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Offline Tom Jessop  
#1 Posted : 04 March 2015 23:54:37(UTC)
Tom Jessop

Australia   
Joined: 14/12/2002(UTC)
Posts: 800
Location: Newcastle NSW Australia


I am interested in what methods that other's on this forum use when laying permanent K Track for their layout ? At the present time I am using Mekur foam underlay & then placing my K track on top & nailing it down to the base board ,this presents a unlevel road bed as where there are no nails the foam raises the track . If the nails are only partially retained the track sits on top of the underlay but when a engine passes thru the track then sits down into the road bed leaving protruding nail heads which could catch the pickup slider underneath . Should I just use nails to temporarily secure the track & road bed while I spray a diluted solution of wood work glue over the complete lot & wait to dry then remove the nails ?


Thanks in advance ,

Cheers Tom in Oz.
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Offline Rinus  
#2 Posted : 05 March 2015 23:30:50(UTC)
Rinus


Joined: 20/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Wageningen, The Netherlands
Hi Tom,

Thinking abaout uing the Merkur trackbed myself. How is it? And how does it look?

Used the ballasting method on my previous layout. Good looking but it caused some reliability problems (bad contact). Also its very difficult to remove your track in case of a new lay out. On the plus side, its quite fun, not too expensive, rewarding and not that difficult.

Looking forward to your reply.

Rinus
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Offline Robert Davies  
#3 Posted : 06 March 2015 00:06:22(UTC)
Robert Davies

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Worcestershire, UK
With all the Merkur I have, the track is held so firmly in the underlay that you don't need to fix it. However, you can glue the underlay to the baseboard if want to, but the key is to have a truly level baseboard.
Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0)
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Offline mrmarklin  
#4 Posted : 06 March 2015 01:32:55(UTC)
mrmarklin

United States   
Joined: 27/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 889
Location: Burney, CA
I think the real problem is the use of nails. One cannot easily control the depth of the nail into the baseboard.

It's very easy, even using screws to depress the ties too much, creating elevation changes, and squeezing the rails together too narrowly.Crying

The only case where I can see the Merkur raising the track would be on a flex-cyrve.
From the People's Republik of Kalifornia
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Offline NZMarklinist  
#5 Posted : 06 March 2015 06:04:58(UTC)
NZMarklinist

New Zealand   
Joined: 15/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,757
Location: Auckland NZ
Hi Tom,

From the "Porsche Traumwerk" thread examine these pics where track work is concerned ! The K Tracks all use Merkur Ballast underlay so check them out;

http://www.modellanlagen...rien/287b/startseite.htm

MiWula uses it , I think the stuff does hold the track so well that gleuing the Merkur to the track base is all you need. I intend to use it for my BTW area but have the Noch Mossmer foam track ballast/underlay for other areas of my small layout.

PJ from Tasmania swears by it and Patrick (newmb) has used it for his layout too, so check their layout threads on this forum

Track nails are very old school ThumbDown
Glen
Auckland NZ

" Every Marklin layout needs a V200, a Railbus and a Banana car", not to mention a few Black and red Steamers, oh and the odd Elok !

CS1 Reloaded, Touch Cab, C Track Modules, K track layout all under construction. Currently Insider
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Offline Tom Jessop  
#6 Posted : 06 March 2015 09:54:22(UTC)
Tom Jessop

Australia   
Joined: 14/12/2002(UTC)
Posts: 800
Location: Newcastle NSW Australia


I have attached some pics of Merkur underlay with some K track on it , I quite like the look it gives even without the track being secured with nails , yep I know Í'm old school in a fashion but you have to start somewhere with ideas & try to improve , that's what this forum is good for , ask a question & pretty soon there will be many answers . I have also a few pics of a track base which is made in Oz called Trackrite . It is a foam base very similar to insulation which is wrapped around pipes to stop freeze up . They don't have a website but I have found a reseller that advertises it .

http://www.brunelhobbies.../trackrite/trackrite.htm

It is a flat material which has a chamfer on the side to look like a embankment . The track would have to be glued to the roadbed which in turn will be glued to the baseboard . This leaves the problem of Ballast being applied & possibly removed at some later stage if not happy with the trackwork you have previously done . I have seen Patrick's & PJ's layout segments on here & very impressed with presentation .

The first 2 pics are of Merkur , the next are of Trackrite without track & with track . The trackrite underlay is a off cut which I was given to see what it looked like with Marklin track , I was going to cut to size to fit underneath M track as a sound deadner but there was the problem of sound being transmitted via the retaining screws . Originally with M track I was going to glue the trackrite to the inside of the track shell but this wouldn't work as there is the Stud contact line underneath . More thought needed there .

Cheers Tom in Oz
Tom Jessop attached the following image(s):
DSCF0791.JPG
DSCF0798.JPG
DSCF0799.JPG
DSCF0801.JPG
DSCF0803.JPG
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Offline NewMB  
#7 Posted : 08 March 2015 08:04:14(UTC)
NewMB

Germany   
Joined: 26/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 668
Location: Erftstadt
I am using the Merkur underlay as i find to have very realistic "stones"..... Easy to lay, easy to attach track but a total nightmare to secure to the wood base, so i decided to use woodglue and apply pressure for a few hours on the section just glued. Sits like a mountain once dry now.

On the sections where i don't use the Merkur trackbed, i bought rolls (like wallpaper rolls) from Merkur that have exactly the same stones and simply placed the track on top of that. Screwed down of course. Looks and works great.

The only problem i see with Merkur is the very long delivery times of at least 2 weeks, even here in Germany where they are made so one needs to plan very carefully in what order one does the layout work.

Oh, i will have plenty of new, unused, Merkur trackbed leftovers once i am finished with the phase 3 (yet to start) track laying if anyone would be interested...
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Offline hxmiesa  
#8 Posted : 09 March 2015 12:12:15(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,519
Location: Spain
I have used it too. I was resonably satisfied with it. -And its uniform aspect certainly looks good!
I think also MiWuLa swears by it...
Indeed, the only problems is when you fasten the track-screws too tight.
I used double-sided tape (for carpets) to hold the stuff to the wooden ramps.
If you remove it carefully, it can even be reused on the next layout. They also sell loose gravel, to make-up in between areas and repair damages.
In the end I stopped using it; because of the cost and because of difficulties in sourcing it. (Now I am using Friskies Aquarium Deco Sand, which is virtually dirt-cheap, and can be given a look almost identical to the Merkur stuff.)
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline PJMärklin  
#9 Posted : 10 March 2015 10:34:21(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,204
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: NZMarklinist Go to Quoted Post
Hi Tom,

From the "Porsche Traumwerk" thread examine these pics where track work is concerned ! The K Tracks all use Merkur Ballast underlay so check them out;

http://www.modellanlagen...rien/287b/startseite.htm

MiWula uses it , I think the stuff does hold the track so well that gleuing the Merkur to the track base is all you need. I intend to use it for my BTW area but have the Noch Mossmer foam track ballast/underlay for other areas of my small layout.

PJ from Tasmania swears by it and Patrick (newmb) has used it for his layout too, so check their layout threads on this forum

Track nails are very old school ThumbDown


Hello Tom,

Sorry for my late post but I have been away.
As you might have seen from my posts in the past, I had previously used the soft foam trackbed by Mössmer (now sold by noch) but this disintegrated in time. It was also very soft and I had to be very careful how much the fixing screw through the track drew the track units into/compressed the foam.

I have been very happy with the merkur I have used in my current layout.

UserPostedImage

Since it is a very firm type of "foam" it grips the track quite tightly

UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage

It is nicely prototypical in that only a bit of the sleepers protrude above the ballast level.

UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage

and the screws I used to fix it could be more carefully applied so as not to compress the track unit into the merkur trackbed.

UserPostedImage

Now, having said that, if I was doing it again I would not use screws at all, but would just fit the track into the merkur bed and whiteglue the undersurface of the bed to the layout surface.

UserPostedImage

Happy track laying !

Oh, these chaps are not laying track, but laughing at all our fussing around about it !! Australian Kookaburras !!

UserPostedImage

Regards,


PJ
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#10 Posted : 10 March 2015 12:03:07(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,067
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post


Oh, these chaps are not laying track, but laughing at all our fussing around about it !! Australian Kookaburras !!

UserPostedImage

Regards,


PJ


Well, at least they are not members of the parrot or cockatoo families that take great delight in unwinding the wire ... Scared Scared
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#11 Posted : 21 March 2015 16:46:29(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
I am a big fan of the Merkur roadbed with K-Track.

I used it in my previous layout and I am reusing the same tracks and roadbed on my new layout.

I do not glue or nail it down. I use the electrical connections through the baseboard to hold it all in place. Then when landscaping is added, there is enough glue to hold everything in place.

As has been mentioned, all the big professional layout use it.

The straight sections hold the tracks perfectly straight (very important) and the flexible roadbed handles the flex track too.

I previous used the 64,6mm spaced straight sections but my new layout has 57mm spacing in the station, so I ran the Merkur through my table saw to cut it down to fit 57mm track spacing!

I need to take some pictures, as I have almost completed my main station tracks.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline applor  
#12 Posted : 13 July 2016 07:50:06(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,652
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Bit of an old topic but question is relevant to Merkur.

Have you guys used the plain Merkur foam as the trackbed in hidden areas, specifically with curves or in a helix?

I have quite a few helixes and I am wondering if I should try and bend the Merkur foam to make the corners, or to cut the foam into corners.

This is the 901070 100x10cm base bed sheets, 4mm high.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline hxmiesa  
#13 Posted : 13 July 2016 11:03:26(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,519
Location: Spain
Unless your radius is really huge (>>1m) you must cut it...
-or- if you can cut it right down the middle, splitting it in two 5cm wide sections, you can get away with bending a smaller radius.
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline michelvr  
#14 Posted : 13 July 2016 15:56:11(UTC)
michelvr

Canada   
Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,287
Hello Tom,

The words written below are a warning that you should heed the advice from these very knowledgable users!

Merkur, Merkur, Merkur nothing else but Merkur!

As one who ballasted my layout with Noch ballast brown 09172 and Noch ballast glue 61134. I would advise you to use Merkur underlay as I would never attempt to ballast Marklin K track in this life or the next or the next after!

The culprit for my scorn is the peko in the middle of the track. When you ballast on K track the peko prevents the small stones from settling into the tie spaces. To clear the peko you have to clean each Sad EACH!ThumbDown peko which is a nightmare on a large layout. I have some very colourful language Blink Angry Blushing Cursing Mad OhMyGod Scared Sneaky ThumbDown Woot to describe the process for it but let's just say the process is labour intensive and tediously inefficient! Cursing

This advice is from a ballasting expert! Expert? The best there is! BigGrin


The only nice comment about ballasting by hand is it looks good!

Michel

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Offline PMPeter  
#15 Posted : 13 July 2016 16:39:12(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,272
Location: Port Moody, BC
Hi Michel,

I'm puzzled by your response. Why do you say the pukos prevent ballast material from filling the spaces between the ties? I don't have a problem other than occasionally ballast getting stuck on top of a puko during the gluing, which can easily be removed or gets knocked off by the slider.

Cheers
Peter
Offline michelvr  
#16 Posted : 13 July 2016 17:31:10(UTC)
michelvr

Canada   
Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,287
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
Hi Michel,

I'm puzzled by your response. Why do you say the pukos prevent ballast material from filling the spaces between the ties? I don't have a problem other than occasionally ballast getting stuck on top of a puko during the gluing, which can easily be removed or gets knocked off by the slider.

Cheers
Peter


Hi Peter,

My response is an accurate reflection of the issues with ballasting Marklin K track!

After ballast over 100 pieces of 2205 Flex track and over 40 turnouts, left, right and double slips it is not a feat for the faint of heart!

Offline PMPeter  
#17 Posted : 13 July 2016 19:54:15(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,272
Location: Port Moody, BC
Totally agree with your comment regarding ballasting of K track switches. That is tedious and Merkur roadbed in those areas would be far easier.

However, I still do not see how the pukos affect ballast from filling in the areas between the ties. It is not that much different than ballasting 2 rail standard track. If anything the pukos tend to keep the ballast slightly higher between the ties in the centre depending on your ballast spreading/brushing technique, certainly not preventing ballast from filling the space.

Cheers
Peter
Offline applor  
#18 Posted : 13 July 2016 23:25:09(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,652
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
Unless your radius is really huge (>>1m) you must cut it...
-or- if you can cut it right down the middle, splitting it in two 5cm wide sections, you can get away with bending a smaller radius.


I am talking about R4/5 parallel double track and also have R3 single track.

I was thinking the middle split may work for the R4/5.

Cutting it into pieces will be a pain though - the sheets are only 10cm wide. Unless I buy cork roll instead so I can cut them properly to shape.

modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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Offline applor  
#19 Posted : 14 July 2016 00:36:04(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,652
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Also, I planned to use foam sheets under the Bahnbetriebswerk which means I have to ballast by hand including 5 turnouts.

I am a bit anxious now after reports of how much a pain ballasting is but at least its just 5 turnouts and a relatively small area and it should look great when finished.

I am doing this because in those areas there is no ballast profile in real life so the whole area must be level and was going to use black ballast to accurately reflect how dirty those areas are.


The only thing holding me back from my merkur order is determining how many sheets I need for the helixes, or to use cork/alternative instead.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline hxmiesa  
#20 Posted : 18 July 2016 15:09:48(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,519
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
Unless your radius is really huge (>>1m) you must cut it...
-or- if you can cut it right down the middle, splitting it in two 5cm wide sections, you can get away with bending a smaller radius.

I am talking about R4/5 parallel double track and also have R3 single track.
I was thinking the middle split may work for the R4/5.
Cutting it into pieces will be a pain though - the sheets are only 10cm wide. Unless I buy cork roll instead so I can cut them properly to shape.

Actually; That is what I use; Rolls of 2mm cork-underlay. (Bought in a carpet-store) 0,5m or 1m wide, and 10m long.
In any event you can produce a jig (?) that will let you process/cut the Merkur strips; 2-3 wooden lists, which lets you insert the strip to a fixed distance (5cm) and a guide to run the knife along, to make the cut.
The foam cuts very easy. Much easier than the cork.

Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline Minok  
#21 Posted : 18 July 2016 23:08:17(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
To some, I imagine the tedious and repetitive task of manually blasting k-track and then cleaning up between the ties and pukos as well as the added work on switches is therapeutic. Think of it like knitting. Its a LOT of repeated monotonous work, but that can be useful for some. For others that want to get the job done and begin to run/play such seemingly mindless activity is an obstacle. Hence the underlays.

For things like a helix, since the are not visible (enclosed in a mountain or underneath), or if visible not prototypical anyway, I'd think the focus is on noise reduction or super-elevation. So splitting it to facilitate easier bending or making curves out of a lot of smaller straight bits that don't have a smooth transition, where you free-hand trim the curve foam edges after the fact, would be acceptable to get the needed function.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline DaleSchultz  
#22 Posted : 15 October 2016 17:23:18(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
I did take some pics a while back but forgot to post the link to this thread...

http://cabinlayout.mixmox.com/1/Merkur-ballast

Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline applor  
#23 Posted : 24 March 2017 01:57:35(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,652
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I am looking to secure my branch station this weekend, which involves gluing the K track straight on baseboard (no merkur)

I have found that PVA wood glue in my hidden areas has reacted with the copper on the underside of the K track and caused discolouration (rust?)

Anyone else find this? What glue did you use for K track without merkur?
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline GlennM  
#24 Posted : 24 March 2017 13:02:55(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,875
Location: Somewhere, But Nowhere Near Manchester, England
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
Unless your radius is really huge (>>1m) you must cut it...
-or- if you can cut it right down the middle, splitting it in two 5cm wide sections, you can get away with bending a smaller radius.


I am talking about R4/5 parallel double track and also have R3 single track.

I was thinking the middle split may work for the R4/5.

Cutting it into pieces will be a pain though - the sheets are only 10cm wide. Unless I buy cork roll instead so I can cut them properly to shape.



Not sure why you don't just buy the special curved pieces for the parallel R4/R5 curves from Merkur, see here
Don't look back, your not heading that way.
Offline Minok  
#25 Posted : 24 March 2017 18:25:56(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
GlennM, I believe he just wants to use the plain simple blue un-balasted foam, as its in hidden areas, to dampen the noise.

UserPostedImage

It would work, but for bends I'd get a steel ruler and box cutter and split the 10cm wide section into 2.5cm wide (x4) strips so it can be laid and glued flat through curves.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline applor  
#26 Posted : 25 March 2017 00:40:52(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,652
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
You've replied to an older post and not my question about glue but since you've responded I will also reply regarding that question for others to see my solution.

Yes I am aware of the merkur R4/5 track piece and I have bought these for semi-visible areas (and you can see my weathering test runs in this post: https://www.marklin-user...ring-K-track#post542550)
Using that piece is overkill for hidden areas though, when I can save money and use plain underlay.
I found that using the 10cm wide plain strips by cutting it lengthwise and then cutting 2 pieces for each curve works well. There is zero waste and it ends up being quick to do.
Here is a picture showing the helix with this method:

R4 R5 roadbed.JPG
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#27 Posted : 25 March 2017 01:21:28(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
I find that there is no need to glue the track down. The feeder wires are enough to hold it in place.

There are added advantages to not gluing it down. In different seasons as temperature and humidity change, so do the physical dimensions of the benchwork. The track does not change size at the same rate, resulting in kinks or gaps depending on when you laid the track. By leaving the track in hidden areas to have some float you can avoid those issues.

Also, if ever you need to lift it for some reason, it is easier.

http://cabin-layout.blog...4/03/hidden-station.html
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline applor  
#28 Posted : 25 March 2017 23:37:15(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,652
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I do agree that wiring can hold the track in place well enough and then with ballast everything is locked in.

There are exceptions however, such as flex track which needs to be secured or it will try and straighten up again.

I glued my flex track last night with undiluted wood glue and used it thinly so that it dried quicker and hopefully this should avoid any rusting (so far so good)

I have also found a lot of track from the factory isn't actually flat, it arches up in the middle a bit - particularly with straight tracks and some turnouts.
It also happens that when handling and connecting track that it can be bent slightly and results in it not laying completely flat.

I am undecided if I should try and weight/glue them down or just ballast them as is.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline Minok  
#29 Posted : 26 March 2017 00:02:25(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Would a flexible contact glue not work well here?
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline applor  
#30 Posted : 27 March 2017 00:51:52(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,652
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
It most likely would, though after working on it this weekend I found that PVA wood glue is fine - providing you don't apply it too thickly so it doesn't take too long to dry.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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