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Offline db ice3  
#1 Posted : 10 February 2015 00:12:44(UTC)
db ice3


Joined: 24/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 178
Location: uk
hello again

sorry for more questions from this newby!

adding to my collection ( i now have 3 locos, the white glaskasten, the little v60 shunter and this 460 e-loco ).

i bought this class 460 e loco online, new unused but stored. 34611.

it looks great, its heavy, in super condition.

i thought id let it run both directions on my little test track.


im a little disappointed though. looks i give it 10/10 but performance 5/10.

it doesnt hesitate - but on straight tracks its speeds up and on the 2nd radius curves it slows down - if the speed on the controller isnt constantly being adjusted.
it sounds like a coffee grinder - why would this be?
the head / tail lamps vary in brightness according to the speed of the loco ( even though this is fitted with " universal circuit for use in delta and digital systems " as it say on the box.

doesnt digital systems have a constant brightness for the lamps?

and a final question! - being impressed with the sounds effects of my new shunter ... is it possible to retro-fit a sound decoder and speake to this loco?

many thanks once again everyone for all your help!.
Offline SteamNut  
#2 Posted : 10 February 2015 02:36:35(UTC)
SteamNut

United States   
Joined: 11/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 488
For the noise you might try a bit of lubrication on the especially on the using grease on the gears (I use Trix). Your test track might be dirty try cleaning it this may also explain your light situation as full voltage is not reaching the lok. I found out digital is less forgiving then then older analogs.
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Offline db ice3  
#3 Posted : 10 February 2015 03:42:53(UTC)
db ice3


Joined: 24/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 178
Location: uk
Originally Posted by: SteamNut Go to Quoted Post
For the noise you might try a bit of lubrication on the especially on the using grease on the gears (I use Trix). Your test track might be dirty try cleaning it this may also explain your light situation as full voltage is not reaching the lok. I found out digital is less forgiving then then older analogs.


hi SteamNut + thanks for the reply!

i was thnking perhaps the loco has been stored for a while and hence its noisey - i did wonder if the lubrication the factory applied has dried out.

i will look for and obtain some of the trix grease for the gears - thanks for the suggestion.

the test track is brand new track - but even so, i used vodka on a cotton bud and carefully wiped all the rail surfaces.

the lights brightness is defineitly linked to the speed of the loco however - its very obvious - and at approx half to full speed the lights stay at the same brightness.
Offline mrmarklin  
#4 Posted : 10 February 2015 03:48:53(UTC)
mrmarklin

United States   
Joined: 27/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 890
Location: Burney, CA
It would be normal for a non speed regulated Lok to go slower on curves: this happens on the prototype as well.BigGrin

I believe some of the early Delta chips did not have constant lighting.
From the People's Republik of Kalifornia
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Offline mike c  
#5 Posted : 10 February 2015 06:02:32(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
The 34611 "Miele" loco is a Delta locomotive, which means that it can be used on the four "Delta" addresses and can be set to respond to a limited number of addresses using the Maerklin Motorola digital system. The lights are light bulbs and the intensity of the lights in analog operation is affected by the voltage of the track. I am not certain as to how the lighting will respond to a digital system as I have not used any of my Delta Re 460s on the digital track for a while. I think that the lights are still controlled by the voltage fed into the delta chip.

I will dig out my 34632 (Cargo) or 34633 (Pepsi) and test them when I have a chance. AFAIR the "Miele" loco was released in 1998, the same time as the ones I have.


Regards

Mike C
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Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 10 February 2015 07:48:14(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mrmarklin Go to Quoted Post
I believe some of the early Delta chips did not have constant lighting.
Some? None of the early Delta chips had constant lights - the lights were connected to the motor outputs.
The Delta Controller 6604 could not control F0.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 10 February 2015 08:05:56(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: db ice3 Go to Quoted Post
it sounds like a coffee grinder - why would this be?
Some folks call this maintenance friendly motor "coffee grinder motor" - and I don't know why. Wink
It may need some cleaning and it probably needs lubrication.

Delta decoders have no load regulation and locos slow down in curves and uphill.
Delta decoders typically have headlights connected to the motor output - intensity of lights varies with the speed setting.

You can add sound to the loco - but in my experience you will always hear the model motor through the prototype sounds, so I would not spend money installing sound in such a loco.

With a new decoder, properly installed, and a new motor you will get load regulation and constant lights.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline db ice3  
#8 Posted : 10 February 2015 09:36:16(UTC)
db ice3


Joined: 24/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 178
Location: uk
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!
Originally Posted by: db ice3 Go to Quoted Post
it sounds like a coffee grinder - why would this be?
Some folks call this maintenance friendly motor "coffee grinder motor" - and I don't know why. Wink
It may need some cleaning and it probably needs lubrication.

Delta decoders have no load regulation and locos slow down in curves and uphill.
Delta decoders typically have headlights connected to the motor output - intensity of lights varies with the speed setting.

You can add sound to the loco - but in my experience you will always hear the model motor through the prototype sounds, so I would not spend money installing sound in such a loco.

With a new decoder, properly installed, and a new motor you will get load regulation and constant lights.



hello HO

and thankyou so much for this really useful ( to me anyways ) reply!. -))

the way the lights behave would be in keeping with the thinkg that they are connected to the motor power outputs - they vary exactly in intensity to the motor speed ( and noise! )

and now that you mention it, YES! - i can imagine the sound of a speaker being drowned out by the current motor noise - why didnt i think of this? ... makes perfect sense now!

But, you mention a new decoder and a new motor - this is possible?

would it be fairly straighforward to do or beyond my own abilities - i like to learn to do new things, and i didnt pay too much for this loco soid be happy to use it as a test bed if it meant i learned from it.

what new decoder and motor would you recommend for the 460 loco - one thats quieter and smoother running at low speeds especially - the current motor runs great at faster speeds but at slower speeds it varies in speed a lot and the dim lights as low speeds would be great to be able to bring up to date.
and if the new motor were quieter, then perhaps sound would be worth considering! -)


Mike C - thanks to you too for your reply - the lights go up and down in brightness according to the speed of the loco on my digital system - i wasn not expecting this - and of course with the loco parked, the lights go out completely.

Offline Moritz-BR365  
#9 Posted : 10 February 2015 12:06:38(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: db ice3 Go to Quoted Post

But, you mention a new decoder and a new motor - this is possible?

would it be fairly straighforward to do or beyond my own abilities - i like to learn to do new things, and i didnt pay too much for this loco soid be happy to use it as a test bed if it meant i learned from it.

what new decoder and motor would you recommend for the 460 loco

The most common easy way is the conversion set 60760! You get for ~30€ a 5-pole motor with new permanent magnet, new motor shield and 5-pole anchor. On top there is a simple fx-decoder included which has offically two AUX ports for the head light, but there are two undocumented AUX ports, which can be activated. This simple decoder has load regulation and ABV.

See here for an report how it works: https://www.marklin-user...itor-and-F3-enabled.aspx

For better driving performance, You can insert instead of this simple fx-decoder a high quality decoder like mSD (Märklin with sound) or e.g. Esu LokPilot V4 or LokSound V4.

Additionally, it is possible to replace the plastic bearing with metall ball bearing in the gear box and the motor shield.
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Offline Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS  
#10 Posted : 10 February 2015 12:17:40(UTC)
Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS

Sweden   
Joined: 22/06/2011(UTC)
Posts: 544
Hi!

I actually have one of these locomotives. I also had the same experience you are having. But that is the nature of delta decoders I'm afraid. After having debated on how to convert it I finally settled for a lokpilot v3.5 and a 5* motor. It is now a great runner and lovely to look at.
SBB Era IV - VI
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Offline db ice3  
#11 Posted : 10 February 2015 14:43:59(UTC)
db ice3


Joined: 24/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 178
Location: uk
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: db ice3 Go to Quoted Post

But, you mention a new decoder and a new motor - this is possible?

would it be fairly straighforward to do or beyond my own abilities - i like to learn to do new things, and i didnt pay too much for this loco soid be happy to use it as a test bed if it meant i learned from it.

what new decoder and motor would you recommend for the 460 loco

The most common easy way is the conversion set 60760! You get for ~30€ a 5-pole motor with new permanent magnet, new motor shield and 5-pole anchor. On top there is a simple fx-decoder included which has offically two AUX ports for the head light, but there are two undocumented AUX ports, which can be activated. This simple decoder has load regulation and ABV.

See here for an report how it works: https://www.marklin-user...itor-and-F3-enabled.aspx

For better driving performance, You can insert instead of this simple fx-decoder a high quality decoder like mSD (Märklin with sound) or e.g. Esu LokPilot V4 or LokSound V4.

Additionally, it is possible to replace the plastic bearing with metall ball bearing in the gear box and the motor shield.



Moritz 365 - this is exactly the information i needed - Thankyou So much for this!.

For this Loco, is it worth getting a sound decoder? how much extra do you think it would cost over a non- sound decoder? ( approx )

for electric locos theres not so many sounds like there is for diesel and steam, but :-

what i really would like is a decoder that can control 2 telex couplers that i would like to fit, once iv changed the motor 1st to the 5 pole version.

Oliver sbb cff ffs - thats great to hear you also have a successful outcome with your Loco - and with everyones help here, i hope to also make mine run as nicely as it looks!.

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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#12 Posted : 10 February 2015 15:15:00(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: db ice3 Go to Quoted Post

Moritz 365 - this is exactly the information i needed - Thankyou So much for this!.

For this Loco, is it worth getting a sound decoder? how much extra do you think it would cost over a non- sound decoder? ( approx )

For replacing the motor but using another /Sound)-Decoder, You need:

- 60941 High-Efficiency Motor Conversion Set (~ 22€)

plus one of the following Sound-Decoders:

- 60947 Märklin SoundDecoder mSD (60€)

- Esu LokSound V4 M4 (~99€)

- Doehler&Haas SD21A-4 (~63€)

So, with sound, You need to invest between 80€ and 120€
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Offline db ice3  
#13 Posted : 10 February 2015 15:36:10(UTC)
db ice3


Joined: 24/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 178
Location: uk
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: db ice3 Go to Quoted Post

Moritz 365 - this is exactly the information i needed - Thankyou So much for this!.

For this Loco, is it worth getting a sound decoder? how much extra do you think it would cost over a non- sound decoder? ( approx )

For replacing the motor but using another /Sound)-Decoder, You need:

- 60941 High-Efficiency Motor Conversion Set (~ 22€)

plus one of the following Sound-Decoders:

- 60947 Märklin SoundDecoder mSD (60€)

- Esu LokSound V4 M4 (~99€)

- Doehler&Haas SD21A-4 (~63€)

So, with sound, You need to invest between 80€ and 120€


Moritz - you are a star!!!...

this information is so perfect - its exactly what i need to know.

so now i need to consider which decoder to buy.

i will order the motor kit 60942 today


do you know by any chance, which ( if any? ) of the above sound decoders have an extra 1 or 2 outputs so i can also fit telex couplers to this loco?

that will be the end of my questions! lol
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#14 Posted : 10 February 2015 15:44:24(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: db ice3 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post

For replacing the motor but using another /Sound)-Decoder, You need:

- 60941 High-Efficiency Motor Conversion Set (~ 22€)

plus one of the following Sound-Decoders:

- 60947 Märklin SoundDecoder mSD (60€)

- Esu LokSound V4 M4 (~99€)

- Doehler&Haas SD21A-4 (~63€)

So, with sound, You need to invest between 80€ and 120€


i will order the motor kit 60942 today


do you know by any chance, which ( if any? ) of the above sound decoders have an extra 1 or 2 outputs so i can also fit telex couplers to this loco?

that will be the end of my questions! lol


Hi,
be carefull! If Your loco has the drum collector motor (what I've seen it does!), You need the motor kit 60941!

All Sound Decoders, I listed above, have enough aoutputs to support red rear lights and two Telex couplers. The Esu may have the best sound and has a automatic function for the Telex (Coupler walz), which doesn't exist for the mSD. But for the Esu LokSound V4 M4 mtc21 You need additionally the mtc21 adapter board (~15€). This is included in the Märklin mSD decoder set.

So, best sound and function may provide Esu - for the highest price! The mSD is a good value option with less function (no Telex walz), medium quality sound but very user friendly price and much easier to program than the Esu.
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Offline db ice3  
#15 Posted : 10 February 2015 17:43:49(UTC)
db ice3


Joined: 24/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 178
Location: uk
sorry Moritz - that was MY typing error! - the motor i will order is the 60941!

you say the mSD decoder is much easier to program?

its not already programmed??? - i have no clue about programming decoders ( other than changing the cv values on my central station ).

programming means putting the sounds on? or something else?

do you think there may be a dealer i can call that can supply the decoder ready programmed so all i have to do is solder it into the loco and then its ready to go?
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#16 Posted : 10 February 2015 22:49:08(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: db ice3 Go to Quoted Post
sorry Moritz - that was MY typing error! - the motor i will order is the 60941!

you say the mSD decoder is much easier to program?

its not already programmed??? - i have no clue about programming decoders ( other than changing the cv values on my central station ).

With programming I mean to configure the mapping of Functions to AUX-Ports, like pressing F2 will activate the Telex on side 1 and so on.

If You have already a Central Station 2 (CS2), you can update the Sound file with the CS2 very easily or create Your own sound projects of a mSD Sound decoder.

For Esu and all other sound decoder brands, You need a special hardware, to modify the sound projects.

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