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Offline Mark5  
#1 Posted : 12 February 2015 00:04:32(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Hello Gents,

Earlier a discussion of Primex came up and I've been curious for quite some time about the roofs comparing the Marklin 4036 and the Primex 4191.

I'd like to make a consists of 5 or more passenger cars since the 4036 are all the same. While I love the brown colour and the checked roofs, I wouldn't mind adding some variation for a train with my 3035 that would run to or from Roma.
(Nice bit of info/images on the 3035 here: http://www.marklinfan.net/3035e.htm )

1) Is the Primex car prototypical and if not should I paint the edges brown like the 4036.

If you look in my photos, it appears that one of my 4036 exchanged a roof with a car that was once all silver and the owner had the edges painted brown. Not a bad colour match job which I only noticed later when seeing them side by side. I picked up the third 4036 with the duller roof from the Big E show for $50. (Sounds like the swap meet/train show in Scranton PA is much better for Marklinists) The first two I got from Andre Gombos (recommended by Mark aka kweekalot) for 40 and 45 euros. Kind of hefty sum for tin-plate cars, but I thought it was worth it to make the set, even with the wear on the roofs. Ebay prices with shipping would have been more.
Image of set in the old catalogue: http://www.marklinfan.net/3000/3035CVG.jpg

2) It seems the paint for the roofs of the two cars have kind of silver/metal/chrome mixed in as the colour has a rich patina as is quite different in tone from the top two cars. (Perhaps I am a bit particular about colour due my art background.)

3) Could it have been possible for a 4029 type car to be in a consists heading to or from Rome, as they have a common destination?
4) And what is the likelihood of a stray Wagonlits (weather of not my Primex 4191 matches the proto or not) to be run on that train?
5) Where there ever mixed freight and passenger trains run at that time (circa 1955) in Italy?

Photos below should help with my questions:
Mark5 attached the following image(s):
DSC_0127.jpg
DSC_0130.jpg
DSC_0133.jpg
train-to-roma.jpg
DSC_0129b.jpg
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#2 Posted : 12 February 2015 02:08:15(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,655
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
Hello Gents,
Earlier a discussion of Primex came up and I've been curious for quite some time about the roofs comparing the Marklin 4036 and the Primex 4191.

I'd like to make a consists of 5 or more passenger cars since the 4036 are all the same. While I love the brown colour and the checked roofs, I wouldn't mind adding some variation for a train with my 3035 that would run to or from Roma.
(Nice bit of info/images on the 3035 here: http://www.marklinfan.net/3035e.htm )

1) Is the Primex car prototypical and if not should I paint the edges brown like the 4036.....
3) Could it have been possible for a 4029 type car to be in a consists heading to or from Rome, as they have a common destination?
4) And what is the likelihood of a stray Wagonlits (weather of not my Primex 4191 matches the proto or not) to be run on that train?
5) Where there ever mixed freight and passenger trains run at that time (circa 1955) in Italy?
.....


Hi Mark,
I really like these out-of-the-ordinary tinplate offerings from Marklin.
This is my opinion.

1) The 4191 should be left as is. It is a car that is on offer rarely, and probably represents a CIWL car of the early 1920s with its teak match-board sides (before they were painted blue).
3) The real 4029 car was built in 1958, and the Marklin model is quite good for its time. These are plentiful, and it definitely ran through to Rome, so would be good in a train with the 4036s.
4) The 4191 as I say, probably represents a 1920s car. As you run it as a toy train set, you can run it with whatever you like.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline Mark5  
#3 Posted : 12 February 2015 02:43:06(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Thanks Kimball,

Yes, the CIWL name is on the sides and the lines would clearly be the wood slats.
Hmm, any chance a "museum piece" like that would run in the mid 50s? Smile

To run for fun, it ok for me as the roofs match, and the destination. Curiously the Primex piece is identical in form to the 4036.
But if I run it for a art film set in 1955 that I have been preparing for, I'd like to have it be as close to the "historical fiction" as possible.
That said, I am finding it more and more tempting to merge a few years together, say 55 to 59.
Especially as I want to the chronicle/include the development of the V200... but might work in a serial format of episodes.
One thing at a time though.

And... I just came back from a neighbours place a few minutes ago that kept the Senator set for me for a couple years...
With the 1955 livery. (Neighbour has changed over to DC, so his M-stuff is waiting there, and he doesn't want to bother with shipping and ebay.)
Acquired that with the extra cars... of course, the Senator had a shorter life in the prototype,
nonetheless, I'm looking forward to opening it on my B-day this weekend and giving it a run.

- Mark

DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#4 Posted : 12 February 2015 04:16:47(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,655
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
Thanks Kimball,
Yes, the CIWL name is on the sides and the lines would clearly be the wood slats.
Hmm, any chance a "museum piece" like that would run in the mid 50s? Smile
......- Mark


Hi Mark,

Perhaps you could re-phrase the question, for doing a 1920s film.
Any chance a "museum piece" like that would have run with 2 tone FS cars in the mid 20s?
At what date did FS start painting their cars two tone brown??

Anyway, as you say, the coloring and style are a "true" match for the 4036! :-)
If it was my train set, I would run it in the 50s, because who knows what you were likely to see in northern Italy post-war.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline mike c  
#5 Posted : 12 February 2015 05:15:48(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Most of the CIWL coaches were painted blue in the 1950s/1960s. Trains like the Holland-Italien Express and the D-Zug Lorelei ran from Holland or Germany to Italy through Switzerland. These trains often included FS coaches alongside DB, NS and CIWL/ISG coaches. Maerklin's 346/3J (4011) CIWL sleeper would be a good add-on, as would the CIWL diner 346/2J (4009). You also add one 346/1 DB coach with taillights.

Regarding the deformity on the roof, I was wondering whether that might have been caused by a short caused by interior lighting contacting the metal roof.

Regards

Mike C


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Offline Mark5  
#6 Posted : 12 February 2015 05:20:00(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Good question Kimball,
I do wonder what year the FS two-tone cars started to run....? Does anyone know?
And the confused creativity of the post-war period is part of what fascinates me,
so thanks for encouragement.

Perhaps I will have to do a thread with all my FS passenger cars and wagons and get some help with dates.
I've done too much guessing in the past; imagining what '55 Italy and Germany looked like.
I have some really nice Roco and Rivorossi cars. Now I will need a couple more locos to round it out.
FS had some beautiful electrics at the time.

Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post

Any chance a "museum piece" like that would have run with 2 tone FS cars in the mid 20s?
At what date did FS start painting their cars two tone brown??

Anyway, as you say, the coloring and style are a "true" match for the 4036! :-)
If it was my train set, I would run it in the 50s, because who knows what you were likely to see in northern Italy post-war.

DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
Offline Mark5  
#7 Posted : 12 February 2015 05:30:25(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Thanks for the suggestions Mike!
I'd really like to see some mixed trains to help understand the period and Italia's connectedness with the rest of Europe.
It almost appears that the solder was to either fill a hole he created for some reason or when he tried to attach interior lighting incorrectly, but your suggestion is probably more likely.

Cheers,
Mark

ps. How about the new snowfall. Big fluffy flakes falling just a while ago on this end of the hood.

Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
Most of the CIWL coaches were painted blue in the 1950s/1960s. Trains like the Holland-Italien Express and the D-Zug Lorelei ran from Holland or Germany to Italy through Switzerland. These trains often included FS coaches alongside DB, NS and CIWL/ISG coaches. Maerklin's 346/3J (4011) CIWL sleeper would be a good add-on, as would the CIWL diner 346/2J (4009). You also add one 346/1 DB coach with taillights.

Regarding the deformity on the roof, I was wondering whether that might have been caused by a short caused by interior lighting contacting the metal roof.

Regards

Mike C




DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
Offline mike c  
#8 Posted : 12 February 2015 06:22:07(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
UPDATED WITH LINKS

The Maerklin 4036 represents a mid-1950s (Type 1956-1959) coach of the FS. These were very common on Italian and European (SBB, DB, OBB) rails until the 1970s.

One of the things that I love about modelling Switzerland is that you get to model the international consists that could be found behind SBB locomotives on the Gotthard and Simplon routes.
I have a tin plate consist made up of DB and FS rolling stock with a SBB diner. The FS coaches come from the tin plate sets released during the past few years.

I have the Trix 23414 Riviera Express Set of 3 FS UIC-X coaches and added Maerklin DB coaches. I will likely add the new red SBB restaurant to this consist.
I also have the Trix 23477 TEE Roland set which ran through Switzerland to Milano.

In 1/87, I have FS coaches from Lima, ACME, Roco and other brands ranging from 1960s UIC-X to the latest Thello night train coaches that run from Venice to Paris via the Simplon.
There is an Italian forum that has wonderful photos and coach listings for prototypical trains. I will add the link here a little later. The text is in Italian but the photos and the coach lists are universal.

I check the Svizzero (Switzerland) and International Trains Topics often.

Swiss: http://www.forum-duegied...pic.php?f=21&t=44635
International: http://www.forum-duegied...f83d9e340b7b4127e42c1e01

Regards

Mike C

Edited by user 12 February 2015 22:56:45(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline seatrains  
#9 Posted : 12 February 2015 07:01:27(UTC)
seatrains

United States   
Joined: 22/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 669
Location: Shoreline, WA
As a conservative collector, I suggest not painting the roofs!BigGrin I have many tinplate coaches and the silver can vary slightly because of different paint lots or exposure to UV over the years. I will pay more for an original paint coach with a little character than a re-spray...Glare
We all know that there are times when loks, coaches or cars are in such bad condition they do require a re-paint and we have seen some outstanding examples on this website! My two cents...
Thom
European Train Enthusiast - Pacific Northwest Chapter
4th Division, Pacific Northwest Region, National Model Railroaders Association
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Offline RayF  
#10 Posted : 12 February 2015 10:14:02(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
On the question of repainting roofs, I have to say I'm not in the "collector's" camp. The normal viewing angle for a model railway makes the roof of any carriage the most visible part, and it makes the whole train look very tatty if there is rust, scratches, or other non-realistic blemishes.

I recently repainted the roof on an old Italian peak-roof van which was badly scratched. I used Humbrol 53 "Gun metal". The results were very acceptable, and gave the wagon a new lease of life.

As to the train composition, I like the look of that Primex coach with the Italian 4035. They are the same form and well matched in colour. If we ignore reality I think it makes a good looking train.

This Primex coach was actually intended, I believe, to go with the 2701 "Orient Express" set produced by Primex. Kimball has the full set.

https://www.marklin-user...-Express.aspx#post229468
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#11 Posted : 12 February 2015 14:40:27(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
Hello Gents,

Earlier a discussion of Primex came up and I've been curious for quite some time about the roofs comparing the Marklin 4036 and the Primex 4191.

I'd like to make a consists of 5 or more passenger cars since the 4036 are all the same. While I love the brown colour and the checked roofs, I wouldn't mind adding some variation for a train with my 3035 that would run to or from Roma.
(Nice bit of info/images on the 3035 here: http://www.marklinfan.net/3035e.htm )

1) Is the Primex car prototypical and if not should I paint the edges brown like the 4036.


AFAIK primex never did Italian stock. The only item I am aware of in the Primex range that is non-German stock is the 2701 orient express set which has a version of the Br38 with tub tender painted as a French loco.

So my answer would be that car is not prototypical for Italian stock.

Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post

If you look in my photos, it appears that one of my 4036 exchanged a roof with a car that was once all silver and the owner had the edges painted brown. Not a bad colour match job which I only noticed later when seeing them side by side. I picked up the third 4036 with the duller roof from the Big E show for $50. (Sounds like the swap meet/train show in Scranton PA is much better for Marklinists) The first two I got from Andre Gombos (recommended by Mark aka kweekalot) for 40 and 45 euros. Kind of hefty sum for tin-plate cars, but I thought it was worth it to make the set, even with the wear on the roofs. Ebay prices with shipping would have been more.
Image of set in the old catalogue: http://www.marklinfan.net/3000/3035CVG.jpg


The Italian loco and corresponding car sets do appear to be relatively rare and hence tend to command higher prices than might be expected when they do appear.

Your other questions are beyond my knowledge base sorry.
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Offline Mark5  
#12 Posted : 12 February 2015 21:45:24(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Some beautiful trains Mike,
I'd love to see those some day.

Here is a good example of the Maerklin 346/3J (4011) that you mentioned earlier:
http://gmtrain.info/Mark...assenger_Cars/AX-10.html
(While its very nice I'd rather spend 200 Euro on a set... )
Anyway the real reason I post that link is to look at the roof with he banding.
Which goes back to original question about the Primex car.
Has anyone seen a proto of a CIWL with the same kind of "check patterned" roof as the Primex CIWL or was that just a bit of Marklin's mix and match to make the "Old Timer Schlafwagen"? My guess its the latter.

Would love to see the link to the Italian forum you have in mind when you have a the chance.
- Mark

Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
The Maerklin 4036 represents a mid-1950s (Type 1956-1959) coach of the FS. These were very common on Italian and European (SBB, DB, OBB) rails until the 1970s.

One of the things that I love about modelling Switzerland is that you get to model the international consists that could be found behind SBB locomotives on the Gotthard and Simplon routes.
I have a tin plate consist made up of DB and FS rolling stock with a SBB diner. The FS coaches come from the tin plate sets released during the past few years.

I have the Trix 23414 Riviera Express Set of 3 FS UIC-X coaches and added Maerklin DB coaches. I will likely add the new red SBB restaurant to this consist.
I also have the Trix 23477 TEE Roland set which ran through Switzerland to Milano.

In 1/87, I have FS coaches from Lima, ACME, Roco and other brands ranging from 1960s UIC-X to the latest Thello night train coaches that run from Venice to Paris via the Simplon.
There is an Italian forum that has wonderful photos and coach listings for prototypical trains. I will add the link here a little later. The text is in Italian but the photos and the coach lists are universal.

I check the Svizzero (Switzerland) and International Trains Topics often.

Regards

Mike C


DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
Offline mike c  
#13 Posted : 12 February 2015 23:00:07(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Mark/All,

I added the links to my post above

Mike C
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#14 Posted : 13 February 2015 06:57:45(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,655
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
...
Here is a good example of the Maerklin 346/3J (4011) that you mentioned earlier:
http://gmtrain.info/Mark...assenger_Cars/AX-10.html
(While its very nice I'd rather spend 200 Euro on a set... )
Anyway the real reason I post that link is to look at the roof with he banding.
Which goes back to original question about the Primex car.
Has anyone seen a proto of a CIWL with the same kind of "check patterned" roof as the Primex CIWL or was that just a bit of Marklin's mix and match to make the "Old Timer Schlafwagen"? My guess its the latter. .........


Hi Mike,
In my opinion, your summation regarding Marklins treatment of the roof bands is correct.

And in regards to your picture link of the 346/3J, that is a particularly nice example.

I own a few of these cars (you can get them in used condition for more like 30-50 Euro).
While it is not particularly prototypical, based on the German skirted cars of the 38 type, it does have the correct look.
Marklin have this knack of achieving what is passable for a toy train aficionado, rather than a purist.
The roof on that model is VERY typical of steel CIWL cars made in the 1930s/40s.
The real ones were built by manufacturers all over Europe, including the UK, France, Romania, Italy and other countries.

One modeller in Europe named Sulke (and I can no longer find his website) once said in relation to the Primex 2701 set,
“For prototypical model railroaders, these models are enough to make the hair stand on end. But for a friend of toy trains, especially of tin-plate trains, they make you smile.”
I totally agree.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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