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Offline kerz  
#1 Posted : 15 February 2015 06:13:22(UTC)
kerz


Joined: 13/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 10
Location: ,
Long time lurker. Have used Marklin locs/stock before, but wanting to switch over to something that has more American, and really Canadian*, rolling stock. I've been investigating how DCC works exactly, and it seems like a giant mess. That said, it appears the CS2 will actually handle DCC now, so I'm curious how well it works, what sort of gotchas are involved, and any sort of other info folks know about it. I've honestly never bought anything other than Marklin before, so tips on general DCC would also be welcome. Finally, also curious what sort of success folks have had mixing Trix with other two week manufacturers.

* I'm really interested in Rapido trains stuff, especially these powered rail cars (http://www.rapidotrains.com/rdcus.html) and in general their various locs.
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 15 February 2015 08:33:31(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,265
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: kerz Go to Quoted Post
That said, it appears the CS2 will actually handle DCC now, so I'm curious how well it works
It works OK. You only get 16 functions per loco where other controllers support 29 functions per loco. It seems that American sound locos often come with 29 functions ex works.
In general I don't like the user interface of the CS2: complicated, counter-intuitive, slow.
The CS2 does not support RailCom or RailCom+.

Originally Posted by: kerz Go to Quoted Post
I've honestly never bought anything other than Marklin before, so tips on general DCC would also be welcome.
I don't have severe issues with DCC decoders from different manufacturers.
I prefer DCC. I switched off mfx and try to avoid MM when buying locos.

Originally Posted by: kerz Go to Quoted Post
Finally, also curious what sort of success folks have had mixing Trix with other two week manufacturers.
The biggest problem with European rolling stock are Märklin couplers colliding with the buffers on non-MäTrix rolling stock. Not an issue with American rolling stock that does not have buffers.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline RUBEN SPAIN  
#3 Posted : 17 February 2015 20:11:00(UTC)
RUBEN SPAIN

Spain   
Joined: 19/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 112
Location: Madrid Spain
Hello.

I think if you do not need mfx and only whants DCC a good option is the ESU ECOS. The ESU ECOS can bring you more than 16 functions and I think It could be a little Bit cheaper. Why? Because when you Buy a ESU ECOS it comes with the power supply (and it has variable voltage between 15 and 21 volts) and if you buy a CS2 in box you have to buy a power supply separately and it could cost you between 65 and 90 euros more (60061 3 A power supply and 60101 5A power supply) And also the CS2 power supply has a fixed 19 volts voltage.


But if you use several Marklin locomotives with mfx decoders the best option is a CS2.
Offline witzlerh  
#4 Posted : 17 February 2015 23:48:19(UTC)
witzlerh

Canada   
Joined: 25/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 417
Location: Sherwood Park, AB, Canada
I run both fx, mfx, mfx+ and DCC with my CS2. ( I have both 2 and 3 rail C track).
Yes currently there is a limit of 16 functions but most DCC decoders can be programed to get your most important functions up front.
If there is demand, I am sure that there can be a way to alter the CS2 programming to access more functions.

I have a Rapido VIA Canadian and it works well on the CS2. It was easy to consist the loks and I have an A-B-A lash up, all powered although I had to wait to get the powered B chassis. With all metal wheels and 14 cars, I will need the 3 loks on my hills.

DCC programming is more clunky that the slick programming that we have for fx and mfx. However it does work.
I would recommend that when you do serious programming (like a new decoder), that you set the CS2 to only be DCC or MM in the control setting until you get familiar with it.
I have had multi decoders go funny when trying to set the preferred "language". i.e. Set my CS2 to MM only when programming a new multi-decoder to m or m4 or mfx. DCC tends to take precedence because unlike mfx, it is not bidirectional communication.

I have been maintaining my NA clubs loks so I am exposed to a lot of different dcc decoders. Our club loves the ESU decoders but some diehards prefer the Digitrax because they are used to it. ESU has so many options that it is hard to keep track.

Getting NA rolling stock to run on C track or Trix C track is another thing. Rapido products are very close to scale...that means that curves have to be large. I had to spend about an hour per car to nip and tuck away piping that interfered with the swivel range of the truck. As it is, I could only have a minimum radius of 20.25 " (R3). The loks were short enough to not need much work.
Second is this. The C track is designed for larger flanges so that means that the NA cars will wiggle on the switches. You can build up the flange rests if the only wheels going on the rail is only short flanges that NA loves.

Thanks for brining this topic up... I would like to hear other chime in about their CS2 and DCC experiences. I am stuck with my CS2 and so far I am still happy that I made a good decision. This predicament also forces me to find solutions rather than complain and that is not a bad thing.
Harald
CS2 DB & Canadian Era 3-6
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Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 18 February 2015 08:03:22(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,265
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: witzlerh Go to Quoted Post
If there is demand, I am sure that there can be a way to alter the CS2 programming to access more functions.
I think the CS2 UI will never support more functions for DCC than for mfx because M* write that mfx has the highest priority ("The digital protocol with the most possibilities is the highest order digital protocol.").

Originally Posted by: witzlerh Go to Quoted Post
DCC tends to take precedence because unlike mfx, it is not bidirectional communication.
There is a bidirectional extension to DCC: RailCom and RailCom+
I presume the CS2 hardware is not prepared for RailCom.

Originally Posted by: witzlerh Go to Quoted Post
I would like to hear other chime in about their CS2 and DCC experiences. I am stuck with my CS2 and so far I am still happy that I made a good decision. This predicament also forces me to find solutions rather than complain and that is not a bad thing.
I presume the CV programming screen in the CS2 was designed by someone who doesn't like DCC and who didn't take the full CV specification into account. CV programming is much easier with an Intellibox or ECoS.
Potential buyers should take that into account. If DCC programming is very important, then maybe the CS2 is not the one controller for everything. There are other controllers with big screens. Or maybe get a simple DCC controller without a big screen for DCC programming if you buy the CS2 to run trains.

Originally Posted by: witzlerh Go to Quoted Post
DCC programming is more clunky that the slick programming that we have for fx and mfx.
DCC programming is much like fx programming, but DCC decoders usually offer more settings.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline NZMarklinist  
#6 Posted : 21 February 2015 08:30:17(UTC)
NZMarklinist

New Zealand   
Joined: 15/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,757
Location: Auckland NZ
IMHO, for what it is worth, If you are looking for a Controller for DCC, or more particularly are not concerned with MFX+ then go for the ECOS ThumpUp

I will probably succumb to the weird ways of the CS2, for my layout, as I am a Marklin MFX fan and I am intrigued by MFX+.
That said I have my trusty CS1-R to fall back on which is really an Ecos with Marklin logo's on it Wink
Glen
Auckland NZ

" Every Marklin layout needs a V200, a Railbus and a Banana car", not to mention a few Black and red Steamers, oh and the odd Elok !

CS1 Reloaded, Touch Cab, C Track Modules, K track layout all under construction. Currently Insider
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H0
Offline biedmatt  
#7 Posted : 21 February 2015 11:11:53(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
I'm with Glen. DCC at best will always be an afterthought for Marklin. MFX is their format and they will always give it the best features and options. If you want DCC, buy something else. At the moment the best of those appears to be the ECoS. ESU is leading the charge in DCC development with RailCom+ and all the features it offers, auto-registration without the frustration and occupany detection based on active loko feedback.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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H0MikeR
Offline Oliver nagel  
#8 Posted : 22 February 2015 14:45:50(UTC)
Oliver nagel

United States   
Joined: 30/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 121
Location: Allegany
I run all my loks on DCC using a CS2. I have installed lokpilot V4 decoders in all of them. After I convet them from analoge to digital I use a sprog V3 with JRMI to program and test the engines and all the data is stored in my laptop it is so easy to use. Why would I use anything else ?

Edited by user 22 February 2015 18:45:57(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline sjlauritsen  
#9 Posted : 22 February 2015 15:34:57(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
I use the Central Station 2 with DCC and two-rail. I love it. I am not mr. "need every single function", most of my locos does not even have above 5 functions. I know some newer models might have more than 16, but to be honest, the only real interesting sound on a loco for me is the engine sound. I do not care about being able to activate random sounds and station announcements. So 16 functions is more than enough for me.

When we do operating sessions, mostly the bells, horn and whistles are essential. Perhaps the station managers signal as well. But that is about it.

I decided to go with the Central Station 2, because I then have the option for a cheap mobile control (MS2) from the same manufacturer. With the ESU I could use a mobile control as well, but the one ESU makes costs too much for me, and the other options are sniffer (or converter) based, which I do not like.

I do think that the Central Station 2 and the ESU Command Station are the only real options today, if you want a central control with a display. If you do not care about the display, there are several other options to choose from. Especially if you go computer control. If you want a true "walk around" system, I would think there are better options than Märklin and ESU. You can use the MS2 as a walk around controller, but it is not near as complete as other walk-around systems such as NCE, Lenz and Digitrax.

Trix will work with any manufacturer. I have never had a problem with that, I have both Roco, Trix, PIKO and so on. Everything works fine together - as I would expect.

My blog has a lot of information on Märklin Digital and two-rail operations. You might find something useful: http://www.bahnfan.net/category/Digital-Control
This article is about my decision to go with Märklin Digital: http://www.bahnfan.net/p...tal-System-For-My-Trains
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
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Offline kerz  
#10 Posted : 24 February 2015 06:15:58(UTC)
kerz


Joined: 13/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 10
Location: ,
Awesome, thanks Søren and others! Will take another look at the ESU. The appeal of the Marklin stuff is it seems to be more consumer friendly so far.
Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 24 February 2015 07:41:59(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,265
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kerz Go to Quoted Post
The appeal of the Marklin stuff is it seems to be more consumer friendly so far.
LOL
Give it a try. IMHO CV programming with DCC using a CS2 is not user-friendly.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline sjlauritsen  
#12 Posted : 24 February 2015 07:53:42(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Give it a try. IMHO CV programming with DCC using a CS2 is not user-friendly.

We know you think so, you already said so. Wink Luckily "user friendly" is a matter of personal opinion and preference, I for one, thinks that CV programming using the CS2 is easy as pie. Smile
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
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Offline biedmatt  
#13 Posted : 24 February 2015 14:09:53(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: sjlauritsen Go to Quoted Post
I decided to go with the Central Station 2, because I then have the option for a cheap mobile control (MS2) from the same manufacturer. With the ESU I could use a mobile control as well, but the one ESU makes costs too much for me, and the other options are sniffer (or converter) based, which I do not like.


Are you comparing the corded MS2 to ESU's wireless ECoS Control Radio P# 50111? I hope not. There is no comparison with a device that ties me to within a few feet of a single point and the freedom of wireless.

Anyway, the CS2 and ECoS will connect with any Android or iThingie via a wireless connection. There are apps for that. Most everyone has a smart phone making the MS2 and the ECoS Control Radio irrelevant as a remote accessory for the CS2 and ECoS. ESU has even discontinued the Control Radio due to obsolescence. Why buy something when you already have exactly what you need in your pocket?
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline sjlauritsen  
#14 Posted : 24 February 2015 14:36:50(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Are you comparing the corded MS2 to ESU's wireless ECoS Control Radio P# 50111? I hope not.

Sorry to disappoint you, but yes I am comparing the two. I guess you missed the spot where I wrote "cheap". The ESU mobile control (the new one, the old one is not available anymore) costs around 260 euro. That is a lot of money for a handheld. I may have other needs than you. We are usually five to six people operating on a system. With the Mobile Station 2 I can have sockets around the layout and plug it in where needed. The MS2 is usually available for around 55 euro. Way cheaper than the ESU controller.

Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Anyway, the CS2 and ECoS will connect with any Android or iThingie via a wireless connection. There are apps for that. Most everyone has a smart phone making the MS2 and the ECoS Control Radio irrelevant as a remote accessory for the CS2 and ECoS. ESU has even discontinued the Control Radio due to obsolescence. Why buy something when you already have exactly what you need in your pocket?

The MS2 and other controllers are not irellevant if you do not have an Iphone or Android. I have a Windows device, which does not have the option for an app at the moment. It is also my experience that the mobile apps can suddenly disconnect, which leaves me without control of the train. That is not an option for me.

Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
Offline biedmatt  
#15 Posted : 24 February 2015 20:40:35(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: sjlauritsen Go to Quoted Post

Sorry to disappoint you, but yes I am comparing the two. I guess you missed the spot where I wrote "cheap".

The MS2 and other controllers are not irellevant if you do not have an Iphone or Android. I have a Windows device, which does not have the option for an app at the moment. It is also my experience that the mobile apps can suddenly disconnect, which leaves me without control of the train. That is not an option for me.



Not disappointed, just feel it is incredibly unfair to compare price and not include the technical differences between the two. Your answer left the impression they were technically the same and only the cost was different. You excluded all pertinant information necessary to make an informed decision.

As to the second point, I guess that all depends on what phone you use.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline RayF  
#16 Posted : 24 February 2015 21:07:41(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,839
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I've never thought that my mobile phone is a good idea as a controller for my trains. What happens if the phone rings, or I get a text message? Much better in my book to have a device which is dedicated to the purpose!

I know that the current trend is to do everything on one's phone, but really, I don't think it's so practical.

I like my MS2, it does a great job of controlling my trains, and it has zero chance of starting to buzz, ring, ding, notify, or anything else while I'm enjoying my trains!

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline biedmatt  
#17 Posted : 24 February 2015 21:17:05(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Um, Ray, you press "ignore".
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline sjlauritsen  
#18 Posted : 24 February 2015 21:33:40(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Hi Matt,

Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Not disappointed, just feel it is incredibly unfair to compare price and not include the technical differences between the two. Your answer left the impression they were technically the same and only the cost was different. You excluded all pertinant information necessary to make an informed decision.

I wrote that the ESU mobile controller costs to much for me - and it does. Smile I was looking for a digital system with a cheap mobile controller. When I made my decision I compared them with regards to the features and the cost. I think that is fair thing to do, since they are both mobile controllers and supposed to solve the same problems. My opinion is that the wireless deal with the ECoSControl Radio is not worth the additional cost - especially when I need more than one of them.

Yes, the ECoSControl Radio is a wireless controller, but I honestly do not see any differences that justifies paying between 150 - 200 euro more for it.

I think I can do more with the Mobile Station 2. With the Mobile Station 2 I also get a nifty little controller that I can use without the Central Station 2 for quick setups, testing purposes and the like. That also matters to me. In my research I did not find any information about being able to use the ECoSControl Radio, on its own, without the ECoS.

At the end of the day it is a matter of personal taste. Smile
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
Offline sjlauritsen  
#19 Posted : 24 February 2015 21:41:25(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Hi Ray,

Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I've never thought that my mobile phone is a good idea as a controller for my trains. What happens if the phone rings, or I get a text message? Much better in my book to have a device which is dedicated to the purpose!

Some systems can be set up to automatically ignore calls should the phone ring. You may also be able to disable the phone radio and only use wifi radio. There are a number of options depending on your phone system.

I think the phones are a great addition to the digital system but, in an operating session, I prefer a wired dedicated device.
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by sjlauritsen
Offline biedmatt  
#20 Posted : 24 February 2015 22:18:55(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Hello Søren,
Originally Posted by: sjlauritsen Go to Quoted Post
My opinion is that the wireless deal with the ECoSControl Radio is not worth the additional cost - especially when I need more than one of them.

Yes, the ECoSControl Radio is a wireless controller, but I honestly do not see any differences that justifies paying between 150 - 200 euro more for it.


We have differences of needs and/or opinions. I am not questioning that. I prefer a wireless device. I just wanted them to understand that there is a technical difference between the two besides the price. Your post left the impression that one just simply cost more than the other. You can not justify the difference in cost based on your needs. Perhaps their needs are different and they can justify the cost difference. If something doesn't fit your needs, then at times, it does not matter how cheap it is.

Originally Posted by: sjlauritsen Go to Quoted Post
At the end of the day it is a matter of personal taste. Smile


Completely agree. We usually buy what we want and/or need.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by biedmatt
Offline kerz  
#21 Posted : 11 March 2015 06:39:26(UTC)
kerz


Joined: 13/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 10
Location: ,
Just to close it out, I decided to get the ESU ECOS, as it seemed to be the best fit for the problem. It also seemed a lot cheaper all-in compared to the CS2, and functionally very comparable. Given I don't plan to go back to Marklin any time soon, it seemed the right tool for the job. Thanks so much for all the discussion, it was very helpful hearing opinions!
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