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Offline Ken Mitchell  
#1 Posted : 14 January 2015 22:39:48(UTC)
Ken Mitchell

Australia   
Joined: 06/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 67
Location: Berry, NSW
Hi folks,

I have a Br 003 locomotive, recently procured, fitted with a smoke generator unit plus a Br 53 and Br 01 that i am fitting units to shortly. Understand i need some smoke generation fliud. Where do I go from this point to make it all work? Is there a cleaning process after use?

My Br 003 has a green gum around the centre part of the generation assembly, hence the second question, or is this normal? Appreciate guidance as this is very new to me.

Regards Ken.
Offline Philip  
#2 Posted : 16 January 2015 14:56:24(UTC)
Philip


Joined: 20/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 267
Location: , Denmark
Try and take a look at this home page:

http://www.seuthe-dampf.de/start.htm?service.htm

there you can get the information about use etc.

Hope it helps a bit.

Regards Philip
Philip.

Let's keep it simple.
MFDWPL
Offline Br502362  
#3 Posted : 16 January 2015 17:34:37(UTC)
Br502362

Finland   
Joined: 05/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 680
Location: Finland
Hi,

A little bit ot but I have noticed that new (digital age) Märklin 7226 smoke generators don't work very well on analog locomotives. Searched the problem and found out that new generators are for 0-19V current as older were 0-16V so there isn't a lot of smoke with the new unit on analog locomotive.

As I run analog layout I purchased Seuthe 0-16V units which generate more smoke with less current.

BR

Åke
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Offline Ken Mitchell  
#4 Posted : 16 January 2015 21:42:56(UTC)
Ken Mitchell

Australia   
Joined: 06/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 67
Location: Berry, NSW
Originally Posted by: Br502362 Go to Quoted Post
Hi,

A little bit ot but I have noticed that new (digital age) Märklin 7226 smoke generators don't work very well on analog locomotives. Searched the problem and found out that new generators are for 0-19V current as older were 0-16V so there isn't a lot of smoke with the new unit on analog locomotive.

As I run analog layout I purchased Seuthe 0-16V units which generate more smoke with less current.

BR

Åke


Thankyou for that information, very timely as i was about to purchase marklin 7226 units today for 3 of my locomotives. Will discuss with the shop owner. I have ordered from ebay a Seuthe unit which is for the analog engines. I try to buy from the marklin shop dealer in Sydney when i can to give them some business. Regards Ken.
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Offline Ken Mitchell  
#5 Posted : 16 January 2015 21:47:22(UTC)
Ken Mitchell

Australia   
Joined: 06/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 67
Location: Berry, NSW
Originally Posted by: Philip Go to Quoted Post
Try and take a look at this home page:

http://www.seuthe-dampf.de/start.htm?service.htm

there you can get the information about use etc.

Hope it helps a bit.

Regards Philip


Many thanks, Ken
Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 17 January 2015 07:58:01(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: Br502362 Go to Quoted Post
Searched the problem and found out that new generators are for 0-19V current as older were 0-16V so there isn't a lot of smoke with the new unit on analog locomotive.
Where did you find that?
In older Märklin catalogues they state that 7226 is the same as Seuthe #10 and they look the same (and are made by Seuthe anyway).

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline SteamNut  
#7 Posted : 17 January 2015 10:30:11(UTC)
SteamNut

United States   
Joined: 11/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 488
Hello HO. In the old days Marklin always included smoke units with their loks but not no more, which is not right as we pay premium prices. I asked Walther's about this and I was told by Chris there that Marklin decided most users did not want to dirty their loks will the smoke oil to which I replied that they don't have to add oil. I have limited information on smoke units but if you look at Seuthe's site they have technical information on their smoke units especially on the voltage ranges on the units and I have yet to see something from Marklin. While Seuthe supplies the units to Marklin who can say what specifications Marklin requires them to follow? Sears in the US does this all the time with their tools and appliances with Sears telling manufactures what they want. Seuthe #20 is the same as Seuthe #24 in size but at a different voltage range. I can not say for sure but I suspect Marklin uses a higher voltage range with their digital loks because Marklin assumes that they run on digital systems which can explain why digital loks don't smoke that well on analog systems.
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Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 17 January 2015 10:59:35(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: SteamNut Go to Quoted Post
I can not say for sure but I suspect Marklin uses a higher voltage range with their digital loks because Marklin assumes that they run on digital systems which can explain why digital loks don't smoke that well on analog systems.
I suspect you do not now how smoke generators are wired inside a loco.
This wiring could also explain why digital locos give less smoke in analogue operation.

Smoke generators made for a higher voltage will have a higher impedance - so an Ohm meter should reveal differences between Seuthe #10 and Märklin #7226. If there are differences. I suspect there are no differences.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline SteamNut  
#9 Posted : 17 January 2015 13:32:07(UTC)
SteamNut

United States   
Joined: 11/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 488
Tom I only have a basic understanding of electricity but I can understand why the ohm reading can be lower for a higher voltage unit. At least one delta lok that I have, listed in the instructions that with, it has two units one for digital and one for analogue. Marklin does not mention it any more with the newer items. The lok that has two different ones is my 33185 on page 7 it says Seuthe #20 - 16v Delta Seuthe #24 (16-22v). To Ken I would recommend a new Seuthe #20 because of four reasons. One these units don't last forever, two the Seuthe unit comes with a great needle applicator, three it is rated by Seuthe for 10-16v and last they are a bit cheaper then Marklin.
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Offline Br502362  
#10 Posted : 18 January 2015 07:16:19(UTC)
Br502362

Finland   
Joined: 05/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 680
Location: Finland
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!
Originally Posted by: Br502362 Go to Quoted Post
Searched the problem and found out that new generators are for 0-19V current as older were 0-16V so there isn't a lot of smoke with the new unit on analog locomotive.
Where did you find that?
In older Märklin catalogues they state that 7226 is the same as Seuthe #10 and they look the same (and are made by Seuthe anyway).



I remember that I read it somewhere a few years ago. But there is a difference. I just measured resistance of both units. Märklin 7226 is 41 ohm and Seuthe #10 is 38 ohms.

Cheers

Åke
Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 18 January 2015 08:49:55(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Åke!
Originally Posted by: Br502362 Go to Quoted Post
I remember that I read it somewhere a few years ago.
The newest M* catalogue I have from BigD is the 2009/2010 yearbook.
There they write: "The 7226 smoke generator is identical to the Seuthe no. 10, and the 72270 smoke generator is identical to the Seuthe no. 20."

Seuthe No. 10 and No. 20 are specified for 10 - 16 V (not 0 to 16 V).

Originally Posted by: Br502362 Go to Quoted Post
But there is a difference. I just measured resistance of both units. Märklin 7226 is 41 ohm and Seuthe #10 is 38 ohms.
If the Seuthe is for max. 16.00 V then the Märklin would be for max. 17.26 V .
Would be interesting to measure 10 of each as the smoke generators seem to show quite some variation. I think I have some on the shelf.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Br502362  
#12 Posted : 18 January 2015 15:52:54(UTC)
Br502362

Finland   
Joined: 05/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 680
Location: Finland
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi, Åke!
Originally Posted by: Br502362 Go to Quoted Post
I remember that I read it somewhere a few years ago.
The newest M* catalogue I have from BigD is the 2009/2010 yearbook.
There they write: "The 7226 smoke generator is identical to the Seuthe no. 10, and the 72270 smoke generator is identical to the Seuthe no. 20."

Seuthe No. 10 and No. 20 are specified for 10 - 16 V (not 0 to 16 V).

Originally Posted by: Br502362 Go to Quoted Post
But there is a difference. I just measured resistance of both units. Märklin 7226 is 41 ohm and Seuthe #10 is 38 ohms.
If the Seuthe is for max. 16.00 V then the Märklin would be for max. 17.26 V .
Would be interesting to measure 10 of each as the smoke generators seem to show quite some variation. I think I have some on the shelf.


Hi Tom 😊

You are right abut the voltage. I wrote wrong.
I have two of those Märklin 7226s and both were 41 ohms. I took another Seuthe #10 unit out of my BR50 and got same 38 ohm resistance as what I got earlier from the spare unit.

Cheers

Åke
Offline Ken Mitchell  
#13 Posted : 19 January 2015 04:28:26(UTC)
Ken Mitchell

Australia   
Joined: 06/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 67
Location: Berry, NSW
Originally Posted by: SteamNut Go to Quoted Post
Tom I only have a basic understanding of electricity but I can understand why the ohm reading can be lower for a higher voltage unit. At least one delta lok that I have, listed in the instructions that with, it has two units one for digital and one for analogue. Marklin does not mention it any more with the newer items. The lok that has two different ones is my 33185 on page 7 it says Seuthe #20 - 16v Delta Seuthe #24 (16-22v). To Ken I would recommend a new Seuthe #20 because of four reasons. One these units don't last forever, two the Seuthe unit comes with a great needle applicator, three it is rated by Seuthe for 10-16v and last they are a bit cheaper then Marklin.


Thankyou for the conversation and advice above. One of my loks has the smoke unit fitted, suspect it is a standard marklin 7226 for analogue. Have order a # 10 seuthe kit from the US so will play around and follow your recommendation on the # 20 units for the the other loks i have. Regards ken
Offline H0  
#14 Posted : 19 January 2015 20:50:34(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: SteamNut Go to Quoted Post
At least one delta lok that I have, listed in the instructions that with, it has two units one for digital and one for analogue. Marklin does not mention it any more with the newer items.
There is an important difference: if the smoke generator is connected directly to the track voltage, then you will need different smoke generators for digital and analogue operation - at least with older digital equipment like CU 6021.
If the smoke generator is connected to a decoder output, then you will need Seuthe #10 or #20 for digital operation as there is a voltage drop inside the decoder and the wiring scheme will also reduce the effective voltage at the smoke generator.
There also is a voltage drop with analogue operation, so a modern 37xxx loco with controllable smoke generator will give less smoke than a Delta loco or an analogue loco simply because the smoke generator gets a lower voltage.

With a CU 6021 you get a track voltage of about 22 V. With an MS2 running on 18 V DC you only get a track voltage of about 16 V. That's another reason why Märklin no longer mention #11 or #24 in some recent manuals (like the BR 24 #36240 where the smoke generator cannot be switched). Early versions of the #36240 manual wrote that #24 was needed for digital operation, but with an MS2 you may not get enough smoke.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline kiwiAlan  
#15 Posted : 19 January 2015 21:58:37(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Ken Mitchell Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: SteamNut Go to Quoted Post
Tom I only have a basic understanding of electricity but I can understand why the ohm reading can be lower for a higher voltage unit. At least one delta lok that I have, listed in the instructions that with, it has two units one for digital and one for analogue. Marklin does not mention it any more with the newer items. The lok that has two different ones is my 33185 on page 7 it says Seuthe #20 - 16v Delta Seuthe #24 (16-22v). To Ken I would recommend a new Seuthe #20 because of four reasons. One these units don't last forever, two the Seuthe unit comes with a great needle applicator, three it is rated by Seuthe for 10-16v and last they are a bit cheaper then Marklin.


Thankyou for the conversation and advice above. One of my loks has the smoke unit fitted, suspect it is a standard marklin 7226 for analogue. Have order a # 10 seuthe kit from the US so will play around and follow your recommendation on the # 20 units for the the other loks i have. Regards ken


Note that the 7226 (Seuthe No 10) is a 5mm diameter unit which is pushed into the funnel from outside without taking the loco body off.

The 72270 is a 3.5mm diameter unit fitted to the funnel from inside after taking the loco body off the chassis.

The two units are not interchangeable - your piece above seems to be saying you think they are interchangeable.

If you need one with a different voltage then refer to the Seuthe documentation to find one with the same body size.

Offline Ken Mitchell  
#16 Posted : 22 January 2015 00:29:44(UTC)
Ken Mitchell

Australia   
Joined: 06/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 67
Location: Berry, NSW
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Ken Mitchell Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: SteamNut Go to Quoted Post
Tom I only have a basic understanding of electricity but I can understand why the ohm reading can be lower for a higher voltage unit. At least one delta lok that I have, listed in the instructions that with, it has two units one for digital and one for analogue. Marklin does not mention it any more with the newer items. The lok that has two different ones is my 33185 on page 7 it says Seuthe #20 - 16v Delta Seuthe #24 (16-22v). To Ken I would recommend a new Seuthe #20 because of four reasons. One these units don't last forever, two the Seuthe unit comes with a great needle applicator, three it is rated by Seuthe for 10-16v and last they are a bit cheaper then Marklin.


Thankyou for the conversation and advice above. One of my loks has the smoke unit fitted, suspect it is a standard marklin 7226 for analogue. Have order a # 10 seuthe kit from the US so will play around and follow your recommendation on the # 20 units for the the other loks i have. Regards ken


Note that the 7226 (Seuthe No 10) is a 5mm diameter unit which is pushed into the funnel from outside without taking the loco body off.

The 72270 is a 3.5mm diameter unit fitted to the funnel from inside after taking the loco body off the chassis.

The two units are not interchangeable - your piece above seems to be saying you think they are interchangeable.


If you need one with a different voltage then refer to the Seuthe documentation to find one with the same body size.


Thankyou for the discussion. I have all analogue loks with external funnel mountings at 5 mm. Think i am on the right track with the suethe no 10. Regards ken
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Offline Ken Mitchell  
#17 Posted : 23 January 2015 06:03:17(UTC)
Ken Mitchell

Australia   
Joined: 06/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 67
Location: Berry, NSW
Originally Posted by: Ken Mitchell Go to Quoted Post
Hi folks,

I have a Br 003 locomotive, recently procured, fitted with a smoke generator unit plus a Br 53 and Br 01 that i am fitting units to shortly. Understand i need some smoke generation fliud. Where do I go from this point to make it all work? Is there a cleaning process after use?

My Br 003 has a green gum around the centre part of the generation assembly, hence the second question, or is this normal? Appreciate guidance as this is very new to me.

Regards Ken.


Hello folks,

Thankyou for the feedback and advice re the subject. Recieved two suethe smoke generation kits yesterday and fitted to my Br050 and Br 01, both working very well. I am happyBigGrin with the look and results. Thankyou again. Kind regards ken
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