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Offline charles Sharpe  
#1 Posted : 05 November 2014 22:23:34(UTC)
charles Sharpe


Joined: 21/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,432
Location: NORFOLK UK
Please can you tell me were the cable from the socket marked T goes. I am using the Viessmann 5217. I had labeled the cables that use the green plugs put forgot to mark the T one.

Charles.
CHARLES SHARPE
Offline Danlake  
#2 Posted : 06 November 2014 06:47:51(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,571
Hi Charles

The T is for ground connection.

Brgds Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
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Offline charles Sharpe  
#3 Posted : 06 November 2014 07:12:07(UTC)
charles Sharpe


Joined: 21/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,432
Location: NORFOLK UK
Ok but were do I connect it to. Is it to the brown on the transformer that is used for all the assories on the layout i.e. none cs power.

Charles.
CHARLES SHARPE
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#4 Posted : 06 November 2014 10:44:57(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
If you are running a common ground then the T connection should be to that. Otherwise it should go to the brown output from your CS2.
Offline charles Sharpe  
#5 Posted : 06 November 2014 13:41:50(UTC)
charles Sharpe


Joined: 21/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,432
Location: NORFOLK UK
Sorry to be so thick but I don't know what you mean common ground.

Charles
CHARLES SHARPE
Offline PMPeter  
#6 Posted : 06 November 2014 17:54:32(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
Charles,

(Corrected wording) If you have more than one power source for your layout, common practice is to tie all the ground connections (brown) from each power source together, thus called "common ground".

This could occur if you have for example separate power supplies for your lighting, signals, accessories, etc. in addition to the power supplied through your controller. If you don't have these tied together then the T connection needs to go to the ground connection of your controller.

Cheers
Peter

Edited by user 07 November 2014 04:30:12(UTC)  | Reason: Corrected wording

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Offline charles Sharpe  
#7 Posted : 06 November 2014 18:43:44(UTC)
charles Sharpe


Joined: 21/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,432
Location: NORFOLK UK
Hello Peter.

I have two trans one for the CS and one for the street lights and the turnout lanterns. So I will take a cable from the t socket to the brown on the CS2.

Charles.
CHARLES SHARPE
Offline PMPeter  
#8 Posted : 06 November 2014 18:54:21(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
Correct. If you do not have the grounds of those two power supplies connected together then you should connect the T to the brown connection of the CS.

Peter
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Offline charles Sharpe  
#9 Posted : 06 November 2014 19:18:34(UTC)
charles Sharpe


Joined: 21/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,432
Location: NORFOLK UK
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
Correct. If you do not have the grounds of those two power supplies connected together then you should connect the T to the brown connection of the CS.

Peter


Thankyou.

Charles.
CHARLES SHARPE
Offline Webmaster  
#10 Posted : 06 November 2014 19:43:46(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
You could also say that T is "Track ground" (ie CS brown) if you use the normal way of feedback indication with contact tracks and such.
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#11 Posted : 06 November 2014 20:22:38(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

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Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
If you have more than one power supply for your layout, common practice is to tie all the ground connections (brown) from each power supply together, thus called "common ground". This could occur if you have for example separate power supplies for your lighting, signals, accessories, etc. in addition to your power supply to your controller. If you don't have these tied together then the T connection needs to go to the ground connection for your controller.


This advice is generally correct, however there is a special case when using the latest generation of controllers - CS1 / Ecos / CS2 and maybe others.

DO NOT connect the brown output from any transformer / power supply feeding these controllers to the brown output of any other devices. Doing so may well destroy your controller. Always connect the brown output from the controller itself to the brown of other devices.

Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
.......if you have for example separate power supplies for your lighting, signals, accessories, etc. in addition to your power supply to your controller.


Definitely DO NOT do this as per the comment above.
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Offline Webmaster  
#12 Posted : 06 November 2014 21:02:19(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
As Bigdaddynz pointed out - transformers are one thing and various layout track power supply devices is another thing nowadays.

In the old analog way of doing it and up to 6021/Intellibox digital control, the transformers provided the "common brown" voltage reference at the same level as the controllers.

However, starting with CS1/Ecos, the common ground reference is the "brown track connection" of the controller output - NOT the feeder transformer brown output.
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline charles Sharpe  
#13 Posted : 06 November 2014 22:02:06(UTC)
charles Sharpe


Joined: 21/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,432
Location: NORFOLK UK
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
As Bigdaddynz pointed out - transformers are one thing and various layout track power supply devices is another thing nowadays.

In the old analog way of doing it and up to 6021/Intellibox digital control, the transformers provided the "common brown" voltage reference at the same level as the controllers.

However, starting with CS1/Ecos, the common ground reference is the "brown track connection" of the controller output - NOT the feeder transformer brown output.


So It is still ok to take the wire from the T socket on the S88 to the brown on the CS 2

Charles.
CHARLES SHARPE
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#14 Posted : 06 November 2014 22:56:19(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
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Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: charles Sharpe Go to Quoted Post
So It is still ok to take the wire from the T socket on the S88 to the brown on the CS 2


Yes!
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Offline PMPeter  
#15 Posted : 06 November 2014 22:58:57(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
I believe some further clarification is required here between transformers and modern day switched mode power supplies. In a previous thread I raised the question about running catenary on analog A/C and running the main track on digital through a CS. I was advised in this forum to tie the grounds together in this case, even though one is A/C. So based on Bigdaddynz's response this should never be done.

So now I am confused since I have all the grounds from my lighting transformer power supplies and the ground from the CS2 (fed by a switched mode power supply) tied together as per previous discussions. Do I have a disaster looming?

Peter
Offline PMPeter  
#16 Posted : 06 November 2014 23:08:37(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
I don't want to raise the whole debate about live catenary again, but if the analog catenary transformer cannot have its brown ground connected to the track ground, what does it connect to?

Peter
Offline H0  
#17 Posted : 06 November 2014 23:14:02(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Peter,
Never make a connection between a transformer that feeds a digital controller and the output of such a digital controller.
Accessory transformers or transformers used for analogue operation are a different matter: they can have common ground with the output side of digital controllers without doing harm.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline PMPeter  
#18 Posted : 06 November 2014 23:31:53(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
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Location: Port Moody, BC
I think we are all saying the same thing just describing it differently. I would never consider tying the incoming ground of the power supply feeding the CS2 to the outgoing track ground. I am only referring to the CS2 output ground tied to the analog transformer output ground feeding my catenary and the lighting transformer output grounds.

I may have to draw a sketch when I get home to make sure we are all saying the same.

Peter
Offline H0  
#19 Posted : 06 November 2014 23:40:37(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
I would never consider tying the incoming ground of the power supply feeding the CS2 to the outgoing track ground.
This was possible with 6021 and Delta Control - and therefore it is important to point out this can't be done with modern equipment.
But that's off topic here, so maybe put your sketch into a different thread.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline clapcott  
#20 Posted : 07 November 2014 00:25:14(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
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Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Hello Charles,

A number of assumptions have been made in the replies to your question. While valid in their own context they may not be in yours and are certainly not complete (they may not have to be for any one scenario). My following comments relate to the Marklin S88 which I believe the Viessman device emulates - but I would double check with the devices documentation.

The purpose of the "upside down T" is to provide a return circuit for your sensors.

In its most fundamental form (see 4th scenario in the image below) the reed switch sensor has one wire to this "common T" and the other to a sensor input. Thus, when the switch activates, it completes the circuit.

The assumptions being made are that you are using one of the 3 other scenarios in the diagram. As shown these solutions all take a shortcut for the return circuit of the sensor by using the (Marklin 3 rail) track rail. This Rail should be connected to the Brown or "0" to a controller or booster.

The issue is that we must somehow get the sensor return (via the rail, via the Brown "0" wire connector) back to the "Upside down T" of the feedback decoder.

Note: Please be mindful that if the sensors are connected to a section of track that is powered by a booster, then it is the Brown "0" from that same booster that should be used.
Another assumption being made is that if you have booster then you would have its Brown "0", commoned with the Brown "0" of your Controller (CS2). This may not be the case.

(Irreverent in your case - but for historic perspective) Has been the reference to the 602x/6050. These Marklin controllers were designed with an internal link between the Brown "0" output and the flat grey cable that connects to the feedback unit. Therefore there is no need for a separate connecting wire to complete the circuit

For the CS1 on-wards , including the CS2, the feedback bus and the track Brown are isolated from each other.
Therefore a jumper wire is required to complete this circuit.

As a closing note please be aware that Marklin CS's (and documentation) have at times incorrectly labelled/identified the Brown "0".
The wire we are talking about for the 3 top scenarios in the diagram, is the one that goes to the track rail and thereby completing the circuit to your sensors.

UserPostedImage

Peter
Offline PMPeter  
#21 Posted : 07 November 2014 04:43:59(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC

Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
.......if you have for example separate power supplies for your lighting, signals, accessories, etc. in addition to your power supply to your controller.


Definitely DO NOT do this as per the comment above.


You are absolutely correct. It should have stated "in addition to power supplied through your controller". Since the 60065 switched mode power supply connected to the CS2 has no terminals I always (incorrectly) consider the CS2 as the controller/power supply.

It wasn't until I read HO's comments that I realized how wrong my reply could be interpreted. I have gone back and corrected the wording to both of my previous replies. Unfortunately we tend to use transformers, power supplies, and power sources interchangeably when they could mean something totally different depending on what is discussed.

Sorry for any confusion.

Peter
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