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Offline 20-VOLT-AC  
#1 Posted : 01 November 2014 14:03:03(UTC)
20-VOLT-AC

United Kingdom   
Joined: 27/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 250
Location: united kingdom
Hello.

I have always wondered why Marklin changed from the pre-war gauge of 00 to the scale H0 gauge .

What was the reason for this change and which year did this change happen ?

Neil.
1950's Marklin Fan .
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Offline Mark_1602  
#2 Posted : 01 November 2014 17:07:25(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Hi Neil,

I think I can give you a partial answer taken from a book about Märklin that I received yesterday. It says that the 00 scale (1:76), which originated in the UK, was abandoned by Märklin in 1950. From that moment, Märklin used the term H0 (1:87), though some 00 models remained in production for some time, the best-known example being the old Crocodile. I always wondered why the CCS 800 (3015) was longer than its successors, so I suppose that's because it was built for 1:76.

According to the book I have, the 00 scale was abandoned because H0 was more realistic in relation to the size of the rails, i.e. the gauge of 16.5 mm.

Sorry I can't give you any more details as I don't know that much about MRR in the 1950s. Here's the book reference:

Märklin: Miroir de son temps by Eric de Ville and Alain van den Abeele, published in Belgium around 2002 (ISBN 9782884680158 for the French edition)

There were also Dutch, German and English editions of this rare book; the English one was translated by Sheona Dorson-King.

Best regards, Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline Ian555  
#3 Posted : 01 November 2014 18:14:55(UTC)
Ian555

Scotland   
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 20,235
Location: Scotland
Hi Neil,

Although this doesn't answer your question this might be of interest to you, here we have digital Loco's including MFX, running on Märklin OO gauge 1935 track.

Ian.




....
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Offline RayF  
#4 Posted : 01 November 2014 19:00:09(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
H0, 1.87, is the correct scale for the track gauge of 16.5mm. The only reason that 1.76 00 scale was used was because they found it hard to make a motor to fit in the smaller scale in those days.

It was even more of an issue for modelling British trains are they are quite a bit smaller than their european or american counterparts. This is why they persevered with the scale in UK when other countries moved to H0.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline 20-VOLT-AC  
#5 Posted : 01 November 2014 20:34:13(UTC)
20-VOLT-AC

United Kingdom   
Joined: 27/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 250
Location: united kingdom
Originally Posted by: Ian555 Go to Quoted Post
Hi Neil,

Although this doesn't answer your question this might be of interest to you, here we have digital Loco's including MFX, running on Märklin OO gauge 1935 track.

Ian.




....


Hello Ian.

It is good to see that the modern DCC locomotives still run well on vintage Marklin track systems !

1950's Marklin Fan .
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Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 01 November 2014 21:08:37(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Hi!

According to German Wikipedia, Trix introduced 00 gauge in 1935 with a model gauge of 16.0 mm and a scale of 1:90.
Later this evolved to 16.5 mm model gauge and a scale of 1:87 and the name was changed to H0.

They don't write which scale was used by Märklin when they introduced 00 a few months later. Back then, exact scale was not too important - some "models" of six-axle prototype locos only had two axles.

I don't know how it came that the came 00 (or rather OO) survived in the UK, but with a scale of 1:76 (4 mm scale) instead of the 3.5 mm scale used on the continent.
Many old Fleischmann models are 1:82 or 1:85.

And we still see some variation in scale. The Märklin Adler is 1:80, not 1:87, thus providing more room for the motor. NEM specifies this as a special scale for models of tiny prototype locos.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline tototrains  
#7 Posted : 07 November 2014 18:12:56(UTC)
tototrains

United States   
Joined: 09/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 13
Location: Lawrence, Kansas
Greetings,
I agree with the 00 to H0 transformation caused by Märklin being able to produce more realistic 1:87 models.
This leaves me with one question though. I have several 1935 00 catalogs (if you can call it that; it's more like a leaflet). The Dutch, German and Swiss versions all refer to scale 00, except for the US catalog which states H0.
Any thought?
Thanks,
Jan
Jan Brocker
1031 Vermont Street
Lawrence, KS 66044
www.tototrains.com
brocker@sunflower.com
785-766-0467
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Offline RayF  
#8 Posted : 07 November 2014 18:33:16(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I wouldn't place a lot of importance on the labelling of the scales in those days. As Tom said, the exact scale was not important then.

Even today, you still get a lot of model railway accessories marked as HO/OO, as if the scale were the same.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Markus Schild  
#9 Posted : 07 November 2014 19:44:39(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,802
Location: Wurttemberg
Hi,

In the 1950 catalogue Märklin describes the reason for changing to the description from "00" to "H0" with international understandability. But I think this is only half of the truth: The letters "00" were used to mark the doors leading to toilets in these years. In Germany "00" was also a popular brand for a toilet-cleaning detergent. In these years "H0" and "00" were still understood as synonyms.

Regards

Markus
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Offline 20-VOLT-AC  
#10 Posted : 07 November 2014 20:05:49(UTC)
20-VOLT-AC

United Kingdom   
Joined: 27/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 250
Location: united kingdom
Originally Posted by: Markus Schild Go to Quoted Post
Hi,

In the 1950 catalogue Märklin describes the reason for changing to the description from "00" to "H0" with international understandability. But I think this is only half of the truth: The letters "00" were used to mark the doors leading to toilets in these years. In Germany "00" was also a popular brand for a toilet-cleaning detergent. In these years "H0" and "00" were still understood as synonyms.

Regards

Markus


Hello Markus.

That is an interesting point , i did read somewhere that in the 1940's H0 basically meant "HALF - 0" , half 0 - gauge scale.

An accurate international standard scale was needed for manufacturers .

Neil.


1950's Marklin Fan .
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Offline Mark_1602  
#11 Posted : 15 November 2014 07:39:19(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Hi everybody,

The 00 gauge was actually introduced in the 1920s, not in 1935. The first miniature trains running on 16.5 mm gauge rails were designed by Henry Greenly, an engineer who worked for the British Bassett-Lowke toy company. He made the drawings whereas the famous German engineer, Stephan Bing, was in charge of the tooling and production at the Bing Company. The first 'Miniature Table Railway' was a kind of British-German joint venture and was presented in the UK in 1922, according to the book "Märklin: Mirror de son temps". (Wikipedia says 1921!) (*) At first, those trains were mechanical because it was difficult to build small motors that fitted into the engines, but from 1925 Bassett-Lowke's 'Miniature Table Railway' was electric. Interestingly, the rails were a revolutionary design which included the ballast and were modified in 1925, when a 3L system as well as pickup shoes were introduced.

The 'Miniature Table Railway' was primarily sold in the UK, but the German Bing Company also produced different versions for the German, French and US markets! Bing went bust at the beginning of the 1930s, so production ended in 1932. After that, Stephan Bing was free to design model trains for other companies. In 1928, he had bought the German toy company 'Förtner & Haffner' together with a few business partners and started producing metal toys under the Trix brand name in 1931. In 1938, Trix was split up into a German and a British branch for political reasons, and Stephan Bing fled to the UK with his partners.

As everybody knows, Bing presented his Trix Express trains to the public in the spring of 1935, and Märklin introduced the 00 gauge in the autumn of the same year, but the 16.5 mm gauge dates from the 1920s! Scale was only approximate anyway. Nearly all engines and coaches were too short, though Märklin's CCS 800/3015 was longer than its successors, which must have been part of its appeal. Cool

Best regards, Mark

(*) The German book "Märklin: Die Legende Lebt", published in 2009, says that Stephan Bing had developed a gauge 00 table railway (16.5 cm) for the British market in 1923, so I guess that the Wikipedia date is not the correct one.
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline Mark_1602  
#12 Posted : 04 March 2015 08:12:14(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!

According to German Wikipedia, Trix introduced 00 gauge in 1935 with a model gauge of 16.0 mm and a scale of 1:90.
Later this evolved to 16.5 mm model gauge and a scale of 1:87 and the name was changed to H0.



Hi Tom,

You're wrong there. The 16.5 mm gauge 00 was introduced in 1923 by Bassett-Lowke in the UK, not in 1935. Books about the history of model railroading provide more reliable information than Wikipedia. Those trains were produced by the Bing company in Germany, mainly for the British market.

After the Bing company disappeared, Bing and some of his friends founded Trix and reintroduced the 00 gauge in 1935. According to a book I bought recently, 'H0' was substituted for '00' in 1950 because the German MRR magazine 'Miba' had suggested that change. Märklin reacted to that, and another reason why the '00' gauge was the fact that '00' made many people think of a lavatory. (Source: Jörg Hajt, 50 Jahre Märklin H0)
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Online kimballthurlow  
#13 Posted : 04 March 2015 23:06:55(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,640
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Mark,
Your assertions about the origins of 00 models agree with my research on the subject.

Could I speculate that Marklin decided to dump 00 as their marketed scale/gauge because of American influence.
H0 was the well entrenched favourite in the USA after WWII, and the US influence in Germany with occupying servicemen may have been a factor.
Perhaps Marklin saw more future going down the US path, than with the British, where 00 was the defacto standard for table-top railways.
And that fits with what Markus said earlier:
Quote:
In the 1950 catalogue Märklin describes the reason for changing to the description from "00" to "H0" with international understandability.

(We recently saw video on this group showing servicemen visiting the Marklin factory and store).

Off topic now, but I wonder if the common useage of the word loo here (for toilet), stems from our 1800s German immigrants?

regards
Kimball

Edited by user 05 March 2015 04:58:23(UTC)  | Reason: added quote from Markus

HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline SteamNut  
#14 Posted : 05 March 2015 03:29:29(UTC)
SteamNut

United States   
Joined: 11/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 488
Just a side note many people confuse scale with gauge, which is track, As noted before there were no real standards as today. Today we have problems running trains on old track with equipment meeting finer standards that the track was designed for.
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Offline Nigel Packer  
#15 Posted : 05 March 2015 12:12:45(UTC)
Nigel Packer

United Kingdom   
Joined: 11/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 681
Location: Cheshire, UK
Originally Posted by: 20-VOLT-AC Go to Quoted Post

That is an interesting point , i did read somewhere that in the 1940's H0 basically meant "HALF - 0" , half 0 - gauge scale.





Interestingly, the voice-over person (Helge Sidow?) on the Märklin TV videos in English always pronounces H0 as "Half-Oh". (He also has some other rather charming habitual mis-pronunciations!) So "Half-Oh" must be a common German translation into English, and it does betray the origin of this name for the scale.

I don't think I've ever heard a native English-speaker pronounce it this way. We always seems to say "aitch-Oh", although really I suppose it should be "aitch-Zero".

In German, the zero part is always pronounced as "null" meaning zero, rather than as an alphabetic O.


Nigel
Märklin collector since age 5.
H0 Collection from 1935 to today.
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Offline sjlauritsen  
#16 Posted : 06 March 2015 07:41:15(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: Nigel Packer Go to Quoted Post
Interestingly, the voice-over person (Helge Sidow?) on the Märklin TV videos in English always pronounces H0 as "Half-Oh". (He also has some other rather charming habitual mis-pronunciations!) So "Half-Oh" must be a common German translation into English, and it does betray the origin of this name for the scale.

I don't think I've ever heard a native English-speaker pronounce it this way. We always seems to say "aitch-Oh", although really I suppose it should be "aitch-Zero".

In German, the zero part is always pronounced as "null" meaning zero, rather than as an alphabetic O.

Same in Denmark. You say "H Zero" as you would in Germany. Some Germans say "Halb Null", as in the video "Half Zero". Because that is how it originated: The half of zero. If you say HO in Denmark, you will be corrected for sure. Simply because of the origins of the scale, "HO" or "Aitch Oh" is wrong in many peoples opinion. Smile Unless, of course, that by "oh" you mean "zero", which I have heard some English speaking people do. I don't know if this is a common way to say zero or not. Smile That is the beauty of the languages. Smile

Btw. I would love some UK models in my collection, but the slighty different scale makes me hesitate. Unfortunately. Sad There are some pretty cool prototypes in the UK. Hornby also produces a lot of interesting train packs.


Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
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Offline Markus Schild  
#17 Posted : 06 March 2015 07:54:59(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,802
Location: Wurttemberg
In France Hornby named its 16.5 mm railway "HORNBY ACHO" giving the customers the hint how to speak "H0". In French "Acho" is spoken near to "ash - 0" in English.

Regards

Marksu



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Offline RayF  
#18 Posted : 06 March 2015 08:52:30(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
"Oh" is a very common way for native English speakers to pronounce the numeral zero. When you turn age forty people talk about "the big four-oh".

I guess the most famous example of this usage is Mr Bond himself, who is known as "Double Oh Seven" or "Oh-oh Seven", but never "Zero zero seven"

Telephone numbers are almost always spoken as "ohs" and not "zeros" too.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#19 Posted : 06 March 2015 16:47:28(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Off topic now, but I wonder if the common useage of the word loo here (for toilet), stems from our 1800s German immigrants?


Rather of French than German origin, it seems:
http://www.oxforddiction...e-origin-of-the-word-loo
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Offline Mark_1602  
#20 Posted : 11 March 2015 17:45:20(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Hi Mark,
Your assertions about the origins of 00 models agree with my research on the subject.

Could I speculate that Marklin decided to dump 00 as their marketed scale/gauge because of American influence.
H0 was the well entrenched favourite in the USA after WWII, and the US influence in Germany with occupying servicemen may have been a factor.
Perhaps Marklin saw more future going down the US path, than with the British, where 00 was the defacto standard for table-top railways.
And that fits with what Markus said earlier:
Quote:
In the 1950 catalogue Märklin describes the reason for changing to the description from "00" to "H0" with international understandability.

(We recently saw video on this group showing servicemen visiting the Marklin factory and store).

Off topic now, but I wonder if the common useage of the word loo here (for toilet), stems from our 1800s German immigrants?

regards
Kimball


Hi Kimball,

Märklin was definitely dependent on export markets in 1950 because most Germans could not afford model trains yet. When Märklin started producing trains again after WW II, the first customers were the American GIs and the Swiss. The book I have quoted above says that the marketing guys at Märklin thought that '00' might not be good for sales, so they decided to use 'H0' instead, as the leading German MRR magazine 'Miba' had suggested. I've checked some other books about Märklin, but so far I haven't found any further information about the name change.
The origin of the word 'loo' is uncertain, though there might be a number of theories.

Best regards,

Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline steventrain  
#21 Posted : 11 March 2015 20:58:21(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,594
Location: United Kingdom
I think it is 3015/30159/36159 and part from 31859/60 Crocodile is the last OO gauge?
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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Offline Janne75  
#22 Posted : 11 March 2015 22:17:33(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Originally Posted by: steventrain Go to Quoted Post
I think it is 3015/30159/36159 and part from 31859/60 Crocodile is the last OO gauge?


Yes, I totally agree, but to be precise they are 00 scale and not OO gauge. In my opinion also Märklin RET 800 (later 3014 or kit 3914) is 00 scale. It was made from 1954 to 1980. I have one and it looks a little bit too big when comparing to newer SBB Re 4/4 models. There are probably also many more examples made, but only those "big" 00 scale SBB Crocodiles have been done after Millenium.
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
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Offline Mark_1602  
#23 Posted : 12 March 2015 17:37:29(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Hi,

Actually, '00' refers to the gauge of 14.5 mm. Scale was approximate and not very important in the past. All coaches and most wagons were shortened for practical reasons, whereas locomotives tended to be a little bigger than they should have been for a very simple reason: the motors that were available up to WWII were rather big, and Märklin only managed to reduce the width of the LFCM motor and produce the SFCM after the war. From about 1950, the new H0 models came closer to the 1:87 scale; that development coincided with the name change, so in most people's minds, H0 means 1:87 and 00 means 1:76, but even after the year 2000, Märklin still made coaches and a few locomotives (e.g. the old Nohab) that were too short. I guess Märklin coaches will never be 1:87 ... Smile

Best regards,

Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline RayF  
#24 Posted : 13 March 2015 23:55:45(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I don't think that's totally correct. There are definitely two different scales, one called OO and another called HO.

OO is popular in UK and has the scale of 1:76. It is also known as 4mm to the foot scale.

HO has the scale of 1:87 which is almost exactly half O scale (1:43).

The larger scale was mainly used to fit the old bigger motors in the steam locos. In UK locos the boilers are smaller due to lower loading gauges and the decision was taken to continue with OO.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline river6109  
#25 Posted : 14 March 2015 10:27:35(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
I'm scaling down from HO to HOe

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline Mark_1602  
#26 Posted : 14 March 2015 22:10:21(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I don't think that's totally correct. There are definitely two different scales, one called OO and another called HO.

OO is popular in UK and has the scale of 1:76. It is also known as 4mm to the foot scale.

HO has the scale of 1:87 which is almost exactly half O scale (1:43).

The larger scale was mainly used to fit the old bigger motors in the steam locos. In UK locos the boilers are smaller due to lower loading gauges and the decision was taken to continue with OO.


Hi,

Well, nowadays there are two different scales because of the UK, but I was referring to Märklin and Germany in 1950, not to British manufacturers. When Märklin switched from '00' to 'H0', it was basically a name change, not a different scale. Hardly anything that Märklin made at the time was exactly 1:87 or 1:76. Scale was just theoretical back then. The name change was made because the marketing guys approved of the idea suggested by 'Miba', which came more or less at the same time as new models that were closer to 1:87. Obviousl,y the British manufacturers wouldn't have cared for the suggestion of a German magazine in 1950.

Later, in the 1980s, experts on Märklin measured the old models and decided which scale they were, but that was a kind of anachronism. When they were built, the most important thing was that they worked without any problems on the available tracks. I've seen a video in which the man who designed the Crocodile was interviewed when he was over 80. He was asked if there had been any problems with this model, and his reply was that he had had to make many changes to make sure that the locomotive could pass turnovers and curves. The exact scale was not important.

I'm aware of the fact that British trains are not the same size as Continental ones in relation to the rails, so obviously this translates into two different scales now that some model railroaders measure the size of every wheel in millimetres and then complain that it isn't prototypical. This obsession with exact scale and prototypes only started in the 1980s or 90s, so now we have locomotives which look realistic but cause other problems ...

The point I was trying to make is that nowadays many people think that the relatively new concept of exact scale also applies to the old models, but it doesn't. There were only standard gauges, so Bing trains could run on Märklin rails and vice versa.

Best regards,
Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline RayF  
#27 Posted : 14 March 2015 23:00:00(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I don't think that's totally correct. There are definitely two different scales, one called OO and another called HO.

OO is popular in UK and has the scale of 1:76. It is also known as 4mm to the foot scale.

HO has the scale of 1:87 which is almost exactly half O scale (1:43).

The larger scale was mainly used to fit the old bigger motors in the steam locos. In UK locos the boilers are smaller due to lower loading gauges and the decision was taken to continue with OO.


Hi,

Well, nowadays there are two different scales because of the UK, but I was referring to Märklin and Germany in 1950, not to British manufacturers. When Märklin switched from '00' to 'H0', it was basically a name change, not a different scale. Hardly anything that Märklin made at the time was exactly 1:87 or 1:76. Scale was just theoretical back then. The name change was made because the marketing guys approved of the idea suggested by 'Miba', which came more or less at the same time as new models that were closer to 1:87. Obviousl,y the British manufacturers wouldn't have cared for the suggestion of a German magazine in 1950.

Later, in the 1980s, experts on Märklin measured the old models and decided which scale they were, but that was a kind of anachronism. When they were built, the most important thing was that they worked without any problems on the available tracks. I've seen a video in which the man who designed the Crocodile was interviewed when he was over 80. He was asked if there had been any problems with this model, and his reply was that he had had to make many changes to make sure that the locomotive could pass turnovers and curves. The exact scale was not important.

I'm aware of the fact that British trains are not the same size as Continental ones in relation to the rails, so obviously this translates into two different scales now that some model railroaders measure the size of every wheel in millimetres and then complain that it isn't prototypical. This obsession with exact scale and prototypes only started in the 1980s or 90s, so now we have locomotives which look realistic but cause other problems ...

The point I was trying to make is that nowadays many people think that the relatively new concept of exact scale also applies to the old models, but it doesn't. There were only standard gauges, so Bing trains could run on Märklin rails and vice versa.

Best regards,
Mark


Mark, I wouldn't dismiss the old modellers so easily. I have been interested in model trains since my childhood in the sixties, and read a lot of books and magazines dating back to the fifties. The concepts of exact scale was very well understood by then, with Trix, hornby and others having chosen their preferred scales by then. German and other continental manufacturers followed MIBAs suggestion of 1:87, but in Uk the manufacturers opted for the larger scale to make things easier for themselves, accepting the narrow gauge effect that this would give. Certainly by the 1980s scales had been fixed for many years, and even Marklin who were known as being somewhat old fashioned by then had phased out their out of scale locos such as the 3015.

I'm afraid the dates you are giving should be backdated by at least 30 to 40 years.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Mark_1602  
#28 Posted : 15 March 2015 07:27:07(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Certainly by the 1980s scales had been fixed for many years, and even Marklin who were known as being somewhat old fashioned by then had phased out their out of scale locos such as the 3015.

I'm afraid the dates you are giving should be backdated by at least 30 to 40 years.


Hi Ray,

I believe what you write about British manufacturers, but I was talking about Märklin only. In the 1960s, newly designed models such as the Nohab (3066 etc.), the Dutch 3051, the TEE train, or the 3050 were all shorter than they should have been. By now, nearly all of those have been redesigned and are 1:87, but they certainly weren't in the 1960s or 1970s. It's true that those models that were obviously too big were phased out a long time ago, but Märklin has only started taking scale seriously in the last 20-30 years.

Scales were defined a long time ago and Märklin has claimed for many decades that its models are 1:87, but we know that was only a fiction due to the R1 radius; that fiction can actually be backdated to the 1950s, but the reality looks different. In the 1970s and 1980s, Märklin first started making longer coaches, but but even in the year 2014 not all the models in the news catalogue were 1:87. The F7s are still too short, and very few Märklin coaches are 1:87. There's still a mess of different scales in Märklin catalogues now. They do whatever suits them best for each model. I like Märklin, but if I wanted 1:87, I would have chosen another manufacturer.

I'm not dismissing the old models or designers. I'm just saying that in practice there was no consistent scale then, though it existed in theory. The problem is that originally gauge, not scale, was the standard, but under the pressure of MRR magazines, scale became the new norm. Companies like Roco have implemented that, but Märklin still hasn't.

Best regards,
Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Online kimballthurlow  
#29 Posted : 15 March 2015 08:26:24(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,640
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post
....... There's still a mess of different scales in Märklin catalogues now. They do whatever suits them best for each model. I like Märklin, but if I wanted 1:87, I would have chosen another manufacturer.......
Best regards,
Mark


Hi Mark,
Quite right. I choose to purchase whatever suits, regardless of the real scale.

I mix what looks OK. My older Fleischmann rolling stock with die-cast underframes, is apparently 1:82, but does not look totally out of place.
I have no Marklin older than 15 years, so I count myself lucky in some respects
The change by Marklin from 00 to H0, whenever it was, does not effect me.

Out of interest, to what ratio was the 3015 crocodile built?

regards
kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline Janne75  
#30 Posted : 15 March 2015 08:44:20(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Hi all,

I just checked that the lenght from buffer to buffer of the prototype SBB Ce 6/8 III is 20,06 meters = 2006 cm.

http://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBB_Ce_6/8_III

Märklin 3015 lenght from buffer to buffer is 26,6 cm. It is the same lenght as 31859 set Crocodiles:

http://www.maerklin.com/en/prod...etails.html?art_nr=31859


So 2006:26,6 = 75.4:1. Very close to 1:76 regarding the lenght, but I think the width of the hoods and cabin is different scale as it looks different than the newer models. Newer models have narrower hoods vs. model lenght from buffer to buffer than 3015 and other (CCS 800's, 30159, 36159, 31859 and 31860).

Regards,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
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Offline Mark_1602  
#31 Posted : 15 March 2015 16:36:49(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post
....... There's still a mess of different scales in Märklin catalogues now. They do whatever suits them best for each model. I like Märklin, but if I wanted 1:87, I would have chosen another manufacturer.......
Best regards,
Mark


Hi Mark,
Quite right. I choose to purchase whatever suits, regardless of the real scale.

I mix what looks OK. My older Fleischmann rolling stock with die-cast underframes, is apparently 1:82, but does not look totally out of place.
I have no Marklin older than 15 years, so I count myself lucky in some respects
The change by Marklin from 00 to H0, whenever it was, does not effect me.

Out of interest, to what ratio was the 3015 crocodile built?

regards
kimball


Hi Kimball,

I've had a look at two books that were commissioned by Märklin and broadly reflect the views of the company.

Here's an interesting quote from "Dem Spiel auf der Spur: Mythos Modelleisenbahn" by Hatje Cantz, published in 2003:

"Nach dem speziellen Pullmanwagen der britischen Bahngesellschaft LNER erschien nun auch erstmals ein Dampflokmodell, das speziell für den britischen Markt angefertigt wurde [...] Die Lok und der dreiachsige Tender waren etwas voluminöser als die Festlandmodelle und wohl dem speziell englischen Verkleinerungsmaßstab 1:76 angepasst."

Translation: After the special pullman coach of the British railway company LNER, a steam locomotive that was specially made for the British market was released for the first time. [..] The locomotive as well as the three-axle tender were a little bigger and probably matched the special British 1:76 scale.

The quote refers to the famous E 800 LMS and shows that Märklin did not systematically use the 1:76 scale in the 1930s. It seems that they made an exception for one British export model.

Here's an extract from an interview with Friedrich Rieker, the inventor of the Märklin crocodile. He made the first Crocodiles in gauge 0 and I, and the quote is taken from 'Märklin: Die Legende lebt', published in 2009 and edited by Klaus Eckert, who also does the interviews for Märklin TV:

"Alles is ganz neu konstruiert worden. Es war ja auch nichts vorrätig. Also, es hat schon Schwierigkeiten gegeben bei der Entwicklung. Man hat genau berechnen müssen, wie lang man die Lok macht und wie hoch, damit sie überall durchkommt. [...] Es hat nicht genau aufs Zehntel gestimmt. Hauptsache, die Lok hat ein gutes Bild abgegeben und auch funktioniert. Das war das Wichtigste."

Mr Rieker was talking about the first Crocodile prototype he made. Translation: Everything had to be built from scratch. There was nothing in stock. There were definitely problems in designing this locomotive. One had to calculate exactly how long and how high the locomotive needed to be to make sure that it would pass everywhere. [He probably means tunnels, bridges, curves and turnovers.] [...] The measurements were not 100% exact. The main thing was that the locomotive looked good and worked as well. Those were the most important points.

That's typically Märklin, isn't it? As long as the older models looked good and worked without any problems, the company could sell them easily. So the dimensions of the locomotive did not really depend on the scale, but on other factors. Interestingly, Mr Rieker does not mention scale in the interview, and neither of the two books I have quoted above has a chapter on the 1:87 scale, which suggests that Märklin's interest in that is rather limited. In the chapters relating to the early 1950, which I have just reread, the name change to H0 is not even mentioned, and one of those books was published for the 150th anniversary of the company.

The German word 'Spurweite' (= gauge) is typically used instead of scale when those books refer to gauges 00/H0, 0, 1, or 2. The only detailed discussion of scale is about the so-called gauge 'S' that was never commercialised, but the two books disagree about that! It's all a bit confusing, but Märklin doesn't really want to discuss the different scales of its H0 models. Roco isn't my brand, but it's consistent about using the 1:87 scale.
I forgot to say that for gauge Z, Märklin often talks about scale.

Best regards,
Mark

Edited by user 16 March 2015 07:42:24(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Online kimballthurlow  
#32 Posted : 15 March 2015 21:29:48(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,640
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: Janne75 Go to Quoted Post
Hi all, I just checked that the lenght from buffer to buffer of the prototype SBB Ce 6/8 III is 20,06 meters = 2006 cm.
Märklin 3015 lenght from buffer to buffer is 26,6 cm. It is the same lenght as 31859 set Crocodiles:
So 2006:26,6 = 75.4:1. Very close to 1:76 regarding the lenght, but I think the width of the hoods and cabin is different scale as it looks different than the newer models. Newer models have narrower hoods vs. model lenght from buffer to buffer than 3015 and other (CCS 800's, 30159, 36159, 31859 and 31860).
Regards,
Janne


Hi Janne,
I thank you very much for that.
Like other models, ratio for length often differed from ratio for height and width for practical reasons.
As described by Mark in the reply following yours, ratio varied ot suit the operating criteria.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Online kimballthurlow  
#33 Posted : 15 March 2015 21:43:40(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,640
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post

........ The main thing was that the locomotive looked good and worked as well. Those were the most important points.
That's typically Märklin, isn't it? As long as the older models looked good and worked without any problems, the company could sell them easily. So the dimensions of the locomotive did not really depend on the scale, but on other factors. ...
The German word 'Spurweite' (= gauge) is typically used instead of scale when those books refer to gauges Z, 00/H0, 0, 1, or 2. The only detailed discussion of scale is about the so-called gauge 'S' that was never commercialised, but the two books disagree about that! .....
Best regards,
Mark


Hi Mark,
Thank you for that comprehensive reply, very interesting.

In the US, they refer to gauge also in much of their modelling.
As example 0-27 (oh 27, refers to 0 gauge track with stock shortened to run on 27" radius).

Regards S gauge, this is exactly one half of Gauge 1, 1:32, 45mm track.
It is very much alive round the world, and is one of the "true" scales and gauges, at 1:64, running on 22.43mm track.
There is a variant S scale for 3'6" (1067mm) gauge, where 1:64 stock uses H0 gauge track.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline Mark_1602  
#34 Posted : 16 March 2015 08:04:24(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Hi Kimball,

The so-called gauge S is interesting in the history of Märklin. A few models were made by Mr Rieker, but never sold. Experts found out later that the scale was exactly 1:70, so one of my Märklin books says that it wasn't gauge S because in the US that's 1:64 as defined by American standards, and 22.2 mm, not 21. The other book still calls it gauge S in the interview with Mr Rieker, though that's not correct.

The funny thing is that for those few models in the 1:70 scale, they seemed to have cared about the exact scale, but for H0, scale was only approximate from the beginning, and a mix of slightly different scales has been in use since then, with no end to the mess being in sight.

I've just checked my American Märklin catalogue from 1954. Generally it refers to the H0 gauge and avoids discussing scale, except for super models like the BR01 (F800), which is said to be a "true-to-scale reproduction" on p.7, though 1:87 is NOT mentioned in the description of that model. The CCS 800 is simply said to be a "faithful reproduction of its internationally famous prototype"; obviously they were aware of the fact that the CCS 800 wasn't true-to-scale, but I suppose they couldn't have fitted the big motor into a smaller Crocodile.

A few days ago I bought another book about Märklin on Ebay, so when I receive it, I'll check if what it says about scale and the name change.

Best regards,
Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline RayF  
#35 Posted : 16 March 2015 13:20:01(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Where Marklin is concerned most locomotives originating from the 1960s onwards are scaled at 1:87, except for the shortened NOHABs and a couple of other examples. Earlier models from the 1950s can be found that are too tall, and I believe this includes some like the Br23, Br44 and Br01 that were phased out in the 1970s.

As for Wagons and coaches, Marklin settled in the 1960s on a shortened length of 24cm for express coaches to allow them to traverse their R1 curves. Later, in the 1970s, Plastic coaches with a longer length of up to 27cm were produced which would still take R1 curves. Recently Marklin has given in to pressure from scale modellers to extend this length to 28 (ish) cm, using clever off centre pivotting of the bogies to still allow R1 operation.

I believe I have read somehwere that the reason some of the locomotives were made shorter than scale length was to make them match more closely the shorter than scale coaches, but I can't find where I read that.

Contrary to what others believe, I am pretty sure that Marklin designers were working to the accepted scale of 1:87 from the 1950s onwards, only making compromises where they needed to for operational reasons. As the technology has allowed over the years the models furthest from the true scale have been replaced with more accurate versions.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline steventrain  
#36 Posted : 19 March 2015 21:18:31(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,594
Location: United Kingdom
I look at 1955 catalogue - 3015 Crocodile with showing 'HO' on it.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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Offline Martti Mäntylä  
#37 Posted : 21 October 2020 08:25:25(UTC)
Martti Mäntylä

Finland   
Joined: 15/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 393
Location: Uusimaa, Helsinki
Just my thumbs-up to this old thread that I found very interesting and informative. I look at my 60's locos with new eyes now.
- Martti M.
Era III analog & digital (Rocrail, CAN Digital Bahn, Gleisbox/MS2, K83/K84), C & M tracks, some Spur 1
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Offline Jimmy Thompson  
#38 Posted : 21 October 2020 12:56:08(UTC)
Jimmy Thompson

United States   
Joined: 26/03/2019(UTC)
Posts: 579
Location: Florida Classic but Successful Swampland City
Thanks Marti for resurrecting it! A "Good Read" as they say! I seem to recall a related discussion which described the plethora of different O scales which would add even more confusion as to "what (really) is Half-0?" Blink (Of course I can not seem to find it now Unsure ) and that quest for the holy grail: which "0" is the One True Zero leading to the One True Half Zero....LOL
Jimmy T
Analogue; M-track; BR 111; KLVM; Primex; Sarrasani Zirkuswelt
There is a Prototype For Everything
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Offline mike c  
#39 Posted : 21 October 2020 23:09:56(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,865
Location: Montreal, QC
I think that there is a much more simple explanation. Maerklin was making models for the domestic (German) market, but also had a good market share in England. The problem was that the most popular scale in the UK was OO (1/76), so Maerklin did make some products for that market. In Europe, after the war, the most popular scale was the half-0 HO marketed by Trix, so Maerklin decided to focus primarily on that scale.
Initially, the focus was on the width of the wheels and many models continued to be built in the same dimensions as the UK models, but had wheelsets that fit the new 1/87 scale. The 3015 was definitely a model conceived in 1/76 that could run on HO tracks. There were other examples as well.
As I stated, the focus on scale was the dimensions of the tracks. Locomotives, coaches and cars continued to be produced in reduced length versions to better handle the tight radii. This became known as scale length. Ideally, the models were to be rendered in a scale of 1/87, but the length was rendered in a scale of 1/100 or even 1/120. In many cases, this meant that the model had less compartments than the prototype, but the idea was to make a model that looked like the original, but was not an exact match.
The standard for scale length eventually became 1/100, but over time, companies looked to make longer models, partially to differentiate themselves from the competition, partially because companies, especially DC brands introduced wider radius curves and partially because new techniques had been developed in model making, which allowed for the use of off centre pivoting bogies, which allowed for the use of longer coaches/cars without the very noticeable overhang that many modellers had criticized. This allowed Maerklin to move the large part of it's models to the 1/100 scale length.
In the 1970s, companies like Ade and Liliput brought out exact 1/87 models, with Roco following in the 1980s. At some point, Maerklin made the decision that models with a prototype with an actual length of 24m or less could be rendered in 1/87 using the off centre pivot bogie and they started making some models in 1/87, while the majority remained 1/100. Since the early 2000s, Maerklin decided that coaches longer than 24m (prototype) could be rendered at a length of 28cm (1:93), which had been the Fleischmann standard for UIC-X type coaches. Some prototypes were a little longer than 26.4m and those models continued to be made to match the length of the other models, so the UIC-X Restaurants were made 28cm long, which is shorter than it should ideally be. Purists then started referring to the Maerklin scale as 28cm instead of 1:93 as not all models were exact in that scale length.
The other problem is that designers have occasionally failed to render all dimensions correctly. While the scale length of the width of windows and doors should be the same as that of the coach (1/100, 1:93 or 1/87), there have been a number of occasions where the window or door height was rendered in that scale, when it should have been rendered in 1/87. The 42991 bar coach and the 43874 SBB Restaurant are blatant examples of this.
I use larger radii and most often a floor layout, so I can use exact scale 1/87 models and am a big fan. I have a small test layout (oval) which uses track from a Start Set, so the longest I can run there are the 28cm Maerklin cars. I am happy that I can run 1/87, because there are a lot of models that are not available in the scale reduced length.

Regards

Mike C
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