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Offline kimballthurlow  
#1 Posted : 25 January 2015 10:41:31(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,639
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi,
I have about 20 Marklin locos, and all are digital.
Some have SDS, and others have been converted from AC analogue, to MFX.
They all run quietly, with the exception of 2 of them.

37914 is a Br03 streamliner, and the housing creates noise that I can live with.

My E94 from double set 37225 (I sold the 194) is so noisy I would like to fix it if possible.
I guess it is the gear train, but I have no idea how to go about it.

At first I thought "it sounds like a real electric loco", but it somehow drowns out most other sounds on the layout.

Would other members have some ideas on how to rectify this problem.?

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
Offline RayF  
#2 Posted : 25 January 2015 11:38:22(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Hi Kimball,

The traditional Marklin gear drive can be quite inconsistent between similar locos regarding the amount of noise that it produces. I have a 3039 Br110 which is particularly bad in this respect. My advice is to strip the motor bogie down completely, taking out the motor with its armature, brush plate and magnet, and leaving just the block, wheels and gears.

Then clean this assembly thoroughly using alcohol, electrical cleaner, or any other handy solvent. The wheels and gears should now spin very freely. Check that there is no binding when moving the wheels in either direction. If there is you may have a particle of dirt stuck between gears. Try and get the motion as smooth as possible.

Check the faces of the gears for rub marks from other gear wheels. If you see any areas where the gears rub against each other try and file or sand down the offending areas.

When you are happy that everything is spinning freely apply a small drop of oil on each wheel axle and re-assemble the motor. The motor should get one small drop of oil on each end bearing too.

The loco should now run more quietly.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 5 users liked this useful post by RayF
Offline jvuye  
#3 Posted : 25 January 2015 11:46:49(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
.....
My E94 from double set 37225 (I sold the 194) is so noisy I would like to fix it if possible.
I guess it is the gear train, but I have no idea how to go about it.

At first I thought "it sounds like a real electric loco", but it somehow drowns out most other sounds on the layout.

Would other members have some ideas on how to rectify this problem.?

regards
Kimball


Hi Kimball!
The dreaded/beloved coffee grinder noise! BigGrin
back in the 1980's it was common for most of Märklin locos, and often the way one could easily pick a M loco in a crowd!!Laugh
But *it is** annoying, and often curable, albeit sometimes a bit difficult.
The noise is generated as you said by the friction and/or misalignment of of some components of the gear train .

My advice is to disassemble the motorized chassis completely, just leaving the gear train in the first stage.
On the larger gears you **may** notice some nice Wink geometric marks on the larger gears.
If yes, this is likely to be the source of the noise.

It's a combination of causes:

1) the adjacent gear(s) may have small imperfections coming from incomplete de-burring, and small chards of metal left on the points of the teeth are rubbing against the neighbouring wheel.
A close visual examination (magnifying glass required) should make you visualize this better than a million words!

The cure here is disassembling the offender and polish/clean it up. For lateral surfaces , polish them on a fine grinding stone with lubricant.
For burrs on the edge of teeth or inside the gaps, use a needle file. You best lubricant here will be patience

In extreme cases, I have ground whole new gears, using brass. (My old MS 800 is so quiet now with its brand new 42 teeth brass pinion!Wub )

2) excessive play in the gears bearing/journals: you can actually "wobble" the gears laterally.
This is especially true on those gears where the journals are smaller diameters (like 1.5 mm) (On larger diameters (2mm and above) this is not so much of a problem, although not completely unheard of!)
You can pop the bearing axles with small diameters drifts, usually by pushing them from the other side of the chassis (I have a set of small drifts from 1 to 3 mm, in 0.5 mm increments)

The cure here is more complex, the only one I have found to work correctly long term is to machine a larger diameter journal, and adapt the gear.
While I am at it anyway, I insert a bronze bearing in the gear in question (it is machined about 1/50 th of a mm larger than the gear's hole, and pressed in place.
All this has to be done with high precision as you want to keep everything centered!
You'll spend **way more** time centering the piece on your machines (lathe or drilling machine) than doing the machining itself, but that's the name of the game.

This becomes even a little more complicated with compound gears (a large and a small gear mounted together)

These are only a few general considerations...if you get to the point where you can see the "decorations" on the gears, send a few pictures and maybe I can help you with more specifics
(It's easy to mail a couple of gears and small axles in a jiffy envelope from France, it's harder to box the whole loco from Australia!)

Hope this gives you hope, rather than causes discouragement!Wink

Cheers
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#4 Posted : 26 January 2015 00:41:09(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,639
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Ray and Jacques,
Thanks for the comprehensive replies.
I have read, and digested the advice, and pasted all this into Notepad so I won't lose it.
I will be having a go at this, in the next few days.
I will report back.

The other noisy loco (37914) is different - more of a growl, like a bass (violin).
Certainly no whine.
I think that is motor noise, and I intend to fit an MFX 60945 decoder in that one.
From past experience on 2 other older locos, that quietens the motor considerably.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
Offline NZMarklinist  
#5 Posted : 27 January 2015 08:51:36(UTC)
NZMarklinist

New Zealand   
Joined: 15/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,757
Location: Auckland NZ
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Hi Ray and Jacques,
Thanks for the comprehensive replies.
I have read, and digested the advice, and pasted all this into Notepad so I won't lose it.
I will be having a go at this, in the next few days.
I will report back.

The other noisy loco (37914) is different - more of a growl, like a bass (violin).
Certainly no whine.
I think that is motor noise, and I intend to fit an MFX 60945 decoder in that one.
From past experience on 2 other older locos, that quietens the motor considerably.

regards
Kimball



Hi Kimball,

I have not had to resort to pulling down the gear train of any Loks with noisy gear trains as yet, but considering all of my Loks I have bought new or near new, I would hope not. I remember Jacques telling me 10 years ago that all of the Marklin 03's up to that time were generally equipped with gears that were "pressed" rather than milled or cut, and were often noisy Scared
That bore out the experience I had with '03's, and I confess I sold the two that I subsequently acquired as I found they were very noisy. They are not the only culprits as we all know, My BR101's can be a bit noisy as well, but a check of the brush holder alignment often improves this. However for noisy gears I have found that Labelle"s 102 gear oil goes a long way to quietening them. Info on Labelle"s products here : http://www.con-cor.com/Labelle.html

I hope that you have a source for it in Aussie, the stuff I have, I've bought on Trade Me in NZ.

If as Jacques suggests and your '94 needs a strip down you could perhaps send it too "The Train Dr", list member drwhitl, I think he is, here in Auckland. His website is saying no more repairs at the moment but he may consider, to him, simple job like that. He probably has new gears in stock, and they aren't that expensive at all. lets know
Glen
Auckland NZ

" Every Marklin layout needs a V200, a Railbus and a Banana car", not to mention a few Black and red Steamers, oh and the odd Elok !

CS1 Reloaded, Touch Cab, C Track Modules, K track layout all under construction. Currently Insider
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#6 Posted : 27 January 2015 11:33:27(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,639
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: NZMarklinist Go to Quoted Post
.......... However for noisy gears I have found that Labelle"s 102 gear oil goes a long way to quietening them. Info on Labelle"s products here : http://www.con-cor.com/Labelle.html
.....

Hi Glen,
Yes I have the very stuff here.
I will try that first, and see how we go.
I did purchase the 37225 set brand new, and was surprised to find it so noisy.
All my other Marklin purchases were fine.
And thanks for the other tips.

regards
kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
Offline biedmatt  
#7 Posted : 27 January 2015 13:26:08(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post

I did purchase the 37225 set brand new, and was surprised to find it so noisy.


regards
kimball


Bugger, had you known you could have swapped the drive train between the two before you sold the era 4 version.

I too, BTW broke up a set I bought. I do not understand why they cross eras with these multi loko sets.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#8 Posted : 27 January 2015 20:45:20(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,639
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post

I did purchase the 37225 set brand new, and was surprised to find it so noisy.


regards
kimball


Bugger, had you known you could have swapped the drive train between the two before you sold the era 4 version.

I too, BTW broke up a set I bought. I do not understand why they cross eras with these multi loko sets.


Hello Matt,
Yes I have just been thinking about that.
It was some time ago, and I cannot remember for sure if I ran the 194 or not.
I would be surprised if I did not, and my guess is that they were both the same at the time.

They did the same with an offering for the S3/6, which actually are very nice.
I did not buy one of those.

regards
kimball

HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
Offline RayF  
#9 Posted : 27 January 2015 20:53:32(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I agree the sets of two locos from different eras don't usually make sense.

I usually wait for a dealer to split the sets and then I buy the one I like best.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#10 Posted : 28 January 2015 22:48:26(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
My E94 from double set 37225 (I sold the 194) is so noisy I would like to fix it if possible.
I guess it is the gear train, but I have no idea how to go about it.

To replace the plastic bearing in the gear box by a ball bearing and to mount an ball bearing into the motor shield should make the noise much more silent.

Moritz

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Offline Janne75  
#11 Posted : 29 January 2015 12:37:40(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Hi,

Yes, I agree ball bearings can help very much, but not if the noise is caused by some gears. You should also see that the brush holders are 90 degree from the armature and not kind of bent out if you know what I mean? If the brush holders are in bent "position" this will cause a noise created of brushes contacting the armature in wrong position.

Regards,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#12 Posted : 29 January 2015 21:13:12(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,639
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Moritz and Janne,
Thanks for this advice. I will check the brushes.

I did try the La Belle lubrication, and that made no difference.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
Offline jvuye  
#13 Posted : 30 January 2015 11:30:54(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Hi Moritz and Janne,
Thanks for this advice. I will check the brushes.

I did try the La Belle lubrication, and that made no difference.

regards
Kimball


Just a couple more small suggestions before you resolve to perform the major transplant surgery on your "Sorgenkind" as I described above.
If you find the gears' "decoration" I talked about in my post, try coating the "decorated" surfaces of these gears with some graphite filled grease.
The graphite will "stick" to the metal and reduce friction.
I have found that sometimes that's enough to dampen the noise significantly if it doesn't cancel it altogether.
When the racket comes back you can always renew the operation
Also try to "soak" (carefully!) the small pinion (7 or 8 teeth) on the motor shaft with oil...that also can often make a (temporary) difference.
Keep us posted!
Cheers
Jacques
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by jvuye
Offline Tom Jessop  
#14 Posted : 30 January 2015 21:45:57(UTC)
Tom Jessop

Australia   
Joined: 14/12/2002(UTC)
Posts: 800
Location: Newcastle NSW Australia


Just a thought , When I was a telephone tech in a exchange we used to use a mixture of oil & graphite on most moving parts of the old Step by Step switches . The only problem I can see is when the oil drys out , 3 years down the track you would have to do a full pull down & soak in a cleaning solution before reassembly , I might have to have a go on one of noisy engines & see if there is any difference .


Cheers Tom in Oz .
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#15 Posted : 31 January 2015 07:34:45(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,639
Location: Brisbane, Australia
OK,
I have now separated the bogie and motor frame from the main sheet metal chassis.
How well designed it all is.

Brushes are aligned and seated correctly.
Anyway, checked gears for burring, decorations, and or distortions, and could see none.
Thanks Jacques and tom for advice on lubrication. I used graphite grease in all accessible cog surfaces, including the motor cog.

Running the loco without shell at low speed, I am sure what I have is a motor noise.
So perhaps, Moritz may be able to explain further about the "ball bearing" solution.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline Janne75  
#16 Posted : 31 January 2015 11:29:23(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Hi Kimball,

When you install ball bearings in DCM type motor like this E94 has you first dismantle the motor. Then you press out that plastic "bearing" from motor bogie frame with a small flathead screwdriver or similar. It should be pressed towards inside = where the gears are. Next install a proper size ball bearing in this same place by pressing it in from outside or inside of the frame.

Next you have to drill the original motor cover hole from 1.5 mm to 4.0 mm. I do this nowadays without even unsoldering any wires and by just holding the motor cover with my fingers. I use a hand drill with very low rpm speed. First 2.0 mm, then 2.5 mm, 3.0 mm, 3.5 mm and finally 4.0 mm. After this press in the ball bearing. Then assemble the motor back together and test it. If you drilled the hole well in the middle of the motor cover now it should be smoother, not as loud "coffee grinder" noise anymore and less friction and need to lubricate it anymore. ThumpUp

Moritz can maybe give you some other advices? It's maybe best to unsolder the wires from motor cover when doing this for the first time. I have installed ball bearings to around 70-80 locos so I have used to do it now without unsoldering, but I have to be very careful.

Regards,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
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Offline biedmatt  
#17 Posted : 31 January 2015 11:47:15(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Hello Kimball,
This thread should cover all you need to know.
https://www.marklin-user...parts--motor-shield.aspx
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by biedmatt
Offline Tom Jessop  
#18 Posted : 31 January 2015 22:13:53(UTC)
Tom Jessop

Australia   
Joined: 14/12/2002(UTC)
Posts: 800
Location: Newcastle NSW Australia


Silly question time now . Were do I find these bearings , E bay or some where else on the web ?

Cheers Tom in Oz
Offline Shamu  
#19 Posted : 01 February 2015 02:14:51(UTC)
Shamu

Australia   
Joined: 12/07/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,068
Location: In a building site in Yeppoon
Originally Posted by: Tom Jessop Go to Quoted Post


Silly question time now . Were do I find these bearings , E bay or some where else on the web ?

Cheers Tom in Oz


681XZZ (1.5x4x2 mm) Metal Shielded Miniature Ball Bearing from seller "empire.rc", cost about AU$50 for 100 posted.

http://stores.ebay.com/E...681XZZ&x=51&y=15

That's for the 1.5x4.2, I could never find any 2x5x2 for the S/LFC motors and had to go with 2x5x2.5, that's "shielded" however they do have "open cage" ones in 2x5x2, I figured the half a mm poke out was worth it to avoid cat/beard hair getting sucked into a open bearing LOL

If you want I can give you a half dozen if you want to "try before you buy", enough for 3 loco's. Just have to remember what box there in. Confused Blushing
Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
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