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Offline frickwg  
#1 Posted : 19 March 2015 22:30:36(UTC)
frickwg

United States   
Joined: 27/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 73
Location: CALIFORNIA, SAN CLEMENTE
I would like to add some M83 decoders (60831) for track switches. They can be powered from the track power. I would prefer to use an independent power supply to reduce demand on the digital system and provide a bit more “oomph” for the switches. Nn the USA a 120v Märklin switched mode power supply, 66365, would be perfect. I have one and the plug fits.

BUT, the M83 manual says you must have a 60822 “k83/m83/m84 Universal Power Supply Unit” (that looks like a filter box to make the FCC in the USA happy) AND a 66365 a Switched-Mode Power Supply.

Do you need a 60822? Can you just use a 66365?Confused Confused

The April / May issue of Märklin Magazin says:
"The decoder can also be fed from a separate switched-mode power pack 66361. In addition to this power pack, a suppressor unit 60822 would be required. Important: Without the use of this extra unit, compliance with the regulations on electromagnetic compatibility (EMC) cannot be guarantied. Please therefore never fail to use this electronic unit."



PS, I can’t find anywhere in the USA that sells a 60822.

Willis Frick
sherlock1@cox.net
Offline clapcott  
#2 Posted : 20 March 2015 00:49:48(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Willis,

The 60822 has not shipped yet.
Since Oct 2013 (when Marklin announced it - Note: AFTER the shipment of the first M83) its ETA has constantly been delayed with the latest stab in the dark stating 2Q2015. I suggest you don't hold your breath.

Marklin service have responded to a query about the reference to a k83 by saying "it makes no sense", but have otherwise been dumb on any details what so ever.

So... not withstanding the issues with warranty, I can report that the 66361/5 works well with a 60831(M83) and without the 60822.
(I do use a 66361 myself)
Peter
Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 02 January 2016 22:34:25(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
There is a German post on Stummi's Forum that shows and explains the internals of the 60822:
http://stummiforum.de/vi...c.php?p=1483847#p1483847

A few capacitors, a few inductors and diodes - and a polyfuse as overload protection.

The author writes that the 60822 was not technically needed, but improves radio interference suppression and may protect your decoders from letting out the holy smoke.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Mark5  
#4 Posted : 06 January 2016 06:06:52(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
That is good news. How many m83s would you string together for one 66365 power source?

And since I am using a 120v/230v converter that claims an output of 200w, how many 66365s would I be able to plug into that with an extension.
Guessing I would need more currency converters.

- Mark

DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
Offline clapcott  
#5 Posted : 06 January 2016 06:51:06(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
..., but improves radio interference suppression and may protect your decoders from letting out the holy smoke.


I have asked this before, but will ask it again because I am dumb...
How can you generate radio interference from DC power?

If, as was originally announced but has failed to be delivered, the 60822 was ALSO capable of taking input from a legacy AC transformer, then there may have been a candidate - but that train of thought is moot.

Anyone wanting to power k83s would be far better off investing in a separate booster.

The real , practical , issue as I see it is not how many m8X can be connected to a single power supply, but how do you interconnect them?
If m83s are distributed around the layout then there is a need for a D9-D9 extension cable which is just so last century and which Marklin haven't bothered to offer.

As to letting the smoke out! If a single m83 has specifications for 3A then the 6636x (36VA/16V = 2A) will fail well before that.
Also if, without the external power, a string of m8x devices can be used from just the controller red/brown , where is the equivalent warning for that power source.

I think the business case for this unit is zero.





Peter
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Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 06 January 2016 08:21:23(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
How can you generate radio interference from DC power?
Maybe they just don't trust the overload protection of their power supplies.
The PCB has a marked place for a bridge rectifier. Maybe it was primarily designed for AC, but is merely a placebo with overload protection since AC was dropped.

As far as I understand the problem with radio interference from DC arises when the load changes. When the decoder activates a solenoid then the load will increase suddenly. When the 74491 reaches the end position, the micro switch will reliably disconnect the solenoid and the load will be zero again.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline kiwiAlan  
#7 Posted : 06 January 2016 13:43:05(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
..., but improves radio interference suppression and may protect your decoders from letting out the holy smoke.


I have asked this before, but will ask it again because I am dumb...
How can you generate radio interference from DC power?



It depends how the DC power is produced.

If it is a battery, then no EMC is produced - but if the battery is being charged then the charger may be a source of EMC - e.g. car radios often produced generator or alternator hash on the sound output when the engine was running. This is an annoyance, but even more of a problem when fitting any form of radio telephone because the transmitted signal also contains that hash as modulation and that can really splatter across a whole radio band annoying all users.

If the DC is being produced from an AC fed power supply, then the level of EMC depends on the type of power supply. Even old type iron transformers with rectifier diodes are well known for producing EMC hash at the AC zero crossing point because of a characteristic of semiconductor diodes known as 'reverse recovery time' which means they don't stop conducting immediately the voltage across them reverses. Old type 1N400x series diodes were well known for this, requiring 0.1uF capacitors across the diodes to stop the resulting hash. This hash is generally recognizable because it has a high 50/60 Hz frequency content.

If the DC is being produced by a power supply using a switchmode regulator from either an AC or DC source then the switchmode regulator is good at producing broadband hash if not properly designed. Such hash is often mitigated by using molded in or clamp on ferrite chokes on either or both the supply and output leads.

Just because a voltage is 'DC' it doesn't mean it doesn't have a noise signal on it. Then any wire lead fed by that DC supply makes a good aerial to radiate that hash.

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Offline Mark5  
#8 Posted : 06 January 2016 22:35:36(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
So if I understand the answer to my question correctly,
then using a 66361/5 for even one m83 is useless? ...
...or is the 3A specification the maximum a m83 would possibly draw, thus first drawing from the 2A of the 66365/1 and then drawing the rest of the power of the control unit/track connections B/0 for additional power if needed? Or is it always in reality drawing from the control/unit track connections and the additional power pack is just a paperweight costing me additional 65cent Canadian dollars?
- Mark

Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
...,

The real, practical, issue as I see it is not how many m8X can be connected to a single power supply, but how do you interconnect them? If m83s are distributed around the layout then there is a need for a D9-D9 extension cable which is just so last century and which Marklin haven't bothered to offer.

As to letting the smoke out! If a single m83 has specifications for 3A then the 6636x (36VA/16V = 2A) will fail well before that.
Also if, without the external power, a string of m8x devices can be used from just the controller red/brown , where is the equivalent warning for that power source.

I think the business case for this unit is zero.


DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
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