Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline Mark5  
#1 Posted : 10 December 2014 23:40:09(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Hello All,

Christmas is a busy time for MMR enthusiasts ...at least in my home!

I've looking at a new item in the 2014/15 catalog
and wondering what might have been a correct prototypical loco to pull these passenger cars in 1955.
http://www.eurorailhobbi...rh_find=42615&sc=All


[BTW So many great posts, thanks to all for the good reading. Although at times hard to keep up!]

Merry Christmas in advance!!
- Mark

Mark5 attached the following image(s):
blue-p-cars_42615.jpg
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
thanks 6 users liked this useful post by Mark5
Offline RayF  
#2 Posted : 11 December 2014 00:17:00(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Hi Mark,

39008 Br01, or 37957 Br03 are both express passenger locos from around the correct period.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 6 users liked this useful post by RayF
Offline Dreadnought  
#3 Posted : 11 December 2014 00:35:15(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 417
Location: Niagara, Ontario
What about V 200, E 18 or E 19?
thanks 5 users liked this useful post by Dreadnought
Offline kimballthurlow  
#4 Posted : 11 December 2014 03:00:46(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,640
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Mark,
In my opinion, Ray and Dreadnought are correct.

By the way, I have the related set 42610, and it is a beauty. It runs well.
That is one prestigious passenger train.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by kimballthurlow
Offline mike c  
#5 Posted : 11 December 2014 06:03:02(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,865
Location: Montreal, QC
I found this site (German) which has a lot of information about the "Blauer Enzian" (Blue Gentian):

http://www.heinrich-hank...sezuege/blauerenzian.htm

The locomotive of this train was a BR 03 from Hamburg, with BR 01 taking over in Hannover and again in Fulda for the run to Munich. A few years later, electric locos of the E 18 type were used between Treuchtlingen and Munich.

The train was withdrawn from regular service in 1957, but the consist remained in reserve use until 1959.
The Blauer Enzian was reinstated as a domestic TEE service in the 1960s.

Regards

Mike C
thanks 6 users liked this useful post by mike c
Offline Mark5  
#6 Posted : 11 December 2014 06:13:48(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Thanks Ray, Dreadnought, Kimball,

I was thinking of the either a BR 01 or a V200. However, it seems there were only five of the V200 prototypes until full production in 1956.
I do have a green E18 that could go with it too, but if obsessed with a colour match, a blue E19 would be a nice addition.

Was wondering if there are any photos of the prototype.
Marklin says the set was used on the Munich-Hamburg line, so it would be nice to see actual photos of what ran during that year [1955]
I have not come across any yet.

I did come across a couple of other interesting videos from the 50s.
https://www.youtube.com/...09B641&v=IH6UdtjeJ18

- Mark

Edited by user 11 December 2014 22:58:36(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Mark5
Offline mike c  
#7 Posted : 11 December 2014 06:29:15(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,865
Location: Montreal, QC
This would be the correct loco for the final stretch of the run to Munich: Maerklin 39680 BR E 18 06

From Hamburg to Hannover, it was a BR 03 and from Hannover to Fulda and Fulda to Munich (or Treuchtlingen) it was BR 01s.
http://www.eisenbahnstif...s/bildergalerie/6135.jpg

If you want photos, do a google image search for DB Blauer Enzian. I found a lot of photo images that were originally posted on Stummi Forum, but have since been taken down from the server.

The train 42615 is for the time period 1954/55, so the steamers and the E 18 are possible. The train was later pulled by prototype V200s and E 10s, but that would be the model 42610.

Regards

Mike C
thanks 7 users liked this useful post by mike c
Offline Alsterstreek  
#8 Posted : 11 December 2014 13:09:25(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
1952 example of Blauer Enzian locos:

A Munich based E 18 pulled the train until Treuchtlingen, here a Würzburg based 01 took over up to Bebra. From Bebra pulled a Bebra based 01.10 until Hannover, and from there a Hamburg-Altona based 03 until Hamburg.

Source: Peter Goette: Leichte F-Züge der Deutschen Bundesbahn. EK Verlag, Freiburg 2011, ISBN 978-3-88255-729-9, pg. 112.

Historic b/w photos:

http://www.drehscheibe-o...oren/read.php?17,7122471
thanks 6 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
Offline Mark5  
#9 Posted : 11 December 2014 23:29:03(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Great leads gentlemen, thank you.
This brings me to another very important question... finding historical maps [1955 etc] that show which lines were under tension/wire and those that were not. (?)
One of all German lines would be fantastic, but I guess I'm dreaming.

The brilliant photo that Mike C posted with the BR 03 obviously has no wire on those sections. The only published info I found so far, mentioned that around the Munich Hauptbahnhof areas were under wire, plus the photos Alsterstreek linked show some excellent photos of E-loks with the Blauer Enzian. But apparently not all lines had wire available for a continuous connection to Hamburg (?).

One would guess that busy mainlines such as Munich-Hamburg would have had lines for E-loks in '55 but from what Mike indicates [and the photo] seems not all.

My dream would be to spend time in the DB museum archives; improving my German would be required.
Funny how easy it is to spend hours looking up images and videos online... getting the specific results is another thing.

- Mark
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Mark5
Offline Alsterstreek  
#10 Posted : 11 December 2014 23:50:59(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
Only in 1965 the catenary reached Hamburg (and it took another three decades before extending the network further into Schleswig-Holstein). Here is a chronology of the lines put under wire in Western Germany. Even for non-German speakers the tables are self-explanatory:

http://de.wikipedia.org/...der_Deutschen_Bundesbahn

And here are the desired maps (1949-1960):

http://www.rheinmodellba...karten-1949-bis-1960.php

:-)

Please note that the lines in Hamburg at that time were urban commuter trains.
thanks 5 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
Offline ozzman  
#11 Posted : 12 December 2014 00:07:50(UTC)
ozzman

Australia   
Joined: 23/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,828
Location: Sydney, Australia
"Only in 1965 the catenary reached Hamburg (and it took another three decades before extending the network further into Schleswig-Holstein)". The wire didn't reach Lubeck until late 2007 or 2008 - I was there in mid 2007 and it was being installed then.

Is the DB still planning to install more catenary?

Many thanks for the photos and maps.
Gary
Z Scale
"Never let the prototype get in the way of a good layout"
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by ozzman
Offline Mark5  
#12 Posted : 12 December 2014 00:31:34(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Great MapsWoot ... Thanks you so much for that Christmas present!
Nothing on East German side of things, prior to 1989? ...
- Mark

Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
Only in 1965 the catenary reached Hamburg (and it took another three decades before extending the network further into Schleswig-Holstein). Here is a chronology of the lines put under wire in Western Germany. Even for non-German speakers the tables are self-explanatory:

http://de.wikipedia.org/...der_Deutschen_Bundesbahn

And here are the desired maps (1949-1960):

http://www.rheinmodellba...karten-1949-bis-1960.php

:-)

Please note that the lines in Hamburg at that time were urban commuter trains.


DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Mark5
Offline Alsterstreek  
#13 Posted : 12 December 2014 00:42:36(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
So demanding...

;-)

Here is the chronology of the GDR (as before, tables are self-explanatory):

http://www.elektrische-b...ichsbahn/strecken_dr.htm
http://de.wikipedia.org/...hsbahn_im_Gebiet_der_DDR
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
Offline Mark5  
#14 Posted : 12 December 2014 05:52:57(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Ak,
Thanks once again.
For an information junkie like me, this is a gift, really.
As for the German, google translator is my friend.
- Mark

DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Mark5
Offline NewMB  
#15 Posted : 12 December 2014 10:09:32(UTC)
NewMB

Germany   
Joined: 26/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 668
Location: Erftstadt
Originally Posted by: ozzman Go to Quoted Post
"Only in 1965 the catenary reached Hamburg (and it took another three decades before extending the network further into Schleswig-Holstein)". The wire didn't reach Lubeck until late 2007 or 2008 - I was there in mid 2007 and it was being installed then.

Is the DB still planning to install more catenary?

Many thanks for the photos and maps.


For a few years now it has been done all the way upto Puttgarten where the trains cross the sea and then into Denmark and Copenhagen. ICE runs this route ex Hamburg a few times per day. A new bridge linking Germany and Denmark is about to start being built (getting rid of the boats - that are very nice btw and take 45 min across).



thanks 3 users liked this useful post by NewMB
Offline Alsterstreek  
#16 Posted : 12 December 2014 11:12:39(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
Originally Posted by: NewMB Go to Quoted Post


For a few years now it has been done all the way upto Puttgarten where the trains cross the sea and then into Denmark and Copenhagen. ICE runs this route ex Hamburg a few times per day. A new bridge linking Germany and Denmark is about to start being built (getting rid of the boats - that are very nice btw and take 45 min across).





Objection your Honor:

The "Vogelfluglinie" is not under wire between Luebeck-Hauptbahnhof and the Puttgarden ferry terminal on the island of Fehmarn. The catenary still ends in the Luebeck-Travemuende terminus. And the "Vogelfluglinie" "splits" even before from the catenary in Luebeck-Hauptbahnhof. Consequently, the ICE trains are diesel powered: The Class 605, commonly known as the ICE TD.

The future Fehmarn Belt Fixed Link will be an immersed tunnel (in earlier design iterations, a bridge) connecting the German island of Fehmarn with the Danish island of Lolland. Fehmarn is already connected by bridge with the German mainland, and Lolland is already connected by a tunnel and bridges with Zealand over the island Falster.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
Offline kimballthurlow  
#17 Posted : 12 December 2014 13:04:26(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,640
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Having started with the Blue Enzian train, this is all terribly off-topic.

Here is the link to the new Denmark - German Fehmarn tunnel link in the planning stages.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XUiMncXp7A

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by kimballthurlow
Offline Alsterstreek  
#18 Posted : 12 December 2014 13:27:33(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Having started with the Blue Enzian train, this is all terribly off-topic.


True, but with the topic owner at the helm.

:-)

Offline Alsterstreek  
#19 Posted : 12 December 2014 13:32:03(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
Maybe we should open a new topic on catenary?

Originally Posted by: ozzman Go to Quoted Post

Is the DB still planning to install more catenary?




Yes, plenty:

Larger electrification projects in the planning phase or under construction until 2021

2014: Dachau–Altomünster (29.9 km). to be integrated into the Munich S-Bahn network
2015: new main line Erfurt–Leipzig/Halle (100.7 km)
2016:
- Węgliniec–Roßlau line between Knappenrode and the Ger.am-Polish bordernear Horka (54.4 km)
- Wesel–Bocholt (20.4 km)
2017
- High speed corridor Nürnberg–Erfurt to extend Leipzig/Halle-Erfurt line (the latter due to be opened in 2015)
- Construction of new main line under wire between Ebensfeld and Erfurt (106.8 km)
- Existing line Friedrichsdorf–Brandoberndorf between Friedrichsdorf and Usingen to obtain catenary (S-Bahn Rhein-Main to be extended to Usingen lateron)
2018:
- Connection Ulm-Friedrichshafen-Lindau (124.9 km)
- Breisgau-S-Bahn network to be electrified: Bad Krozingen–Münstertal already done in 2013; Kaiserstuhlbahn (10.8 km). Elztalbahn (19.3 km) and Freiburg–Breisach (22.5 km) to follow.
- (probably delayed) Oldenburg–Wilhelmshaven (52.4 km ) in the framework of the "JadeWeserPorts
2020
- 103.4 km in total on various stretches to be upgraded to ease train traffic between München and Zürich
- Passow - German-Polish border (Berlin–Szczecin connection)
2021
- Fehmarn Belt Fixed Link (immersed tunnel) between Germany and Denmark to be operational. Until then Lübeck–Puttgarden (83.9 km) to be under catenary, too.
- 57 km of new lines In the context of the new Stuttgart central station (maybe delayed to 2022)
- New line Wendlingen–Ulm (58 km)

Projects with unknown timelines - requested in 2015 federal plan:
Baden-Württemberg
o Radolfzell–Mengen (between Radolfzell and Stahringen)
o Bodenseegürtelbahn ("Lake Constance Belt Line") between Stahringen and Friedrichshafen
o 74.9 km of Hochrheinbahn between Basel Bad Bf. and Erzingen (Baden). of which 2.5 km on Swiss and 72.4 km on German territoty.
o Crailsheim–Heilbronn (between Schwäbisch Hall-Hessental and Öhringen-Cappel)
o Tübingen–Sigmaringen
o Herbertingen–Aulendorf
o Aulendorf–Leutkirch (between Aulendorf and Kißlegg)
o Tübingen–Horb
o Rottweil–Villingen
o Donautalbahn (Baden-Württemberg)
o Brenzbahn
o Steinbourg–Rastatt (between Rœschwoog and Rastatt)
Bavaria
o Regensburg–Oberkotzau (173.6 km)
o Bamberg–Hof (5.6 km between und Oberkotzau und Hof Hbf)
o Nürnberg–Schwandorf (52.3 km between Hartmannshof und Irrenlohe)
o Nürnberg–Cheb (between Nürnberg Hbf und Schirnding)
o Schwandorf–Furth im Wald (67.2 km)
o Schnabelwaid–Bayreuth
o Bayreuth–Neuenmarkt-Wirsberg
o München–Mühldorf (53.7 km between Markt Schwaben und Mühldorf)
o Mühldorf–Freilassing
o Mühldorf–Burghausen (between Tüßling und Burghausen)
o Augsburg–Buchloe (39.9 km)
o Neu-Ulm–Kempten (85.0 km)
o Allgäubahn (Bayern) (between Buchloe and Hergatz)
o Immenstadt–Oberstdorf (20.7 km)
o Aschaffenburg port connection
Thuringia
o Gotha–Leinefelde (67.1 km)
o Weimar–Gera (68.0 km)
Other:
• Leipzig–Geithain (44 km) and Geithain–Chemnitz (36.7 km) - timeline unknown
• Hamburg-Altona–Kaltenkirchen–Neumünster (AKN Eisenbahn)

Source: http://de.wikipedia.org/...in_Deutschland_seit_1994
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
Offline Alsterstreek  
#20 Posted : 12 December 2014 14:13:58(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
Now back to the Blauer Enzian pulled by a V200 in Treuchtlingen.

Edited by user 14 December 2014 03:08:48(UTC)  | Reason: Incorrect reference to Henschel-Wegmann train removed.

Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
treuchtlingen.jpg
thanks 7 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
Offline Alsterstreek  
#21 Posted : 12 December 2014 14:22:32(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
A little bit of cheating - V 200 pulling special historic trailer car
1) Koblenz, Germany
2) Ede-Wageningen, Netherlands

Edited by user 14 December 2014 03:07:32(UTC)  | Reason: Incorrect reference to Henschel-Wegmann train removed.

Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
be sz.jpg
NL.jpg
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
Offline Alsterstreek  
#22 Posted : 12 December 2014 14:38:41(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
The below table gives various locos which have pulled the Henschel-Wegmann train as Blauer Enzian - see areas marked in yellow.

Source:
http://www.heinrich-hank...sezuege/blauerenzian.htm
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
table.png
thanks 6 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
Offline Mark5  
#23 Posted : 13 December 2014 06:16:43(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada

Thanks for all the great feedback AK, NewMB and Kimball,

I am pleased to see that this topic about which locos would pull the Blauer Enzian running from Hamburg to Munich in 1955 includes the state of the catenary it may or may not have used. More complicated but far more interesting to think about the question as to how far it might have been pulled by either electric, diesel or steam. Personally I am thrilled to learn more and see the broader questions involving the world around specific train lines. Seems to me that MMR and its referencing of IRL prototypes, can lead in many directions and we would miss out on the richness of our passion, if we limited it to model numbers, prices and their running abilities; as important as that is for each MMR enthusiast to make his system work.

That said, it seems the image of the Marklin model has a tapered roof on the rounded end cars, whereas the the image of the prototype does not appear to have such a roof.
Do you think there many have multiple versions of the Bauer Enzian?

- Mark
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by Mark5
Offline kimballthurlow  
#24 Posted : 13 December 2014 09:11:38(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,640
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi
E18 30 in 1955 was pulling the tapered roof, round end set.
https://abload.de/img/e1830mitf56augsburg-h82kuf.jpg

Acknowledgement back in the topic by Alsterstreek.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
thanks 9 users liked this useful post by kimballthurlow
Offline Alsterstreek  
#25 Posted : 13 December 2014 13:13:24(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post

That said, it seems the image of the Marklin model has a tapered roof on the rounded end cars, whereas the the image of the prototype does not appear to have such a roof.
Do you think there many have multiple versions of the Bauer Enzian?


So now we move from locos to the train itself. Yes, there were multiple versions of the Blauer Enzian, albeit only a single version of the Henschel-Wegmann train. The lower part of the table in my above post #22 gives an overview about the generations of rolling stock used (= eingesetztes Wagenmaterial). 1954-1959 was the timeframe of the Henschel-Wegmann train plus the "Gegenzug" (= train in the other direction). The Gegenzug consisted of two saloon cars, two unconverted F-Zug dining cars and a trailer car similar to those of the Henschel-Wegmann train. Thus, the Henschel-Wegmann train had two "historic" trailer cars, while the Gegenzug had only (a newly built) one. All five original coaches of the Henschel-Wegmann train were scrapped in 1962. The surviving trailer car with its observation compartment, which is sometimes incorrectly assumed to be an original Henschel-Wegmann trailer car, comes from the Gegenzug.

An interesting footnote regarding a particular loco pulling the Blauer Enzian on an experimental basis in 1953, i.e. before the Henschel-Wegmann train was used: The 1952 US-built Electro-Motive Division (EMD) MRS-1 diesel loco unit 1818 pulled during as a test the passenger trains D 403/D 404 and F 55/F 56 ("Blauer Enzian") between Munich and Hamburg-Altona. After stints in Nevada and Alaska unit 1818 survived (in 2000 it was supposed to be preserved). I attach a photo of unit 1818 in front of D 404 near Laufach at the Spessart Ramp .

Source: http://www.berail.be/usa/emd1818.html
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
1818ge2.jpg
thanks 7 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
Offline Mark5  
#26 Posted : 14 December 2014 01:01:29(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
More information = more questions:

Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
The surviving trailer car with its observation compartment, which is sometimes incorrectly assumed to be an original Henschel-Wegmann trailer car, comes from the Gegenzug.


1.) So Ak, do you mean a wikipedia edit is required for this:
https://en.wikipedia.org...nschel-Wegmann-Zug_3.jpg
...as it is actually a F-zug or a Saloon car and not a Wegmann?
What kind of car is it then? I did notice that in the historical/period photo,
http://trains-worldexpresses.com/600/618-08m.JPG
... there are only 3 windows on the end, whereas the wikipedia photo shows five windows. Could that have been an alteration to the car at some point, or is it the F-zug car?

2.) (This could certainly be a new post --> ) I am very curious about your photo of the 1818. Do you know of sources that show the amount of American or British(?) loco power, or rolling stock brought over to Germany during the post-war occupation? Lets start a new thread on this if you think there is enough info worth making one for.

- Mark

Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post

That said, it seems the image of the Marklin model has a tapered roof on the rounded end cars, whereas the the image of the prototype does not appear to have such a roof.
Do you think there many have multiple versions of the Bauer Enzian?


So now we move from locos to the train itself. Yes, there were multiple versions of the Blauer Enzian, albeit only a single version of the Henschel-Wegmann train. The lower part of the table in my above post #22 gives an overview about the generations of rolling stock used (= eingesetztes Wagenmaterial). 1954-1959 was the timeframe of the Henschel-Wegmann train plus the "Gegenzug" (= train in the other direction). The Gegenzug consisted of two saloon cars, two unconverted F-Zug dining cars and a trailer car similar to those of the Henschel-Wegmann train. Thus, the Henschel-Wegmann train had two "historic" trailer cars, while the Gegenzug had only (a newly built) one. All five original coaches of the Henschel-Wegmann train were scrapped in 1962. The surviving trailer car with its observation compartment, which is sometimes incorrectly assumed to be an original Henschel-Wegmann trailer car, comes from the Gegenzug.

An interesting footnote regarding a particular loco pulling the Blauer Enzian on an experimental basis in 1953, i.e. before the Henschel-Wegmann train was used: The 1952 US-built Electro-Motive Division (EMD) MRS-1 diesel loco unit 1818 pulled during as a test the passenger trains D 403/D 404 and F 55/F 56 ("Blauer Enzian") between Munich and Hamburg-Altona. After stints in Nevada and Alaska unit 1818 survived (in 2000 it was supposed to be preserved). I attach a photo of unit 1818 in front of D 404 near Laufach at the Spessart Ramp .

Source: http://www.berail.be/usa/emd1818.html


DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Mark5
Offline Alsterstreek  
#27 Posted : 14 December 2014 02:56:01(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post

do you mean a wikipedia edit is required for this:
https://en.wikipedia.org...nschel-Wegmann-Zug_3.jpg


The German description in the small print below the Wikipedia photo of the surviving Kanzelwagen reads: "Henschel-Wegmann-**Gegenzug**, Endwagen". The relevant photo description in the German Wikipedia article clearly refers to the **Gegenzug**. Thus, it is definitely not the Henschel-Wegmann depicted, but the Gegenzug trailer car.

Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post

I did notice that in the historical/period photo,
http://trains-worldexpresses.com/600/618-08m.JPG
... there are only 3 windows on the end, whereas the wikipedia photo shows five windows. Could that have been an alteration to the car at some point, or is it the F-zug car?



No alteration carried out:
- Henschel-Wegmann trailer car = 3 windows (see also attached 1935 photo)
- Gegenzug trailer car = 5 windows
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
hwo.png
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
Offline Mark5  
#28 Posted : 14 December 2014 05:31:57(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Wikipedia now edited.
Hope it doesn't start any edit wars.
-Mark

PS. Shall we start a new thread on IRL catenary now?


Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post

do you mean a wikipedia edit is required for this:
https://en.wikipedia.org...nschel-Wegmann-Zug_3.jpg


The German description in the small print below the Wikipedia photo of the surviving Kanzelwagen reads: "Henschel-Wegmann-**Gegenzug**, Endwagen". The relevant photo description in the German Wikipedia article clearly refers to the **Gegenzug**. Thus, it is definitely not the Henschel-Wegmann depicted, but the Gegenzug trailer car.

Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post

I did notice that in the historical/period photo,
http://trains-worldexpresses.com/600/618-08m.JPG
... there are only 3 windows on the end, whereas the wikipedia photo shows five windows. Could that have been an alteration to the car at some point, or is it the F-zug car?



No alteration carried out:
- Henschel-Wegmann trailer car = 3 windows (see also attached 1935 photo)
- Gegenzug trailer car = 5 windows


DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Mark5
Offline kimballthurlow  
#29 Posted : 14 December 2014 10:22:20(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,640
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Hi,
My Marklin 42610 set has the 3 window trailer car at both ends.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by kimballthurlow
Offline Mark5  
#30 Posted : 15 December 2014 05:57:11(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Hi Kimball,
Some nice images of the 42610 here:
http://www.marklinfan.net/blauerenzian.htm

What do you think the essential differnece is in the livery between the 42610 and the new 42615?
Seems from the image in the catalog that it is the DB logo.
Did your set come with an indication of the year of the prototype it models?

- Mark

Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post

Hi,
My Marklin 42610 set has the 3 window trailer car at both ends.

regards
Kimball


DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
Offline kimballthurlow  
#31 Posted : 15 December 2014 07:22:01(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,640
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Mark,
Here are relevant excerpts from the printed material in the 42610 box.

".....The "Blaue Enzian" was an exception among the "F" trains due to its cars, because from December of 1953 on it was upgraded through the use of the car set for the former Henschel-Wegmann train. The Henschel-Wegmann train ran between Berlin and Dresden before World War II starting with the summer schedule of 1936. .... . In 1946, this set of cars was standing totally plundered and no longer usable in Hamburg- Langenfelde. In 1952, the DB had it brought back to the builder, Wegmann, in Cassel, where the five cars were completely overhauled, updated, and painted in the blue of the "F" trains. The design of the cars remained largely unchanged. The trucks however were equipped with a fourth spring and the basic plan as well as the interior features was adapted to the new requirements of the "F" train service. The train offered an elegant view in its steel blue and silver paint scheme with black skirting. After the DB had presented this rebuilt train to the public at the German Transportation Exhibition in Munich from June to November of 1953, it was in service for 5 years starting in December of 1953 as long distance train F 55/56 "Blauer Enzian" between Hamburg and Munich with intermediate stops in Hannover, Göttingen, Fulda, Würzburg, Treuchtlingen, and Augsburg. Starting at the end of 1956 / beginning of 1957 the steam motive power in use until then north of Würzburg gave way to diesel power with the new class V 200.0. South of Würzburg older class E 17 and E 18 electric locomotives were used until the new class E 10 electrics entered service. In 1959, the German Federal Railroad took the Henschel-Wegmann train out of service and stored it at the maintenance facility in Neuaubing. It was scrapped there in 1962 after it was finally retired."

There is no mention of the "return" train, so Marklin have modelled the true original.

The 42615 is as the train looked in 1954, before the DB keks (logo) was used.
The 42610 is as the train looked in 1958 at the end of its service life.
Marklin first modelled this train as it looked in 1936, but I don't know the catalogue number.
For 42610/5 they have remodelled small detail in the roof area.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
thanks 5 users liked this useful post by kimballthurlow
Offline Mark5  
#32 Posted : 15 December 2014 21:02:11(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Thank you, Kimball.
What you have stated is a very helpful synopsis to the whole thread.

Now I am curious to see the Marklin 1936 model and photos of the prototype.

Amazing to see how some rolling stock has such incredible history...
...always a bit of nostalgia when things get scrapped.

Mark

[BTW Quite enjoyed looking at your layout posts.]

Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Hi Mark,
Here are relevant excerpts from the printed material in the 42610 box.

".....The "Blauer Enzian" [....]....

There is no mention of the "return" train, so Marklin have modelled the true original.

The 42615 is as the train looked in 1954, before the DB keks (logo) was used.
The 42610 is as the train looked in 1958 at the end of its service life.
Marklin first modelled this train as it looked in 1936, but I don't know the catalogue number.
For 42610/5 they have remodelled small detail in the roof area.

regards
Kimball


DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Mark5
Offline kimballthurlow  
#33 Posted : 16 December 2014 00:22:06(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,640
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Mark and all,

I have used this site extensively to get some understanding of the German passenger trains.
I have given a link to the home page, and you can follow from there.

History of German long-distance train traffic from 1920.

http://www.dbtrains.com/en

I am glad you enjoyed pictures of my layout. If you click on the www link at the bottom of this post, I have a website.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by kimballthurlow
Offline jvuye  
#34 Posted : 16 December 2014 15:29:15(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Thanks a lot Kimball and AK , this is a very good summary. (Good catch AK with the 5 vs 3 windshields to distinguish the original Kanzelwagen from the "Gegenzug")

Just a couple of additional details:
- the original 1936 HW Zug had 4 cars, the refurbished one also had a 5th car added
- the HW original had a Klimaanlage (A/C) , the Gegenzug didn't, which induced some displeasure with users and it earlier demise. (yes, people already cared about that type of luxury, in the 1950's)
I have a (older) book called "Von Fernschnellzug bis Intercity" describing premium passenger trains in Germany from 1927 to the late 1980's.
Excellent documentation, although 99% of the pics are B/W
But it shows many shots of the HW Zug, including in its "Blauer Enzian" post-war (re-)incarnation.
Loks are BR 01 for steam segments with V200s picking up the job later, and E18 , E19 and even E10 under the wire.
On my layout , my Ma E18 and E10 are eagerly awaiting the arrival of the new set.BigGrin
And my old (but nice!) blue Rivarossi E19 will definitely fit best.
Cheers
Jacques
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by jvuye
Offline Alsterstreek  
#35 Posted : 16 December 2014 16:13:01(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post

Now I am curious to see the Marklin 1936 model and photos of the prototype.


Above post # 27 contains a 1936 prototype photo taken at the factory.

:-)
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
Offline Alsterstreek  
#36 Posted : 16 December 2014 16:17:44(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post

- the original 1936 HW Zug had 4 cars, the refurbished one also had a 5th car


There was a fifth Henschel-Wegmann train coach built around 1940, which was probably no longer used in scheduled service. In 1946, it was based in Hamburg-Langenfelde together with the other four coaches. When re-activated after WW II, all five Henschel-Wegmann coaches were combined.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
Offline Mark5  
#37 Posted : 16 December 2014 18:45:47(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Just to answer my own question previously.
The model number for the Era II HW cars is the set with the BR 61 003: Marklin 26610
Mark5 attached the following image(s):
Modellbahn-Maerklin-Henschel-Wegmann-Zug-MKN_BR61_003_6de043afbb.jpg
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Mark5
Users browsing this topic
UnknownOceanSpiders 0.0
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 1.213 seconds.