up at all times, and trains run directly onto and off of a programming track without any difficulty. The only need for isolation is when actually doing programming. I am using the Z21 system on my N scale track that way.

Gord
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H0
Offline H0  
#24 Posted : 15 April 2015 15:43:11(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: el Gato Gordo Go to Quoted Post
The only need for isolation is when actually doing programming.
This is not specific to the Z21. It's the same with Central Station, ESU ECoS, Intellibox, ...
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline NZMarklinist  
#25 Posted : 15 April 2015 16:45:34(UTC)
NZMarklinist

New Zealand   
Joined: 15/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,757
Location: Auckland NZ
Originally Posted by: IsItDigitalAlready? Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for the heads-up, Glen, but "I know what I'm doing." Confused

I did consider the alternatives to M-Track (of which I have a ton). I am not in a position at present to chuck all that and replace it with (really beautiful) C-Track. Besides, how hard could it be? Cool

In defense of my approach, I have two prmary things going for me (IMHO): experience with the vagaries of M-Track, albeit on analog systems, and an utter lack of arrogance regarding my abilities - "Double-Check" is my middle name. I also have some analytic skills, as well as training and experience (oh so long ago) in systems engineering, so I tend to be cautious and conservative. [need pocket-protector smiley]

Hmmm... Maybe we need an M-Track/DCC forum?


Hello Bob,

Sorry I did not see your reply before. On my analogue M track layout in my youth, insulating the centre rail was as simple as a small piece of thin cardboard, probably from a cigarette packet Scared (Lung cancer took my Mother at age 62 just 30 years ago last month Crying )

The outer rails, well, you could remove the joiners or "fish plates" as they are called in 32/1 scale, however if the track bases are touching there will be contact, so you'll need to invent a way, or create a permanent gap, to ensure isolation ! However traction tyres don't like gaps in the rails Blink

No we don't need an M Track DCC forum, you'll be about the only contributor Bored

Best of luck ThumpUp
Glen
Auckland NZ

" Every Marklin layout needs a V200, a Railbus and a Banana car", not to mention a few Black and red Steamers, oh and the odd Elok !

CS1 Reloaded, Touch Cab, C Track Modules, K track layout all under construction. Currently Insider
Offline el Gato Gordo  
#26 Posted : 15 April 2015 17:04:30(UTC)
el Gato Gordo

United States   
Joined: 05/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 4
Location: Colorado, Colorado Springs
Okay, it seems obvious for now. Insulate the center tongue with a piece of paper, remove the rail joiners, and cut a piece of thin cardboard to the profile of the roadbed to insert between the two pieces of track. Screw down the two pieces with the cardboard between, and the problem is solved. No special track, no nail polish, etc.

When he gets back from vacation (can a retired person really be on vacation? how does that work?), he'll be able to proceed.

Gordon

Offline marklinrunner  
#27 Posted : 23 May 2015 18:52:04(UTC)
marklinrunner

Canada   
Joined: 13/01/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1
Hi Bob,

I have done this by using 2 plastic rail joiners to isolate the outside rails. I then cut a small piece of hard plastic ( I just used a piece of the hard plastic that come wrapped around everything we buy today) and inserted it between the 2 sections of track. This completely isolates the ground. You know how to isolate the center rail. I then installed a 2 way switch so that in one position normal track power was provided but not programming and in the other position programming but not power. This way you will never have the programming and track power on at the same time to this section of track. I will attach a couple of pictures to show the rail joiners.

Carlo

marklinrunner attached the following image(s):
Isolated track.jpg
Rail joiners.jpg
Offline IsItDigitalAlready?  
#28 Posted : 23 May 2015 18:58:18(UTC)
IsItDigitalAlready?

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: Nevada, Reno
What brand/model plastic rail joiners did you find that worked for you?
Bob
Cold Springs (Reno), in far Western Nevada
It's all Gordon's fault!
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