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Offline Martin T  
#1 Posted : 28 December 2014 22:15:41(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 872
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Hi!

I´ve been struggling for a VERY long time now to find ways to arrange the electrical system in a way, so it supports a fully automatic traffic scenario.

Some history over where I come from in this...
Someone with no experience in this field says "What´s the big deal? Just connect the wires from the CS2 to the track and you´re ready to go!".
That´s basically where I started and I can for sure that it was not the way to go. With many trains on the tracks I got large voltage drops along the lines so the trains were slowing down and the k83´s didn´t get enough power to control the turn outs.

STEP 2:
I then added a feeding Point every 2 meter and fed the Power through a pair of 2x 4mm2 Cable. In some instanses I still got problems with the k83´s not getting enough Power to securly Control the turnouts.

STEP 3:
I realized that the lamps in the laterns in each turnout consumed all Power available from the CS2 and more. All the lamps were removed. I still were sometimes getting sluggish and non-reliable turnout Control from the k83.

STEP 3:
I now added a separate 2x4mm2 Cable which only feeds the k83 decoders. Now the Power is not lacking to the k83, but on the other hand the Power from the k83 is quite insufficient to Control the M-rail turnouts unless they are in perfect condition and operated a few times back and forth ahead of every new traffic session.

STEP 4:
Märklin launched the m83 with possibility to feed the turnout with a separate 19VDC Power line. GREAT!!! I changed all of the k83s to m83 and Power the from a 19VDC/300VA (max 15 Amps) transformer. Now at last I got serious reliability in the operation of the turnouts. Now I run into another problem. Typically when several people are operating the railroad in different locations short periods of short circuits will happen. It happens during shunting, or when adding new cars etc. Since the feed now is very "stiff" to each consumer the short powerdown will effect all the consumers equally in the system. If the PC sends out a number of switch commands during this period the turnouts will not switch and the PC will not know about it, since the turnouts has no feedback.

I have only like 12 trains running simultaniously on my layout and only up to 4 different operators. There are much much bigger layouts around so I guess my problems must have a solution.

Ideally would be to have a mfx Power source which is not affected by any CS2 Power downs in the track power due to short Circuits, or even manual switch off of track Power. Can this be achieved by adding boosters, or will they Power down when the CS2 Power down too? I need them to stay on line and effectuate any turnout commands coming through the LAN to the CS2 operating the turnouts.

One more thing which might be of intrest is that each locomotive has a IR-LED built in. It activats an IR-sensor in the rail on passage. It therefore needs to be at least 3V of track Power in the short moment the loco passes the sensor. However, I don´t see that this would be a major impact on the reliability of the system. The sensor is fed on a completly separate 5VDC line and has nothing to do with the rest of the electrical system. The s88 signal is sent back on a flatcable, but I have not noted any interference at all in this part of the system. Also the new locos work like "no Power - no movement". Anyway this is not a part of the problem. I just wanted to explain it too.. :)

I would be more than thankful for help with this matter.

Edited by user 29 December 2014 07:49:28(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
Offline clapcott  
#2 Posted : 29 December 2014 02:51:57(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Hi Martin,
Just some initial thoughts/comments

Quote:
With many trains on the tracks I got large voltage drops along the lines so the trains were slowing down and the k83's didn´t get enough power to control the turn outs.
I would never recommend tapping accessories off the track.
Even if you only had one controller, a separate bus for accessories (divided from the track feed at the CS2 output) will allow for switched isolation so that you can set points/signals with track power off.
At a later stage this makes separation to another booster/controller easier.

Quote:
... fed the Power through a pair of 2x 4mm2 Cable. In some instances I still got problems with the k83´s not getting enough Power to securely Control the turnouts.
Wow "a pair of 2x4mm2"! - (You may want to clarify the meaning of this) However in the context of accessories being driven from the CS2 this is almost meaningless - with only one device being driven at a time, it is the device requirements that are to be focused on. You can extend the pulse of the k83 - refer settings in CS2 - default is 200ms, Mtrack could do with 500ms

Quote:
I realized that the lamps in the semaphores in each turnout consumed all Power available from the CS2
??? M-Track lanterns may be (and by default buffer stops). But semaphore Lights!!!
Something is wrong here, and you are correct to eliminate

Quote:
I now added a separate 2x4mm2 Cable which only feeds the k83 decoders.
As above - Separate feed Good, 4mm2? not the real issue here
Quote:
... k83 is quite insufficient to Control the M-rail turnouts ....
If a k83 (maybe with extended pulse width) cannot move a turnout then the turnout needs to be the focus. The K83 acts as a CDU and provides a pulse of 22V DC. The traditional analogue solution did offer a "vibrating=50/60Hz" AC at 16V.

Quote:
.... 19VDC/300VA (aprox 5 Amps) transformer
300 divided by 20 = 15 Amps. However an individual m83 port would likely burn up first (e.g. if the output wiring was shorted). Sounds dangerous!
Quote:
.... If the PC sends out a number of switch commands during this period ....
The PC/Software SHOULD be well aware that the controller has shut down AND SHOULD NOT send any (Accessory) commands in this situation.
Software commands to the controller for accessories require a "Start pulse" command and a "Stop Pulse" command. Therefore sending them with poweroff are meaningless.
The PC should not be relying on "what it sends" to the CS2 in order to show status, it should be monitoring "what the CS2 has done"

Quote:
I have only like 12 trains running simultaneously on my layout and only up to 4 different operators. There are much much bigger layouts around so I guess my problems must have a solution.
What does the CS2 current (Amps) display show? If your trains are long (heavy) and/or have sound and/or you have gradients then I suggest that a Booster would have been considered well before getting to a 12 concurrent train running situation.

Quote:
Ideally ... Power source which is not affected by ... short Circuits, or ... manual switch off of track Power. Can this be achieved by adding boosters,
The current Marklin solution provides for only the affected booster that detects the short to switch off.
HOWEVER,
a) if you do not acknowledge the first message (maybe dismiss it while fixing the problem) then the CS2 Stop button needs to be pressed off/on to wake up the booster - this does affects everything. A PC command to power on (without the power off) may help - i.e. not one toggle button for power but two.
b) any Manual stop will affect all power outputs (including a separate Accessory bus)

I suggest a separate controller (e.g. old CS1) for accessory only control connected to the PC/Software in such a way that it does not turn off when the CS2 does
Peter
thanks 6 users liked this useful post by clapcott
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