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Offline Goofy  
#1 Posted : 25 February 2015 09:30:19(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
I wonder if there is deaf people who also use model railway as hobby?
How do they like to shop locomotives from Märklin,but there is only with the sounds in the nice models!?
Totally unecessary to shop sound locomotives from the Märklin factory...??
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline cookee_nz  
#2 Posted : 25 February 2015 09:48:51(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,948
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
I wonder if there is deaf people who also use model railway as hobby?
How do they like to shop locomotives from Märklin,but there is only with the sounds in the nice models!?
Totally unecessary to shop sound locomotives from the Märklin factory...??


Talk about out of left field.

This is a bit like asking if blind people should have art on their walls?. They can't see it, but it still brightens the place for others.

I would suggest there are probably quite a few deaf modellers - afterall modelling is much more a visual thing than audible.

And while the owners may not be able to hear the sounds, what about their friends, family and visitors?

But it gave me a good laugh LOL LOL (but probably for the wrong reasons)


Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline Token  
#3 Posted : 25 February 2015 09:54:14(UTC)
Token

Australia   
Joined: 25/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 300
Location: Sydney, NSW
The newly tooled loco's often come out with one model without sound - eg., recently released BR94.5, BR64 and BR41. Other releases such as insider it MHI are deliberately marketed as premium models, so you pay the price for bells and whistles (no pun intended).

My wife is profoundly deaf and appreciates the fact she doesn't have to listen to it!

I think that modellers are from all walks of life and seek different pleasures from our art so I can definitely see the appeal in creating a stunning visual display by hearing impaired people - indeed, as we get older we may face the same issue.

Regards,

Michael.
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Offline RayF  
#4 Posted : 25 February 2015 10:02:06(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I think the people at Marklin must be getting hard of hearing.

All of my recent sound locos come from the factory with the sound set way too high! I have had to go into the setup and lower the volume on all of them to avoid complaints from the neighbours....
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline tommycox  
#5 Posted : 25 February 2015 17:24:10(UTC)
tommycox

United States   
Joined: 25/02/2015(UTC)
Posts: 28
Location: North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Only those who are deaf can fully understand and appreciate the viewpoint of this original poster. Most other people who can hear are like the callous, hard hearted individual who insulted this man's handicap by saying "It gave me a good laugh." Do you also laugh at people who have lost a limb as they walk down the street? How will you feel when the time comes, and it will, that you have a hearing disability, and you "give people a good laugh" because you're disabled?

To the original poster: I'm like you. So what I do is buy older used models without sound that are cheaper.

Regards,
Tom
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Offline RayF  
#6 Posted : 25 February 2015 19:44:10(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
That's a bit harsh Tom. No-one here is making fun of deaf people.

Perhaps as you are new to the forum you don't fully appreciate Cookee's humourous comment, which is related to the kind of posts we get from Goofy, rather than to the hearing impaired.

If Goofy is in fact hard of hearing himself we have never been aware of this in the forum, and I just assumed it's a general question intended to create debate and discussion.

None of us is getting any younger, and our senses and other body functions are failing to a certain extent for all of us. I find I have trouble seeing smaller details now, and my back gives me hell if I bend over the layout for a while, but I enjoy the hobby as much as I am able. I hope to do so for many years too.

Let us all enjoy what we can as best we can and for as long as we can!
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline tommycox  
#7 Posted : 25 February 2015 20:42:33(UTC)
tommycox

United States   
Joined: 25/02/2015(UTC)
Posts: 28
Location: North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
That's a bit harsh Tom. No-one here is making fun of deaf people.

Perhaps as you are new to the forum you don't fully appreciate Cookee's humourous comment, which is related to the kind of posts we get from Goofy, rather than to the hearing impaired.

If Goofy is in fact hard of hearing himself we have never been aware of this in the forum, and I just assumed it's a general question intended to create debate and discussion.

None of us is getting any younger, and our senses and other body functions are failing to a certain extent for all of us. I find I have trouble seeing smaller details now, and my back gives me hell if I bend over the layout for a while, but I enjoy the hobby as much as I am able. I hope to do so for many years too.

Let us all enjoy what we can as best we can and for as long as we can!


I apologize, Cookee. I overreacted. My deafness is increasing in severity and it's got me bummed out.
Tom
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Offline Irish Rail  
#8 Posted : 25 February 2015 21:07:07(UTC)
Irish Rail

Ireland   
Joined: 04/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 123
Location: West Cork
I also suffer from deteriorating hearing (2 hearing aids) which is usually a pain in the butt. But there is an upside - no need to spend extra on locos with sound!

All together now - "Always look on the bright side of life" - and, whistle.
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Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 25 February 2015 22:24:34(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: Irish Rail Go to Quoted Post
no need to spend extra on locos with sound!
I think that is Goofy's point: many new models are available with sound only.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Wildrose-Wally  
#10 Posted : 26 February 2015 02:23:13(UTC)
Wildrose-Wally

Canada   
Joined: 22/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 563
Location: Sunny Southern Alberta
Originally Posted by: Irish Rail Go to Quoted Post
I also suffer from deteriorating hearing (2 hearing aids) which is usually a pain in the butt. But there is an upside - no need to spend extra on locos with sound!

All together now - "Always look on the bright side of life" - and, whistle.


Eh, hearing aids should not be used in the butt, try sticking them in your ears. LOL LOL LOL Flapper
UserPostedImage
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Offline cookee_nz  
#11 Posted : 26 February 2015 04:41:58(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,948
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: tommycox Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
That's a bit harsh Tom. No-one here is making fun of deaf people.

Perhaps as you are new to the forum you don't fully appreciate Cookee's humourous comment, which is related to the kind of posts we get from Goofy, rather than to the hearing impaired.

If Goofy is in fact hard of hearing himself we have never been aware of this in the forum, and I just assumed it's a general question intended to create debate and discussion.

None of us is getting any younger, and our senses and other body functions are failing to a certain extent for all of us. I find I have trouble seeing smaller details now, and my back gives me hell if I bend over the layout for a while, but I enjoy the hobby as much as I am able. I hope to do so for many years too.

Let us all enjoy what we can as best we can and for as long as we can!


I apologize, Cookee. I overreacted. My deafness is increasing in severity and it's got me bummed out.
Tom


Tom, your apology is accepted in the spirit it was intended. I'm glad I saw it because I was about to question myself the wisdom of joining a new forum and immediately posting harsh criticism on the same day.

Ray hit the nail on the head - it was not in any way a dig at the hearing-impaired (I suffer quite severe Tinnitus myself), nor was it directly or indirectly a dig at Goofy, his English is amusing at times, but we never mock him for it, it's just the way it comes out sometimes you can't help but laugh. But I will say this, at least he tried, and mostly we know exactly the point he is trying to make. Many of us (me for sure), would crash and burn at our attempts at another language so I envy and applaud all attempts at English, one of the hardest languages to master. Those of us born and raised with it don't always know how lucky we are.

And that's one of the beauties of this forum is that we all know these things about each other and (usually) we know not to take each other, or ourselves too seriously. But from time to time things are still mis-construed and when that happens we watch each others backs.

Although you've only just joined I suspect you've possibly been a 'lurker' (guest) for a while like many others and were sufficiently incensed by the mis-understanding to reveal yourself so there's a bonus right off, you are now officially 'outed'. Welcome aboard Tom, we hope to hear more from you. ThumpUp
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline tommycox  
#12 Posted : 26 February 2015 06:10:28(UTC)
tommycox

United States   
Joined: 25/02/2015(UTC)
Posts: 28
Location: North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Hi, Cookee, thanks for the note. I appreciate the welcome. Actually I think joined this group so long ago it was MMG or MUG or something like that. I just haven't posted in forever. I got into Märklin a mere 56 years ago, btw. We were living in Austria and my father had a Fulbright to teach English literature at the University of Graz. My parents gave me a 3000 and some other stuff for Christmas and I've loved Märklin ever since! This wonderful forum of helpful people, well they obviously all love it too. It's a lifelong thing, isn't it? Though I can run my trains with an iPhone now, I still am transported back to 1958 whenever I get out my 1958 BR89 and the original 16 VA blue transformer and run it around, breathing in the wafting perfume of the ozone and watching the sparks !

Once more, I apologize for the overreaction,
Tom
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Offline Goofy  
#13 Posted : 26 February 2015 07:00:13(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
The reason of why i did create this topic,is because waste of money for the customer who are deaf and no possible to hear the sounds and therefore forcement to buy locomotives with the speaker.
Digital locomotives arrives only with the sounds.
There is other way to use digital functions,but in this case we discuss about the sounds.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline steventrain  
#14 Posted : 26 February 2015 10:18:32(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,601
Location: United Kingdom
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
The reason of why i did create this topic,is because waste of money for the customer who are deaf and no possible to hear the sounds and therefore forcement to buy locomotives with the speaker.
Digital locomotives arrives only with the sounds.
There is other way to use digital functions,but in this case we discuss about the sounds.


Deaf with hearing aids can hear better with Sound locomotives. It can hear sound came from running with tracks.

No problem for deaf with hearing aids.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline Token  
#15 Posted : 26 February 2015 11:19:00(UTC)
Token

Australia   
Joined: 25/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 300
Location: Sydney, NSW
Goofy, I understand what you are trying to say and thank you for the thought.

As I mentioned earlier, my wife is profoundly deaf. That is to say she is 95% deaf. Like a lot of disabilities, there are varying degrees of impairment which means that through the use of hearing aids, she is able to live a relatively normal life, work a full time job and raise our daughter (with some help from me).

My point is best illustrated with the tv we recently purchased, along with a home theatre sound system.

In this digital age, it is a lot easier to get subtitled movies (though I am constantly amazed at the numbers of movies sold through iTunes do not have subtitles when their DVDS counterparts do!), though her impairment prevents her from enjoying the quality of sound through the home theatre system.

In addition to my shortsightedness, I do not have binocular vision. That means that the 3D TV function that comes with any decent TV these days is completely useless to me! My wife loves it (along with 'My Kitchen Rules' on TVS - Aaargh!).

I (we) paid a lot for this TVS that has a major function I cannot use but it does not take away from the enjoyment I have with the TV as a whole.

Similarly, the sound functionality is not the be all and end all of a model. Indeed, I know quite a number of our colleagues who prefer to run them without sounds. I just think that, like the TV's 3D function, it is where the market is.

Regards,

Michael.
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Offline supermoee  
#16 Posted : 26 February 2015 11:46:38(UTC)
supermoee

Switzerland   
Joined: 31/05/2007(UTC)
Posts: 534
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
The reason of why i did create this topic,is because waste of money for the customer who are deaf and no possible to hear the sounds and therefore forcement to buy locomotives with the speaker.
Digital locomotives arrives only with the sounds.
There is other way to use digital functions,but in this case we discuss about the sounds.


Hello Goofy,

about how much people are we speaking about? First they have to be completely deaf, second they have to practicize model railroad, third the have to buy only Märklin.

I quess you can count this people quite easily on your hands.

So in your opinion Märklin should waste a lot of money to build up a logistic and production process to offer loks without sounds to those few people? I think it would be cheaper for Märklin if they would donate them the locos.

The past showed that on every modell offered by Märklin in both versions, the version without sound remained in the shelfs of the shops for so long time and landed at the end in a bargain-sale.

So it is a fact, that most of the Märklinists are preferring the sound version and since we are living in a democracy, the minorities have to accept this. It is to expensive for a company to concentrate on minorities.

And as last fact, the deafs together with all other people in the world are not forced to buy something if it is not corresponding to their needs. We are living in a free economy and can choose between different offers. So if one product is not satisfying you, just leave it in the shelf. There are a lot of other product on the market. As we say in german: other parents have nice daughters too.

rgds

Stephan
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Offline RayF  
#17 Posted : 26 February 2015 12:01:38(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I am one of those who actually prefers to run the locos without sound. Maybe I'm in a minority, but if possible I very often choose the non-sound version of a loco and save myself a lot of money.

For me the joy of a model locomotive resides in the look of it and its movement on the rails. Sure, it's nice occasionally to hear the "chuff-chuff", but I can't bear to have it on more than a few minutes before I get tired of it.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline rorosha  
#18 Posted : 26 February 2015 12:29:16(UTC)
rorosha


Joined: 06/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 57
Location: MECHANICSBURG PA USA
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I am one of those who actually prefers to run the locos without sound. Maybe I'm in a minority, but if possible I very often choose the non-sound version of a loco and save myself a lot of money.

For me the joy of a model locomotive resides in the look of it and its movement on the rails. Sure, it's nice occasionally to hear the "chuff-chuff", but I can't bear to have it on more than a few minutes before I get tired of it.


I too prefer locos without sound. The sound I prefer, and it is a fond memory of my youth, is the sound of a Märklin loco running on M track which is securely attached to a large plywood resonator (build platform).

I find that many of the sounds included with the locomotives to be totally annoying.

By the way, I too am on the way to losing my hearing, 90% loss in the right ear, and 70% loss in the left ear. All because of too much time spent in high noise environments. I now prefer quiet places, with a minimum of unnecessary sounds. I consider train sounds to be unnecessary.

Silence is golden any more.
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#19 Posted : 26 February 2015 13:34:34(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
The reason of why i did create this topic,is because waste of money for the customer who are deaf and no possible to hear the sounds and therefore forcement to buy locomotives with the speaker.
Digital locomotives arrives only with the sounds.
There is other way to use digital functions,but in this case we discuss about the sounds.


Not entirely true, the 39551 G5/5 and 39553 Br57.5 are versions of the 39550 and 39552 respectively, but without any sound. In many cases the cost of providing sound in a loco is a miniscule part of the cost - sure if YOU do and buy a sound decoder it will cost you soemthing like Euro 50 extra, but for a manufacturer buying thousands the cost difference between a sound decoder and a non-sound decoder is really minimal.

I wonder how many S2/6 locos will be shelf queens and the sound never ever used? But in that case I beleive it is a one off run where the G5/5 and Br57.5 look like they will be in the catalogue for 3-4 years at a guess.

Offline Purellum  
#20 Posted : 26 February 2015 17:26:55(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

I wonder if Swedish people buy Märklin locos at all.

Some Swedish people seems to hate everything related to Märklin.

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline morsing  
#21 Posted : 26 February 2015 19:00:07(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 586
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Only earlier this week I was watching this half-hour TV programme on trains and model trains, and the guy in the model traian club near the end (at 23:40) is acually blind:

http://www.tvmidtvest.dk/nettv/?id=41631
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
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Offline tommycox  
#22 Posted : 26 February 2015 23:25:25(UTC)
tommycox

United States   
Joined: 25/02/2015(UTC)
Posts: 28
Location: North Carolina, Chapel Hill
I thank Goofy for starting this thread. I agree. It would be nice to have a choice. Choose a non-sound lok and pay less money. Use the savings to buy more Märklin. BTW: I'm only 64 but am pretty deaf. I wear 2 hearing aids. High frequencies are gone. All the fancy sound effects are useless to me. Maybe a bell and whistle to remind my of my childhood in Europe. But only on ONE lok! Not needed on the others. I used to think I went deaf from going to so many Rolling Stone concerts, but I know it's hereditary; both grandfathers and my dad were stone deaf in their old age. My dad lived to be 97, so I have to figure out a way to cope with deafness. Maybe a cochlear implant.
At any rate, the Märklin sensory experience to me is a. Visual (watching them go round.) b. Tactile (picking up a masterpice like the real wood sided Swedish 5670 and just holding it, looking at it, and smiling.

Best regards to all,
Tom
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Offline H0  
#23 Posted : 27 February 2015 08:28:59(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
New moulds often come with and without sound. In the case of the bay G 5/5 the versions without sound are EUR 80 cheaper (RRP). Livery variations usually come with sound only.

It seems that locos with sound are more profitable for Märklin. Same for Trix H0 where many customers would prefer analogue locos, but most new models come with decoder and sound.

Märklin are trying to please the majority of customers. Too many different variations lead to smaller production runs and make logistics more difficult. OTOH they will lose a few sales if they do not offer locos without sound.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Goofy  
#24 Posted : 27 February 2015 10:23:09(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

I wonder if Swedish people buy Märklin locos at all.

Some Swedish people seems to hate everything related to Märklin.

Per.

Cool



Can you verified what do you mean about that!??

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Goofy  
#25 Posted : 27 February 2015 10:27:46(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: supermoee Go to Quoted Post


So it is a fact, that most of the Märklinists are preferring the sound version and since we are living in a democracy, the minorities have to accept this. It is to expensive for a company to concentrate on minorities.

And as last fact, the deafs together with all other people in the world are not forced to buy something if it is not corresponding to their needs. We are living in a free economy and can choose between different offers. So if one product is not satisfying you, just leave it in the shelf. There are a lot of other product on the market.

rgds

Stephan


Democracy=public governance
But where is public governance for the deaf people?
Deaf people wants to buy Märklin locomotives too,but without the sounds and the speaker.
Brawa do offer this version for the customer.
Like Roco and Fleischmann too!

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline xxup  
#26 Posted : 27 February 2015 10:31:00(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
Just ignore it mate.. He is just poking you with a stick to get a reaction.. Cursing

If Swedish people did not like Marklin, then Marklin would not produce models like the awesome DM3, the little Ue class shunter and those great Ore cars.. There are no Australian or NZ locos available from Marklin - what does that say?

Adrian
UserPostedImage
Australia flag by abFlags.com
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Offline supermoee  
#27 Posted : 27 February 2015 11:44:08(UTC)
supermoee

Switzerland   
Joined: 31/05/2007(UTC)
Posts: 534
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post

Brawa do offer this version for the customer.
Like Roco and Fleischmann too!



Hello Goofy,

then buy Brawa, Roco and Fleischmann and leave Märklin products in the shelf.

If the business will go down drammatically, Märklin will react to come back to business and offer locos without sound.


I want to have a Ferrari with diesel engine. They do not offer it. Why? Should I complain to them? No, I buy a Porsche. They have a Diesel Engine.

rgds

Stephan
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Offline analogmike  
#28 Posted : 27 February 2015 12:54:30(UTC)
analogmike

United States   
Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 737
Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
i personally never cared for the sound quality produced by a speaker which is the size if a coin. i have heard loks with sounds even in larger scales and to me it just sounds "cheezy". i worked 30 years in a huge machine shop and also was i musician in a hard rock band, so yes my hearing is not what it used to be. i like to keep a pair of big stereo speakers under the layout which are hooked up to my pc. "poorman's loksounds" are just a click away. the plaster on the mountain cracks, the dog runs out, windows shake, little kids who come to see the layout get scared! and the money i saved goes to more trains! mike.
I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning .
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Offline Goofy  
#29 Posted : 27 February 2015 16:09:13(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: supermoee Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post

Brawa do offer this version for the customer.
Like Roco and Fleischmann too!



Hello Goofy,

then buy Brawa, Roco and Fleischmann and leave Märklin products in the shelf.

If the business will go down drammatically, Märklin will react to come back to business and offer locos without sound.


I want to have a Ferrari with diesel engine. They do not offer it. Why? Should I complain to them? No, I buy a Porsche. They have a Diesel Engine.

rgds

Stephan


I don´t understand why you are angry...but you do have BIGGER FREEDOM by choise analog or digital locomotives with Brawa,Roco...etc
Deaf people do HAVE BETTER choise,but deaf people do also want to buy Märklin locomotives without sounds and the speaker.
Yours attitude by equal trains with the expensive sports car are just bad explain.
I do write for the deaf people sake.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Jay
Offline tommycox  
#30 Posted : 27 February 2015 20:01:25(UTC)
tommycox

United States   
Joined: 25/02/2015(UTC)
Posts: 28
Location: North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Hello, Stephan. It's true, Ferrari doesn't offer the diesel option so you'd have to buy a Porsche. But what about the fact that you're a Ferrari guy through and through, and always have been? What about the fact that you absolutely LOVE Ferrari? A Porsche may have the diesel.... but it's no Ferrari. So, you find it frustrating and a bit sad that you might have to settle for a Porsche. This is how I feel about Märklin versus all the others. (Roco, etc). For better or worse, as the saying goes, I personally am a Märkin guy forever and ever. But I still might mutter or complain about them now and then. For instance I'd like to yell as loud as I could down the hall at Märklin's executive offices, "Don't you care about deaf people?"

Regards,
Tom
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Offline Yumgui  
#31 Posted : 27 February 2015 20:59:48(UTC)
Yumgui

United States   
Joined: 20/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,660
Location: Paris, France

Say wot ?

If your M track is rusted ... DON'T throw it out !
Working on: https://studiogang.com/projects/all
My heavy train station renovation: https://youtu.be/QQlyNiq416A
Inspired by: http://www.nakedmarklin.com/... Am not alone in this universe, phew.
Offline Purellum  
#32 Posted : 27 February 2015 22:15:55(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Quote:
If Swedish people did not like Marklin, then Marklin would not produce models like the awesome DM3,
the little Ue class shunter and those great Ore cars..


I'm not sure this is correct. I have no statistically basis to say so; but I think Märklin have sold more of those models outside Sweden than in Sweden.

Just as I think that the Bigboys and F7s is sold in higher numbers outside USA than in USA.

IMHO Goofy just uses every tiny excuse he can find to bash Märklin; the "locos with sound" problem has now been discussed several times for just as many strange reasons.

He even managed to have problems with the sound in a loco he couldn't show a picture of, and of which he didn't knew the correct Märklin-number related to the loco type.

Per.

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Offline cookee_nz  
#33 Posted : 27 February 2015 23:16:08(UTC)
cookee_nz

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Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
The reason of why i did create this topic,is because waste of money for the customer who are deaf and no possible to hear the sounds and therefore forcement to buy locomotives with the speaker.
Digital locomotives arrives only with the sounds.
There is other way to use digital functions,but in this case we discuss about the sounds.


Not entirely true, the 39551 G5/5 and 39553 Br57.5 are versions of the 39550 and 39552 respectively, but without any sound. In many cases the cost of providing sound in a loco is a miniscule part of the cost - sure if YOU do and buy a sound decoder it will cost you soemthing like Euro 50 extra, but for a manufacturer buying thousands the cost difference between a sound decoder and a non-sound decoder is really minimal.

I wonder how many S2/6 locos will be shelf queens and the sound never ever used? But in that case I beleive it is a one off run where the G5/5 and Br57.5 look like they will be in the catalogue for 3-4 years at a guess.



Exactly what I was about to comment.

We've had much the same debate re Digital vs Analoge, we know it's now significantly cheaper to produce Decoders than mechanical reversing units, and it makes sense for Märklin to switch to those for all new production. Nothing to break (except frying them), no adjustments, no jolt when reversing, simplified wiring and production etc etc.

I suspect we have the same situation with the sound function. It is very likely a miniscule extra production cost to produce decoders with vs without sound.

If Märklin were to withhold the sound 'option', the difference would be a few 00¢ / (öre?). They could leave out the speaker (very cheap basic component), and a couple of wires, that's it!! I do not believe that adding sound has significantly increased the base cost of the loco's.

And you can be sure that if they did leave speakers out, the decoder would still have the capability, and we would next be seeing a heap of topics on how to add it.

Remember Delta?, and how many articles there have been on how to hack the PCB to get all the additional addresses that were already in there anyway?

If I can take this to an absurd extreme, and hopefully without offending anyone, what about those who are colour-blind?, should Märklin stop producing loco's in such a wide variety of schemes. especially advertising loco's, just because small percentage of their customers can't see certain colours?

I'm not getting at you Goofy but I think you need to consider the bigger-picture here. If Märklin produced the same Loco's without sound, it may actually be more expensive. Different production run, different model number, different packaging, more stock for dealers to hold, warehouse inventory etc etc etc.

I am sure you have a number of items capable of doing much more than you will ever use. Your PC for example, or your mobile phone (packed with apps and features that you cannot remove right out of the box), your washing machine, hey your trousers have pockets even though you might never put anything in them.

Sorry Goofy but I think you're on a hiding to nothing with this one. (it means basically a pointless argument).

But it's stirred up debate and given us something to talk about. Cool

Steve
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Offline xxup  
#34 Posted : 27 February 2015 23:41:49(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
Originally Posted by: tommycox Go to Quoted Post
Hello, Stephan. It's true, Ferrari doesn't offer the diesel option so you'd have to buy a Porsche. But what about the fact that you're a Ferrari guy through and through, and always have been? What about the fact that you absolutely LOVE Ferrari? A Porsche may have the diesel.... but it's no Ferrari. So, you find it frustrating and a bit sad that you might have to settle for a Porsche. This is how I feel about Märklin versus all the others. (Roco, etc). For better or worse, as the saying goes, I personally am a Märkin guy forever and ever. But I still might mutter or complain about them now and then. For instance I'd like to yell as loud as I could down the hall at Märklin's executive offices, "Don't you care about deaf people?"

Regards,
Tom


Audi is way better than either and comes in a diesel.. LOL

BTW they have won the Le Mans so much that they probably going to rename the race Le Audi..
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Offline xxup  
#35 Posted : 28 February 2015 00:04:04(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
I look at the Brawa catalogue and they offer all sorts of options for the same loco.. I personally think that Goofy makes a good point as there is a significant price difference even on a basic model like a Br185.2.

For example (from the Brawa 2015 New Items):
43922 Br 185.2 Analogue and no sound 194.90 Euro
43925 Br 185.2 Digital with no sound 264.90 Euro (can be retrofitted with sound)
43927 Br 185.2 Digital with sound 324.90

Let's look at a more expensive model like a VT137 railcar
44200 Analogue and no sound 299.90 Euro
44201 Digital and no sound 332.90 Euro
44203 Digital with sound 419.90 Euro

I am assuming that Brawa is a smaller company than Marklin.. If Brawa can provide options for their customers, why not Marklin?
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Offline H0  
#36 Posted : 28 February 2015 08:37:04(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
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Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
I am assuming that Brawa is a smaller company than Marklin.. If Brawa can provide options for their customers, why not Marklin?
Because they are a big company.

Märklin goes the "one size fits all" way and they can live with the fact that only 95 % of the potential customers (wild guess) will buy the loco with Märklin standard sound.

The remaining few percent who would have bought the Märklin model if it would have come without sound or with ESU sound or with a motor with bell-shaped armature can only be gained with extra effort.
These niches are the target groups for Brawa, Roco and Piko.

Situation obviously is different depending on the model: bay G 5/5 comes from Märklin only (take it or leave it) while other models (TRAXX, BR 101, various models from the EuroSprinter family, Re 460) come from different makers.
Regards
Tom
---
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Offline RayF  
#37 Posted : 28 February 2015 09:33:48(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
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Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I can say that locos without sound are deinitely always significantly cheaper than digital locos with no sound. I know this because it's always the first thing that I look at when a new loco is produced.

I'm grateful that Marklin produces some locos in both versions, and in these cases I usually buy the one without sound and save some money.

I don't agree that the cost of the decoders must be similar. What about the cost of developing the sound files and loading them into the decoders. This is not the same as the standard digital decoder which is just plugged in and runs with a couple of minor adjustments.

However, this is not much to do with deaf people, and I agree with others who have said this is a pointless thread. The arguments for and against sound locos have a lot more to them than just whether they will be bought by the deaf.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline jasondixon  
#38 Posted : 28 February 2015 10:52:52(UTC)
jasondixon

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/01/2011(UTC)
Posts: 33
Location: Hampshire, UK
As someone who has a hearing 'disability', this did make me smile. No offence taken at all!

For what it's worth - I think there's one overriding thing to bear in mind - the VAST majority of people classed as being deaf (or having hearing issues) are not completely deaf - they have impaired or 'different' hearing.

Tell you what though, I do agree with the point about the loco's coming out with rock-concert levels of volume. If the loco's are 1:87 scale, surely the default sound dB level should be 1:87 too?

All replies via email please - I never hear the phone ring ;)
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Offline Purellum  
#39 Posted : 28 February 2015 12:40:19(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
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Cool

Quote:
I can say that locos without sound are deinitely always significantly cheaper than digital locos with no sound.


Are you sure this is what you mean, Ray?

"Without sound cheaper than ( digital with ) no sound" ??

Per.

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Offline cookee_nz  
#40 Posted : 28 February 2015 20:59:19(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,948
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I can say that locos without sound are deinitely always significantly cheaper than digital locos with no sound. I know this because it's always the first thing that I look at when a new loco is produced.

I'm grateful that Marklin produces some locos in both versions, and in these cases I usually buy the one without sound and save some money.

I don't agree that the cost of the decoders must be similar. What about the cost of developing the sound files and loading them into the decoders. This is not the same as the standard digital decoder which is just plugged in and runs with a couple of minor adjustments.

However, this is not much to do with deaf people, and I agree with others who have said this is a pointless thread. The arguments for and against sound locos have a lot more to them than just whether they will be bought by the deaf.


Hi Ray,

I feel I may have taken Goofy's original comment a little too quickly. What he implied (or what I interpreted) was that ALL loco's (excluding the cheap entry level ones of course) now had sound - quote... "but there is only with the sounds in the nice models!?"

I should have asked what was meant by 'nice' models. Does Goofy mean models he personally finds nice, or does he refer to what we'd all generally accept as the more advanced items in the range?

And I feel I was too broad in my own statement about Digital Decoders/Sound generally. I think what I perhaps should have intended to say was that there was now a series of relatively standard decoders which do include sound capability, and the difference in producing that style vs a functionally equivalent decoder without sound must be miniscule, and my basis for that is that the sound capability is within the main IC itself.

I did not intend to refer to a special separate sound board with specific features in terms of number of sounds (by function), storage capacity, quality of the audio and so on.

For those models I would accept a higher price.

I think it would be helpful for someone with an interest in this thread (and time to consult current prices) to compile a list of any Märklin items where the identical Loco is offered with and without sound, and compare the price difference. If there are none to be found then this would support Goofy's original comment that you'll get a single model either with or without sound, but not the same item where sound is optional.

But I would still be inclined to think that from Märklin point of view, if they are tooling up for a 'nice' item, then the additional cost of offering that same model without sound would be more expensive for them in the long term than just making a single item with sound, like it or not, simply for logistical reasons as per my previous posting.

Apologies if I rushed in with comments based on assumption rather than evidence.

Goofy, can you perhaps give us some specific examples of the items you were referring to?

Cheers

Cookee
Cookee
Wellington
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Offline RayF  
#41 Posted : 28 February 2015 21:09:17(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Hi cookee,

In recent years I can think if a few notable models that have been offered by Marklin in sound and non-sound versions. Br01, br23, br64, br218 come to mind. Sometimes the non-sound version is slightly different, or has a different Road number. In these models the difference in price has been at least 50 euro, and usually more.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline H0  
#42 Posted : 28 February 2015 21:19:56(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
The 60942 decoder without sound and without speaker has an RRP of €39.99.
The 60945 decoder with sound and with two speakers has an RRP of €99.99. That's a difference of €60.

With the new bay G 5/5 we have a difference of €80 between the quiet version and the noise version.

We can only speculate about the difference in production costs for the decoders (far less than €60) and the difference in the profit margin.

If you want the blue 151 in H0 scale you have to buy it with sound.
If you want the new G 2000 BB you have to buy it with sound.
If you want Hectorrail class 242 you have to buy it with sound.

The first TRAXX models came without sound and RRP was around €80 then. Now they come with sound and RRP is €200. Impressive price tag for a loco with entry-level details.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline H0  
#43 Posted : 28 February 2015 21:51:59(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
I flipped through the pages of the 2015 new items brochure. I counted the H0 models excluding my world.

I counted 10 locos without sound.
I counted 55 locos with sound.
Give or take a loco a two - but I hope I didn't miss anything. I included locos from train and starter sets.

The new mould bay G 5/5 is the only premium model available with and without sound. The other soundless locos are retro locos and entry-level locos.

Without Sound:
30501 Ae 6/6 (2x)
29173 wü T 3
29752 Henschel EA 500
26569 DHG 500
36652 Rhein Cargo 285
29841 DB 185.0
39551 Bay G 5/5
39553 DB 57.5
29351 CFL 4011
Total: 10

With Sound:
39415 DB E 41
26671 DB 111 LH
39374 DB 101 MHI
39030 DB 18.5
36243 DB 24
36429 DR 132
36645 DB 245
36844 ÖBB 2016
36622 NS E 186
36623 DB 146.0
29741 DB 012 & 290 (2x)
37144 Pr. T 3
37015 Bay S 2/6
37982 Bay B VI
39550 Bay G 5/5
37117 DRG 18.1
39552 DB 57.5
37801 DB V 200.0
37578 MM E 03
37162 DB 094
37775 DR SVT
37220 DR 254
39649 DR 64
37007 DB 212
37439 DB 143
37718 DB LINT 41
26594 DB 151
37200 G 2000 BB Railion
37468 Lokomotion TRAXX
37438 SRI 151
39844 GYSEV 470
39845 MRCE 182
29484 SBB Ae 6/6
39566 SBB Ce 6/8 II
36332 SBB Ee 3/3 (2x)
37325 SBB Re 6/6
37359 SBB Re 4/4 II
37202 G 2000 BB SBB
37526 SBB De 6/6
37223 ÖBB 1020
37796 SNCF TGV
26596 NS 1700
37126 NS 1200
37207 G 2000 BB ATC
37246 SNCB 25
37206 G 2000 BB SNCB
39673 CFL 1600
39674 MY
39842 Hectorrail 242
37942 T44
39861 BR 189
39862 BR 189
37996 Big Boy
Total: 55

If you don't want or need sound, either save big or bite the bullet.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline RayF  
#44 Posted : 28 February 2015 22:49:37(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Thanks Tom.

I think that's the whole point. Many are asking for more models to be produced with the choice of with or without sound. I agree with that sentiment.

I'm also disappointed that so many of the entry level locos are now so expensive because they come with sound.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline H0  
#45 Posted : 01 March 2015 23:19:05(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Situation is worse with Trix H0.
I found 1 analogue loco in the 2015 new items brochure - and that one is for Trix Express.
2 locos are digital without sound - one is in a starter set.
37 locos are digital with sound.

The analogue BR 189 from the 2014 new items had an RRP of €239.95. The BR 189 from 2015, digital with sound, has an RRP of €349.95.

Three-rail locos need a decoder for analogue AC operation (a small minority running DC three-rail could do without a decoder). Analogue two-rail DC does not require a decoder. And many two-railers who run digital layouts prefer free choice of decoder.
Several folks complain about those "compulsory" sound decoders that come massively with Trix models.
Deaf or not, many people are not happy with the sound decoders they have to buy if they really want a specific model.

BTW: the new bay G 5/5 and DB 57.5 are only offered with sound in the Trix range - Märklin fans can choose a quiet alternative.


Update: The only analogue H0 model was already announced in the 2014 new items brochure and re-appeared in the 2015 new items brochure. So there are no analogue H0 locos amongst the "true" 2015 new items.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Goofy  
#46 Posted : 02 March 2015 09:28:08(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post


IMHO Goofy just uses every tiny excuse he can find to bash Märklin; the "locos with sound" problem has now been discussed several times for just as many strange reasons.

He even managed to have problems with the sound in a loco he couldn't show a picture of, and of which he didn't knew the correct Märklin-number related to the loco type.

Per.




I like others do have sometimes problems with the sounds from Märklin digital locomotives.
There was no problems with the sounds in the BR212.
It was driving that was problem.
It did hacked.
I don´t understand why you are angry,but in this topic i did start by discuss if deaf people do have problems by shopping Märklin locomotives.
Same about with the Trix models.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Goofy  
#47 Posted : 02 March 2015 09:31:20(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post


I feel I may have taken Goofy's original comment a little too quickly. What he implied (or what I interpreted) was that ALL loco's (excluding the cheap entry level ones of course) now had sound - quote... "but there is only with the sounds in the nice models!?"

I should have asked what was meant by 'nice' models. Does Goofy mean models he personally finds nice, or does he refer to what we'd all generally accept as the more advanced items in the range?

And I feel I was too broad in my own statement about Digital Decoders/Sound generally. I think what I perhaps should have intended to say was that there was now a series of relatively standard decoders which do include sound capability, and the difference in producing that style vs a functionally equivalent decoder without sound must be miniscule, and my basis for that is that the sound capability is within the main IC itself.

I did not intend to refer to a special separate sound board with specific features in terms of number of sounds (by function), storage capacity, quality of the audio and so on.

For those models I would accept a higher price.

I think it would be helpful for someone with an interest in this thread (and time to consult current prices) to compile a list of any Märklin items where the identical Loco is offered with and without sound, and compare the price difference. If there are none to be found then this would support Goofy's original comment that you'll get a single model either with or without sound, but not the same item where sound is optional.

But I would still be inclined to think that from Märklin point of view, if they are tooling up for a 'nice' item, then the additional cost of offering that same model without sound would be more expensive for them in the long term than just making a single item with sound, like it or not, simply for logistical reasons as per my previous posting.

Apologies if I rushed in with comments based on assumption rather than evidence.

Goofy, can you perhaps give us some specific examples of the items you were referring to?

Cheers

Cookee


Nice models=good quality and designs
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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