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Offline db ice3  
#1 Posted : 06 January 2015 17:57:08(UTC)
db ice3


Joined: 24/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 178
Location: uk
hi everyone

what do folks do / use to control points via central station 60213?

the marklin points decoder under the point ( which i admit is a nice neat solution as everything is hidden )

or separate points decoder which can drive up to 4 or 6 points - but a cable needs to run from the decoder to each point.

i dont know which route to go down.
Offline sjlauritsen  
#2 Posted : 06 January 2015 19:48:55(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
If you are building a permanent layout, I would go for an under the table decoder (e.g. m83). If it's a temporary layout I would go for an under the point decoder.
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by sjlauritsen
Offline ice 1  
#3 Posted : 06 January 2015 21:08:27(UTC)
ice 1


Joined: 30/12/2014(UTC)
Posts: 123
Location: IRELAND
Im sure the decoder which can operate 5 or 6 points is a cheaper option
I cant see how one decoder can run 4 or 5 points as when you type in the decoder address wont all 4 or 5 points change together
Offline db ice3  
#4 Posted : 06 January 2015 22:18:45(UTC)
db ice3


Joined: 24/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 178
Location: uk
hi ice1

sorry i must have written this wrong! lol

there is a multi point decoder avail - it can accept 4 or 6 addresses depedning on the unit - and this can drive 4 or 6 points as sjlauritsen suggests.

Offline ice 1  
#5 Posted : 06 January 2015 23:15:13(UTC)
ice 1


Joined: 30/12/2014(UTC)
Posts: 123
Location: IRELAND
HI
Im new to all this but i checked out the M83 Decoder ref 60831 its about $37 and the motor for each point is about $17 so it works out alot cheaper to me than putting a decoder in each point say ref 74461 at $30.
The only problem i can see with the M83 is do they give you much wire comming from the point motor to the M83 box as i would like to have my M83 box beside my controller i looked on youtube at how you wire up the M83 from the point motor and it looks easy
As i said my only problem is the amount of wire you get with each point motor in case your points are spread out or can you buy rolls of the wire comming from the point motor and just cut it to whatever lenght you want
Im sure you can screw the M83 box under your layout if the points are all close and it suits you to do it that way.
Offline sjlauritsen  
#6 Posted : 07 January 2015 06:21:28(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: ice 1 Go to Quoted Post
i would like to have my M83 box beside my controller

My suggestion is to group your points into groups of four and then place the m83 near the group it controls. The m83 only needs to be fed with the digital signal (and perhaps an external power supply). It is much easier to do it this way, and you will not have long wires going to the points. The wire that comes with the point motor should be long enough for this purpose.

When the m83 (or any other point decoder) is installed and running, there is really no need to be able to see it. The decoder also supports PoM (Programming on Main), so programming can be done at any time without having to dismantle the setup.
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
Offline ice 1  
#7 Posted : 07 January 2015 10:34:15(UTC)
ice 1


Joined: 30/12/2014(UTC)
Posts: 123
Location: IRELAND
Hi
I see this programming on the main mentioned alot would like to know what does it mean and when is it used.
I know in D/c it gives you the option for changing decoder settings on locos the main or service track.
I have the Mobile Station 1 and it cant control points etc i am planning a layout was on about getting a Central Station in a set for operating points etc but i see you can use the new mobile station with the M83 for operating points and it can run 10 locos so i think thats plenty for me may need a booster down the road as i know interior lighting eats up the power but its alot cheaper option than CS2 im sure many buy the CS2 and im sure dont really need it but its there money i will get the MS2 in a starter set as i need the track works out cheaper in the long run.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by ice 1
Offline sjlauritsen  
#8 Posted : 07 January 2015 10:51:25(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: ice 1 Go to Quoted Post
I see this programming on the main mentioned alot would like to know what does it mean and when is it used.
I know in D/c it gives you the option for changing decoder settings on locos the main or service track.

Programming on the main simply gives you the option to change the CV's of the decoder without having to connect it to a programming track. It is actually not a D/C only feature, but a feature of the digital system. MFX is also using a kind of programming on the main for the majority of things, it just does not have a fancy name.

A MS2 may be enough for your needs at the moment. I would definitely consider that. Please be advised that a booster is not possible with the MS2. You will need to own a CS2 to add a booster. (Perhaps you can cook something up DIY, but the official and supported way is to buy a CS2 and add a booster). But go with the MS2 and wait until a booster is really necessary. It will propably take a while before you get there.



Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 07 January 2015 11:33:38(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: sjlauritsen Go to Quoted Post
Please be advised that a booster is not possible with the MS2.
There are several people who use boosters with the MS2. Märklin do not currently offer boosters for the MS2.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline sjlauritsen  
#10 Posted : 07 January 2015 11:50:50(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
There are several people who use boosters with the MS2. Märklin do not currently offer boosters for the MS2.

As I said: You can cook something up, but it is not a supported way to go. Depending on your skills you can always add to the MS2-system, but people need to know that it is not a supported way to go.

Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 07 January 2015 12:11:07(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: sjlauritsen Go to Quoted Post
[...] but people need to know that it is not a supported way to go.
Not a way supported by Märklin. Märklin "boosters" 6604 and 66045 work with an MS2. Discontinued Märklin items, but you just have to wire them as documented in the Märklin manual (no DIY cooking and all Märklin - unless you want to add mfx feedback).

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline ice 1  
#12 Posted : 07 January 2015 12:25:54(UTC)
ice 1


Joined: 30/12/2014(UTC)
Posts: 123
Location: IRELAND
Thanks i see what you both mean buy a MS2 new but if you go adding a booster whatever way you do it and your MS2 dies under warranty Marklin wont want to know your on your own i take it thats what Sjlauritsen is saying or else its just not designed to be worked with a booster why would they design it that way nobody would buy the CS2 then would they
Offline sjlauritsen  
#13 Posted : 07 January 2015 12:32:29(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: ice 1 Go to Quoted Post
I take it thats what Sjlauritsen is saying.

Yup! If you know what you're doing there is no harm done in testing different setups. But I have seen my share of people starting in digital burning their fingers by following an advice that deviates from the intended use of the product. Personally, I find it more comfortable just sticking to the intended use and then accept whatever extra costs it gives me.
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
Offline RayF  
#14 Posted : 07 January 2015 14:00:07(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Hi Søren,

Marklin actually recommend the use of a Delta controller (6604/66045) as a booster for digital layouts, and this use is independent of the controller used. I would therefore have no difficulty in using this device in this way. In fact I have kept my old 66045 just for this purpose, though I haven't needed it yet. For the moment my MS2 can handle all the trains I can run on my small layout.

It would be very unfair of Marklin to invalidate a MS2 guarantee just because a booster has been included in the layout wiring, when they themselves have recommended the use of the Delta controller in this way. More to the point, how would they know?

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline ice 1  
#15 Posted : 07 January 2015 14:08:06(UTC)
ice 1


Joined: 30/12/2014(UTC)
Posts: 123
Location: IRELAND
Hi
Just thought they would know by whatever caused the controller to die in the first place when they examined it.
Im sure they read these site forums to and if they said a booster caused it isnt that it your not going to go down the legal road.
All these warranties are great till ya need to use them think it used to be a year with Marklin is it 2 now or is that just in USA only
Just checked older locos its 12 month warranty newer ones 24 month.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#16 Posted : 07 January 2015 14:16:08(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Hi Søren,

Marklin actually recommend the use of a Delta controller (6604/66045) as a booster for digital layouts, and this use is independent of the controller used. I would therefore have no difficulty in using this device in this way. In fact I have kept my old 66045 just for this purpose, though I haven't needed it yet. For the moment my MS2 can handle all the trains I can run on my small layout.

It would be very unfair of Marklin to invalidate a MS2 guarantee just because a booster has been included in the layout wiring, when they themselves have recommended the use of the Delta controller in this way. More to the point, how would they know?



IIRC they recommend the inclusion of the little plastic rockers for the pickup shoes when doing this. Without them you will blow up either the mobile station and/or the delta controller.

You also have to use separate transformers for the booster and the mobile station.

Offline RayF  
#17 Posted : 07 January 2015 14:19:59(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: ice 1 Go to Quoted Post
Hi
Just thought they would know by whatever caused the controller to die in the first place when they examined it.
Im sure they read these site forums to and if they said a booster caused it isnt that it your not going to go down the legal road.
All these warranties are great till ya need to use them think it used to be a year with Marklin is it 2 now or is that just in USA only


Of course I would never recommend anyone to do something they're not comfortable with.

I just want to point out that there is no way to detect that a booster has been used on the same layout as a MS2, and if you tell them yourself it's still the case that the Booster is being used in accordance with their recommendations, so you can't really lose.

The way the Delta controller functions as a booster is that it strips away the digital information from the track feed you connect to it, and then adds this information to its own output but with a higher current rating. You would end up with one section of track powered directly by the MS2, with full mfx feedback, and then another section powered from the Delta controller with the same digital control signals on it, but with no mfx feedback.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline RayF  
#18 Posted : 07 January 2015 14:25:38(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Hi Søren,

Marklin actually recommend the use of a Delta controller (6604/66045) as a booster for digital layouts, and this use is independent of the controller used. I would therefore have no difficulty in using this device in this way. In fact I have kept my old 66045 just for this purpose, though I haven't needed it yet. For the moment my MS2 can handle all the trains I can run on my small layout.

It would be very unfair of Marklin to invalidate a MS2 guarantee just because a booster has been included in the layout wiring, when they themselves have recommended the use of the Delta controller in this way. More to the point, how would they know?



IIRC they recommend the inclusion of the little plastic rockers for the pickup shoes when doing this. Without them you will blow up either the mobile station and/or the delta controller.

You also have to use separate transformers for the booster and the mobile station.



Alan, I believe you're right, although i recall reading posts from members who use this method without the rockers and with no ill effects.

I think you're probably OK if you don't stop the loco with the slider bridging both sections.

The way I intend to use it is to have a totally seperate area for the direct feed from the MS2 to be used as a programming track and to register the locos. I would then transfer them to the main part of the layout under control of the Delta booster.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline ice 1  
#19 Posted : 07 January 2015 14:31:29(UTC)
ice 1


Joined: 30/12/2014(UTC)
Posts: 123
Location: IRELAND
Hi
But getting back to a point i made why would Marklin offer a booster to go with the MS2 from when it was released to me its because nobody would then buy the CS2 or is that to simplistic.
For me i dont see the point in getting a CS2 and only useing a quarter or maybe more of its capacity and functions could they not charge more for a booster and make money that way still cheaper than buying a CS2 for me.
Offline RayF  
#20 Posted : 07 January 2015 14:58:21(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: ice 1 Go to Quoted Post
Hi
But getting back to a point i made why would Marklin offer a booster to go with the MS2 from when it was released to me its because nobody would then buy the CS2 or is that to simplistic.
For me i dont see the point in getting a CS2 and only useing a quarter or maybe more of its capacity and functions could they not charge more for a booster and make money that way still cheaper than buying a CS2 for me.


The MS1 and MS2 were only ever intended for small layouts. For a large layout with multiple booster sections they intended the use of a CS1 and then CS2. The current CS2 combines the functionality of two MS2, a booster, Computer interface, and a few other functions.

I believe that where you and I fall is on the side of the MS2, but if we expand we may become borderline on power, though hardly yet in the realms of the CS2. The use of a basic booster like the 6604/66045 fits just right for when I choose to expand, but I would probably get a second MS2 before that. The second MS2 does not increase the power handling ability, it just gives the ability to control two trains at the same time, or a train with one and a solenoid device with the other.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline ice 1  
#21 Posted : 07 January 2015 16:54:55(UTC)
ice 1


Joined: 30/12/2014(UTC)
Posts: 123
Location: IRELAND
Yes what you mean with the CS2 you can do more complex things in relation to running locos.
I take it shuttle operation will work with 60883 and the MS2
But i take it with the MS2 I can get one loco goin and then another going and then other going and flick onto my points menu and change a few point settings as i wish and my 3 loco or trains are still going around the layout etc running.
The only problem i suppose is sets with interior lighting like ICE 1 and ICE 3 and certain Railcars they will eat up the power and then the points wont operate as requested etc due to lack of power.
Can the controller tell you the power the layout is useing etc
Offline RayF  
#22 Posted : 07 January 2015 17:15:14(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: ice 1 Go to Quoted Post
Yes what you mean with the CS2 you can do more complex things in relation to running locos.
I take it shuttle operation will work with 60883 and the MS2
But i take it with the MS2 I can get one loco goin and then another going and then other going and flick onto my points menu and change a few point settings as i wish and my 3 loco or trains are still going around the layout etc running.
The only problem i suppose is sets with interior lighting like ICE 1 and ICE 3 and certain Railcars they will eat up the power and then the points wont operate as requested etc due to lack of power.
Can the controller tell you the power the layout is useing etc


I've never seen it do so. How many trains do you intend to run at any one time?
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline ice 1  
#23 Posted : 07 January 2015 17:23:06(UTC)
ice 1


Joined: 30/12/2014(UTC)
Posts: 123
Location: IRELAND
Well i would want at least 3 or 4 running at the one time its not much of a controller if it cant do that.
Offline RayF  
#24 Posted : 07 January 2015 17:34:40(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: ice 1 Go to Quoted Post
Well i would want at least 3 or 4 running at the one time its not much of a controller if it cant do that.


Three to four trains with lighted coaches is probably approaching the limit for a MS2. On my layout I never have more than 3 trains running at a time, and more usually only one or two.

To save power you can install LED lights in coaches instead of the kits with light bulbs.

Another good idea is if you have any storage sidings where you might keep locos not actually running then you can install isolating switches on those tracks so that the decoders are not drawing power all the time.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline H0  
#25 Posted : 07 January 2015 18:21:30(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: ice 1 Go to Quoted Post
Can the controller tell you the power the layout is useing etc
Yes, scroll down the Information menu of the MS2.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline RayF  
#26 Posted : 07 January 2015 21:17:19(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ice 1 Go to Quoted Post
Can the controller tell you the power the layout is useing etc
Yes, scroll down the Information menu of the MS2.



Mine doesn't say anything about power in the information menu, only the serial number, the software and hardware versions a number for LDB which I assume is loco database, and the indication that it is the CAN master.

Maybe the power draw info is only on later software versions?
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline H0  
#27 Posted : 07 January 2015 21:41:49(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Maybe the power draw info is only on later software versions?
This feature came with version 1.64 in September 2011.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
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