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Offline baggio  
#1 Posted : 13 December 2014 18:25:48(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Hello, Everyone:

I bought very recently a Marklin 30000 to replace in digital the 3000 vintage I still have.

It developed very quickly the problem that after I finish playing with it and shut off the power, when I turn the power back on, it won't start again unless I lift it off the track about 45 degrees. It then starts and works just fine.

At one point I thought it was my feeder track, but that turned out to be wrong.

I do like the little loco, especially its speed, but this problem is annoying.

Any words of wisdom?

Thanks.

P.S. The dealer had another 30000 and that had another problem and would not start at all right in the shop. Makes me wonder if this unit is bad as a series from the factory. Hope not.
Offline RayF  
#2 Posted : 13 December 2014 18:45:18(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Hi Baggio,

The 30000 is not that different mechanically from the 3000 with its 60 years of heritage. The motor is the well proven dcm motor, which is quite bulletproof.

I don't think there is a fundamental problem with the type, just a localised problem with yours. Have you tried changing the brushes? Or maybe the slider is not making good contact? Try giving it a good service and see if this solves the problem.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by RayF
Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 14 December 2014 09:59:58(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Baggio!
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Any words of wisdom?
Can you provide more information?
  1. Is the loco standing still with lights on and humming motor?
  2. Is the loco standing still with lights on but without any noise/sound?
  3. Is the loco standing still with lights off?

1 could indicate a mechanical lock (maybe a problem with the quatering of wheels).
2 could indicate a contact problem inside the loco (maybe a problem with the brushes).
3 could indicate a contact problem between track and loco or between wheelsets and loco.

Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Makes me wonder if this unit is bad as a series from the factory. Hope not.
No problems so far with my #30000.


Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
The 30000 is not that different mechanically from the 3000 with its 60 years of heritage.
Under the hood the #30000 doesn't have much in common with a 30 year old #3000.
The former has five-pole DCM and only one axle driven by cogwheels, the latter has three-pole SFCM and all axles driven by cogwheels. Therefore one can have problems the other will never have - and vice versa.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline baggio  
#4 Posted : 14 December 2014 13:47:02(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
No lights, the loco is dead, until I lift it off the track completely or I lift the front 45 degrees so that the shoe is off the track. When I put it back all is well, the loco works just fine.

Since my post, it has started to run normally again, meaning I shut off the power and works fine when I turn it on. I suspect some sort of internal short that intermittently cuts off the power at start up.

It has three axles powered according to a website advertisement.
Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 14 December 2014 15:30:32(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
It has three axles powered according to a website advertisement.
Yep. There was a time when the description in the product database was useful.

Old #3000 has three axles powered by cogwheels.
Current #30000 has one axle powered by cogwheels, the other two axles are powered by rods driven by the directly powered axle. So there still are three powered axles, but the old type had three directly driven axles.

Since your loco shows no lights when it does not move there is no problem with a mechanical lock and it doesn't matter how axles are powered.

A short would trigger the overload protection of the controller. So probably there is no short, but an interrupted contact.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline RayF  
#6 Posted : 14 December 2014 16:35:22(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post


....

Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
The 30000 is not that different mechanically from the 3000 with its 60 years of heritage.
Under the hood the #30000 doesn't have much in common with a 30 year old #3000.
The former has five-pole DCM and only one axle driven by cogwheels, the latter has three-pole SFCM and all axles driven by cogwheels. Therefore one can have problems the other will never have - and vice versa.


I don't have the benefit of owning a 30000, though I intend to add one to my collection at some point. Basing myself on the exploded diagrams availble on-line I can see that the loco is essentially identical to an old 3000 with an added 5 pole conversion kit like a 60943. They have also left out some of the gears between axles, so that only one axle is driven directly from the gears. I see much in common between the old 3000 and the new 30000.

Nevertheless, even if you consider these to be major differences I don't see anything in the new design that would add any complication either electrically or mechanically to the 60 year old design, other than the decoder. The only electrical contact points that could be intermittent are the contact between the slider and the contact plate behind, or between the brushes and the commutator, unless there is a dry soldered joint somewhere between these two extremes.

Mechanical binding on a simple drive like this one is not a possibility I would seriously consider, as Baggio tells us that the loco runs well when it gets going.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline baggio  
#7 Posted : 14 December 2014 16:48:36(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
What makes no sense to me is that when I shut off the power the loco was running just fine. It's when I turn it back on that there is a problem. Usually the other locos are not affected as well. On the odd occasion one other loco is the same way, but very sporadically.

Incidentally, if my layout were too large for one remote control system and I needed a booster, what kind of effect would this have on the functionality of the layout?

In this respect, I keep four locos on the layout at all times. Each with its own parking spot. I turn on the power and I choose which loco I want to run. These days the 30000 is my favourite and I usually gravitate around that one, since it is the newest acquisition. I have two more coming up BigGrin

Have a good Sunday everybody.
Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 14 December 2014 19:04:47(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Mechanical binding on a simple drive like this one is not a possibility I would seriously consider, as Baggio tells us that the loco runs well when it gets going.
I've seen such problems with BR 86, E 91 (unpowered truck), BR 53 (unpowered truck).
Once running, the locos ran well.
The BR 86 sometimes needed a push to get started.
The E 91 and BR 53 would sometimes run while the unpowered axles didn't turn, sometimes they ran with all axles turning. The lock occurs in a certain position - and with enough momentum the wheels get over that position and continue turning.

The exploded diagram for the #30000 is based on the drawing for the #3000 with minimal changes. You cannot judge the model differences from the drawings.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline baggio  
#9 Posted : 14 December 2014 19:08:41(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
I really think the problem is that NO power gets to the loco. In other words, the problem is not mechanical.
Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 14 December 2014 19:12:32(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
In other words, the problem is not mechanical.
That's what I know now. I didn't know it when I wrote post #3.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline baggio  
#11 Posted : 14 December 2014 19:24:27(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Not a problem. A bit by bit, one zeros in on the problem.

Perhaps you might give me a thought as to what happens if the layout is too large without a booster. Does any of this happen?
Offline tulit  
#12 Posted : 14 December 2014 19:35:29(UTC)
tulit

Canada   
Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 400
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Not a problem. A bit by bit, one zeros in on the problem.

Perhaps you might give me a thought as to what happens if the layout is too large without a booster. Does any of this happen?


No, you would see the overload protection of your controller kicking in if you're at the point of needing a booster.
Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 14 December 2014 19:39:17(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Perhaps you might give me a thought as to what happens if the layout is too large without a booster. Does any of this happen?
I don't think so.

You wrote loco lights are off and loco won't move, but controller does not switch off due to overload.
So I presume the decoder gets no power.

Lose wire in the loco, dirt on the rails, dirty axle bearings, dirty wheel sliders, dirty centre rail pickup, any other contact problem.
When this happens, try to find out what minimalistic movement gets the loco running again. Maybe this will help to narrow down the cause of the problem.
Maybe remove the cover - and when this happens, gently move the wires one by one. Since the lights are off, this could be a problem with the red or brown wire. This shouldn't be a problem with blue, green, yellow, grey, or orange.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
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